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PanAm_DC10
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Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:30 pm

With the A350 favoured, at this stage, over the B787 according to this report;

By Ben Sills
Nov. 25 (Bloomberg) -- Air Madrid is negotiating the purchase of 15 Airbus A350 airplanes in a 1.3 billion euro ($15.2 billion) deal, La Gaceta de los Negocios reported.
The deal would be the third major order from Spain this year which has gone to Airbus, La Gaceta said, citing Air Madrid chairman Jose Luis Carrillo.
``The discussions with Airbus are already fairly advanced,'' La Gaceta cited Carrillo as saying, although Boeing is also offering ``very advantageous conditions'' for 15 787 Dreamliner aircraft.
Carrillo said that he expects to choose the A350 and the first planes will be due for delivery in 2010, La Gaceta added.


I also believe the reporter should redo the math on his FX conversion as 1.3bn Euro does not equate to US$15.2bn, that or there's something about aircraft pricing that we've all missed  Smile

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astuteman
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:06 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
I also believe the reporter should redo the math on his FX conversion as 1.3bn Euro does not equate to US$15.2bn, that or there's something about aircraft pricing that we've all missed

This is Airbus's new strategy in list price discount management, of course...  Smile
I believe EK + QR are trying to negotiate slightly better terms for their A350's, but Airbus are playing hard-ball.....
 
n1786b
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:10 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
The deal would be the third major order from Spain this year which has gone to Airbus, La Gaceta said, citing Air Madrid chairman Jose Luis Carrillo.

I'll have to remember that the next time some Airbus fan whines about the Japanese ordering the 787.

- N1786B
 
manni
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:23 pm

Looks like the Iberian penninsula will be A350 heaven in a few years time, with Air Europa, Eurofly, TAP and probaply Air Madrid all ordering it. One can assume that Iberia sooner or later will choose the A350 above the 787 aswell, since it looks like they will be an all Airbus operator.
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WINGS
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:54 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
The deal would be the third major order from Spain this year which has gone to Airbus, La Gaceta said, citing Air Madrid chairman Jose Luis Carrillo.

If we include Taps order for 7x A330 + 10x A350 that would add up to 4 major orders from the Iberian Pennisula.

IBERIA 10x A318, 7x A319, 10x A320, 3x A321, (+ 49 options)
TAP PORTUGAL 10x A350, 7x A330
AIR EUROPA 10X A350
AIR MADRID 15x A350

Total 65 frames (35 orders for the A350)

Not a bad number from this part of the world.

Regards,
Wings
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:57 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 3):
Looks like the Iberian penninsula will be A350 heaven in a few years time, with Air Europa, Eurofly, TAP and probaply Air Madrid all ordering it.

Just one correction Manni, Eurofly is an Italian Airline. Italy does not make part of the Iberian Penninsula. Only Portugal and Spain make part of the Iberian Penninsula.

Regards,
Wings
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:17 pm

It looks like the A350 is a true replacement for both the A330/A340. The A350 also seems to the preferred airplane for flight to Latin America. This has been demonstrated by the orders from Tap Portugal, Air Europa and now rumors of a potential Air Madrid order.

One has to ask ourselves, how long will it be until Iberia orders any A350/B787.







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Wings
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:21 pm

I am sure they will buy the A350.
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manni
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:32 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 5):
Just one correction Manni, Eurofly is an Italian Airline.

Thanks Wings, I was thinking that Eurofly is a spanish airline rather than Italy being part of the Iberian penninsula.
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keesje
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:52 pm

Chairman Jose Luis Carrillo:
"Nothing is finished as yet, the negotiations take a long time, but in principle we're going for a homogeneous fleet of A350s".

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1132922967.html


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PlaneDane
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:45 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 9):
Chairman Jose Luis Carrillo:
"Nothing is finished as yet, the negotiations take a long time, but in principle we're going for a homogeneous fleet of A350s".

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1132922967.html



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What competent airline chairman would make such an imprudent statement like this?!

If Jose was truly negotiating on behalf of his airline to get the best deal with Airbus, he'd never admit to "going for a homogeneous fleet of A350s" and risk paying higher prices.

Basically, now Airbus should not need to offer the A350 to Air Madrid at a competitive price because the B787 is not really being considered by this airline.

Honestly, like for most all the airlines in this particular region, Boeing really has no chance whatsoever. But we already knew this, anyway.
 
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 6):
One has to ask ourselves, how long will it be until Iberia orders any A350/B787.

I don't believe anyone thinks Iberia will be ordering the 787...
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A360
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:16 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 10):
Honestly, like for most all the airlines in this particular region, Boeing really has no chance whatsoever. But we already knew this, anyway.

That might be right... but since Airbus doesn't really has a chance in the Japan market (which is MUCH bigger), nor in the majority of the american market (AA, DL, CO), (which is HUGE), in that area Boeing is still much more favored than Airbus is.

And honnestly I think it really sucks... be it an airline who only buys A or B... it's just sad to see that many times there is no competition.

PS: Please don't say that europe buys all airbus, because it's not true... just need to see which company was the first to operate the 77W... Yes, it was the French (where airbus headquarters are located) flag carrier...
And that is great!  Wink

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A360
 
n1786b
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:39 am

Quoting A360 (Reply 12):
Please don't say that europe buys all airbus, because it's not true...

And please don't say Airbus has no chance in a majority of the American market - just where are some of Airbus's best customers located (UAL, NWA, USAirways, IFLC, GECAS, FedEx...)

- n1786b
 
Lemurs
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:49 am

Quoting N1786b (Reply 13):
And please don't say Airbus has no chance in a majority of the American market - just where are some of Airbus's best customers located (UAL, NWA, USAirways, IFLC, GECAS, FedEx...)

Though you have to admit, there's not a lot of widebody in there. Leaving out the leasing companies (who care about what their customers want more the airframe itself), NW and US have some 330's, FedEx and AA have some 300's, and that's about it. NW isn't exactly a loyal customer either. Both A & B appreciate that they're very fickle and will only pick the best airplane for their needs every time they need a replacement for certain ops. Boeing learned this the hard way with the big A319/320 order, and Airbus learned it the hard way with the big 787 order. NW is many things, Airbus loyal isn't one of them.
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A360
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:05 am

Quoting N1786b (Reply 13):
And please don't say Airbus has no chance in a majority of the American market - just where are some of Airbus's best customers located (UAL, NWA, USAirways, IFLC, GECAS, FedEx...)

I was referring specifically to AA, CO and DL, that why I put them between parenthesis.
Those are some of the biggest companies in the world (being AA the biggest) and they just won't buy anything other than Boeing.
 banghead 

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A360
 
TaromA380
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:38 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 10):
What competent airline chairman would make such an imprudent statement like this?!

If Jose was truly negotiating on behalf of his airline to get the best deal with Airbus, