kaitak744
Posts: 2086
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:32 pm

Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 12:18 pm

Will there be any future orders for the 717? Is this aircraft truly dead, with -14 orders this year?

And weren't there some words about a 717-300 late last year?
 
User avatar
JBo
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:23 am

Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 12:26 pm

Where've you been?

Boeing announced several months ago that the 717 production line would be closed once all current orders (which I believe are comprised of AirTran and Midwest, not sure if any others have outstanding orders yet) are completed.

Unless someone comes out with a huge last-minute order, I doubt the line would remain open. Plus, given the fact that Boeing already announced the closing of production, I doubt anyone would order an aircraft that's about to be discontinued.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8576
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 12:30 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
Will there be any future orders for the 717? Is this aircraft truly dead, with -14 orders this year?

Those are 14 cancellations from orders signed in past years.

The aircraft is truely dead. Boeing has announced they are taking no additional orders and production will cease with the last delivery.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
And weren't there some words about a 717-300 late last year?

Pitched to a few customers (FL) but lacked the payload/range uplift AirTran needed. They basically wanted 73G performance in size from the 717 platform, but Boeing wasn't going to invest a considerable sum to make their own products redundant.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18198
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 12:55 pm

I think it's sad, it's a terrific plane.

I think it fell victim to the love affair with RJ's - and look where that went.

I always had this mad dream that Frontier would buy Midwest and keep the 717's. Everyone would have had a conniption fit, of course - an LCC with a two type fleet! - but that is what JetBlue is doing.

They could have kept the A319/A318 for the long distance and heavy volume routes, and put the B717 on the shorter hops from DEN.

I think they'd look grand with critters on the tails.

Oh, well.  sigh 

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8576
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:18 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 3):
I think it's sad, it's a terrific plane.

I think it fell victim to the love affair with RJ's - and look where that went.

My thoughts exactly...

I think short sightedness on the part of fleet planners has been the downfall of many great products. The demise of the 717 and modern, fuel-efficent turboprops seem like horrible losses in hindsight.
 
b6sea
Posts: 348
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:44 pm

Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:28 pm

I think it would be cool for Boeing to introduce something of a small version of the 737 (maybe when they make the new one... however many years out that is) that could compete with the EMB 190 and the Canadair C-class? But I agree, it would have been a good plane but it was introduced at the precise wrong time.

-Chans
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:29 pm

Quoting JBo (Reply 1):
Unless someone comes out with a huge last-minute order, I doubt the line would remain open.

Not possible... the long lead time parts for the plane are already no longer being built.

N
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:38 pm

I don't think Boeing was ever fully commited to the B-717-200, as it competed directly with their own designed B-737-600, as well as the A-318. Boeing inherited the program when they bought out Mad Dog. The, then, MD-95 already had the 50 airplane launch order (and options for 50 more) from Value Jet, which became Air Tran. So, Boeing had to build the MD-95, but renamed it the B-717 (to the displeasure of the KC-135 community) to fit within their own airplane line up. Later came the TWA, Aloha, Midwest, and other orders.

Boeing found itself in the unusual position of marketing to airplanes with the same number of seats, the B-717-200 and the B-737-600, while at the same time, trying to compete against the A-318 and the bigger (and cheaper) RJs. So, the 90-110 seat airplane market became flooded with choices. Combined, the A-318, B-717-200, and B-737-600 all had miserable sales records because there were just to many competing airplane types in this size market.

Today, the surviving airplane types (A-318, B-737-600, and E-190) may do a little better in sales as the market is still the same size, but with fewer choices to compete against.
 
777ER
Crew
Posts: 9855
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:04 pm

Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:45 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 3):
and put the B717 on the shorter hops from DEN.

Same could be said for Jetconnect (QF) for domestic operations, instead of B733s and shortly B734s
Head Forum Moderator
moderators@airliners.net
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:53 pm

The fact that the 717's block costs (at least according to Airtran, the biggest 717 operator) are identical to the 73G doesn't help it, either.

It may have been intended to have lower operating costs, but in practice, it doesn't.

Steve
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18198
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:01 pm

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 9):
The fact that the 717's block costs (at least according to Airtran, the biggest 717 operator) are identical to the 73G doesn't help it, either.

It didn't stop Airtran making money. Their fortunes were based on the 717.

It could be argued that their profits have gone down since they got the 737's - but I'm sure that's just happenstance and the price of oil.

Then again, the RJ's have a very high CASM, but that didn't stop the love affair with the majors.

 Smile

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 1529
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:03 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 8):
Same could be said for Jetconnect (QF) for domestic operations, instead of B733s and shortly B734s

Definately agree, I think that the 717 is very well suited to NZ domestic routes. Of course I doubt NZ will be buying any, leasing any e.t.c but maybe Qantas could put some of those Jetstar/Qantaslink 717's on the NZ network.
 
onedude
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:28 am

Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:25 pm

I know when QF inherited the 717's from Impulse, that they found adding galleys and catering added a significant weight issue to profitable routes for the 717. I also understand that they do not operate that well in extreme temperature conditions; having said that the 717s are on the PER/PHE run in WA and are slotted for DRW/ASP/AYQ/CNS so be interesting to see how they perform.

The NZ market cannot sustain anything bigger than a 737 domestically, hence AN NZ running 146s for so many years. Be interesting to see the 717 fleet in NZ however suspect for QF that they would not win market share in the crucial business market, also QF intersperse Jet Connect aircraft on selected routes across the Tasman so fleet utilisation becomes constricted.
 
kiwiandrew

Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:31 pm

Quoting Onedude (Reply 12):
Be interesting to see the 717 fleet in NZ however suspect for QF that they would not win market share in the crucial business market,

3+2 seating on a 717 ( or 2+3 , I can never remember which) would be pretty attractive against the 3+3 NZ offer on the 733s - higher frequencies with a smaller capacity a/c could attract a lot of the corporates who would like to fly QF on the AKL-WLG / AKL-CHC routes but have shied away from them in the past due to low frequency services .
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18198
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:53 pm

Quoting Onedude (Reply 12):
I also understand that they do not operate that well in extreme temperature conditions;

That's curious. The 717 did great for Airtran on ATL/DEN - 1100 miles, about the limit of the aircraft's range.

DEN is hot and high in summer, and I grant we're not talking some Australian temperatures, but then DEN is colder - by far - than any Australian winter would be.

And if QF are putting it into Darwin and Cairns, they must feel it handle the heat.

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2005-11-25 10:54:20]
aeternum nauta
 
EI747SYDNEY
Posts: 686
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:28 pm

Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:11 pm

Flew the 717 when I was flying out of Koh Samui to Bangkok with Bangkok airways and it was a nice ride.

I know Boeing took over Long beach operations in the 90's. Can anyone tell what the main differences are between the 717 and the MD-80 family?

Rob  wave 
''Live life on the edge, Live each and every day like it's your last, Hell you only live once''
 
stuckinMAF
Posts: 1022
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:49 pm

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:31 pm

The major indication from the start that the 717 would be short-lived was that Northwest didn't pick it up as a replacement for their DC-9-30's. That was the main market McD was targeting, they saw it as a natural like-for-like replacement for about 400 planes. There was also the hope that the military would see it as a cheap way of replacing their C-9's. It still ended up being a successful program because development costs were extremely low due to it being a very mature design. It made money for McD and for Boeing and it is still making money for it's operators.

Long live the 717! Hope they stay in the sky as long (or longer) than their predecessors!
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
Oryx
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:25 pm

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:04 pm

Hot and high shouldn't be so bad as it has one of the highest trust to weight rations of all civil airliners (only topped by 752 and ... the Concorde).
 
MD88Captain
Posts: 1224
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:50 am

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:56 am

The 717, while a fine aricraft, cannot compete with the new 100 seat Embrarer. The 717 OEW is something like 6,000lbs more for the same payload.
 
C210Pilot
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:43 am

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:22 am

**sigh**
The Demise of the DC-9 Family of aircraft. At least Northwest still has some of the 40 year old DC-9-30's and a handful of DC-9-10's (although I think all the 10's are parked right now.)

The DC-9 family is, IMHO, a very venerable plane. But, onward and upward....
 
freedom4all
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:14 pm

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:24 am

In a word no.....stick a fork in the 717, its done
long live the 747!
 
User avatar
ODwyerPW
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:30 am

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:25 am

I would think the Jungle Jets would be a good fit for NZ.

How does the CASM of the 717 compare against the E195....oh never mind..don't answer it..I'll research the forums FIRST. I'm sure it's been covered.

Too bad about the whole 717 naming thing too. Boeing could have used that for the Y1 and 797 for Y3.
learning never stops.
 
milesrich
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:46 am

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:46 am

The knock on the 717 seems to be its range, but what percentage of mainline operations in the USA are longer than the ATL-DEN segment?

Furthermore, how much more costly is it to operate the 737-700 than the 717? The 717 seats 100+ so it requires 3 F/A's, but does the extra range and payload of the -700 justify its additional costs? Or was the timing of 717 its real problem, as no legacies have the money to purchase a great number of new aircraft?
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18198
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:55 am

Quoting Milesrich (Reply 22):
The knock on the 717 seems to be its range, but what percentage of mainline operations in the USA are longer than the ATL-DEN segment?

I don't think it is a knock - I think it is a plus, used properly. The A318 has a similar range to the A320 and, as noted above, has not sold in big numbers.

However, at about the same time that Airtran began ATL/DEN, they also started ATL/LAS and ATL/LAX.

This was before they had 737's, and they had to lease A320's from Ryan International, because the 717 couldn't make it.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18198
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:48 am

The only way (for an outsider) to find out the 717 costs per available seat mile - CASM - is to find an airline that operates only the 717, and also publishes their financials.

This is Airtran, and it is for the period October/December 2002 (their 4Q), when fuel costs were not yet a major issue.

All these numbers are including fuel, although Southwest was already feeling the benefit of hedges:

http://www.prnewswire.com/airtran/20030128b.shtml

Airtran had a CASM of 8.4 cents.

For comparisons: America West (mixed fleet) was 8.26 cents.

Frontier (their 3Q) mixed fleet, mostly 737's: 8.28 cents.

Southwest (obviously all 737's): 7.47

JetBlue (all A320) was 6.32.

To put this in perspective, in the same period Delta had a CASM of 10.4 cents and Continental was 9.05.

Obviously, there are a lot of caveats to all this. The JetBlue figure is lower in part because of their "young" wages bill.

But Airtran had not started the A320 leasing and had not received any 737's - it was an all 717 fleet - so it as as close as I can get to a "pure" cost.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
ElGreco
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:32 am

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:54 am

Quoting C210Pilot (Reply 19):
**sigh**
The Demise of the DC-9 Family of aircraft. At least Northwest still has some of the 40 year old DC-9-30's and a handful of DC-9-10's (although I think all the 10's are parked right now.)

The DC-9 family is, IMHO, a very venerable plane. But, onward and upward....

So this time the end of the Caravelle design.
When you are right alone, you are wrong
 
access-air
Posts: 1576
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:13 am

Northwest should have used the B717 for the replacement of their DC9s.
American should have used the TWA machines plus many more to replace the Fokker 100s they eventually parked as well.
I can understand the Boeing might see the 717-200 as direct competition to their 737-600 product but just how many US operators are there of the 737-600??? For that fact how many are there worldwide???
I think thast SAS has some.....Sort of like the 10 and ONLY 10 Douglas DC9-21s that SAS had Douglas build for them. (one was written off).
The B717-200 is a good proven design. I dont believe that Boeing has the understanding the recignize that there was a large potential for the plane. You can only earn orders for a plane if you market it. I guess Boeing has bigger and better things to put all their rescources into. 777, 787, 747-800.

Oh and by the way, not all the DC9s that Northwest has are 30 series. They have a sizebable fleet of 50 series and even some 40 series. However all the series 10s have been parked.

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
EnviroTO
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:11 pm

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:47 am

There haven't been any 707, 717, or 727 sales lately. I guess Boeing is really on the downhill Big grin
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:17 am

Quoting EI747SYDNEY (Reply 15):
Can anyone tell what the main differences are between the 717 and the MD-80 family?

Engines, Cockpit, Cabin, Pretty much everything in the interior except for the doors and windows.
Puhdiddle
 
md90fan
Posts: 2798
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:15 am

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:15 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):
I think short sightedness on the part of fleet planners has been the downfall of many great products. The demise of the 717 and modern, fuel-efficent turboprops seem like horrible losses in hindsight.

MD-90 too  tombstone 

Quoting Mariner (Reply 14):
That's curious. The 717 did great for Airtran on ATL/DEN - 1100 miles, about the limit of the aircraft's range.

I though it was longer than that, is that the range from DEN due to its temp. and elevation?

Quoting EI747SYDNEY (Reply 15):
I know Boeing took over Long beach operations in the 90's. Can anyone tell what the main differences are between the 717 and the MD-80 family?

The late model SV MD-90's have the same Honeywell (I think) Glass LCD cockpit as the 717's but there are no pix in the Database  Sad

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
Frontier (their 3Q) mixed fleet, mostly 737's: 8.28 cents.

Frontier (F9) just retired their last Boeing product this year making them all Airbus (A318/9) ,excluding QX CR7's of course  wink 

-Devan the MD90fan
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18198
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:20 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 29):


Quoting Mariner (Reply 14):That's curious. The 717 did great for Airtran on ATL/DEN - 1100 miles, about the limit of the aircraft's range.
I though it was longer than that, is that the range from DEN due to its temp. and elevation?

I cannot say. Frontier's route map says that DEN/ATL is 1200 miles, but Great Circle told it was 1100. So I went with the lesser figure because I didn't want people shouting at me.

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 29):
Frontier (F9) just retired their last Boeing product this year making them all Airbus (A318/9) ,excluding QX CR7's of course   

I am very aware of that.

The financial quarter under discussion - the quarter I used for the CASM of each airline - was the last quarter of 2002, when Frontier still had a majorly 737 fleet.

The whole point of it was to use a quarter when Airtan still had an all 717 fleet.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
vatveng
Posts: 1093
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:49 pm

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:51 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
But Airtran had not started the A320 leasing and had not received any 737's - it was an all 717 fleet - so it as as close as I can get to a "pure" cost.

In 2002 AirTran had not yet retired its last DC-9. The '9s flew until late 2003. A search of the archives brings this up:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...ion/read.main/1245482/6/#ID1245482

On AirTran's 10th birthday (Oct. 2003) they still had three DC-9 in the air.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18198
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:21 pm

Quoting Vatveng (Reply 31):
On AirTran's 10th birthday (Oct. 2003) they still had three DC-9 in the air.

Yes, I know, but give me a break - since quesations were raised about the cost of the 717, I was trying to find out a CASM for the 717 and at that stage Airtran had a "majorly" 717 fleet.

And since the 717 is a variant of the DC9 -

http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=276

- that quarter was as close as I'm going to get, because I didn't want the figures sullied by the 737.

If you have a better idea, please - be my guest - you do it.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
BoomBoom
Posts: 2459
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 32):
Yes, I know, but give me a break -

Give YOU a break! You who are forever splitting hairs, pedantically arguing what the meaning of "is" is and picking nits?

And you're asking for a break? Give me a break! LOL!!!
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18198
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Will There Be More Orders For The Boeing 717?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:47 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 33):
Give YOU a break! You who are forever splitting hairs, pedantically arguing what the meaning of "is" is and picking nits?

Okay, don't give me a break.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta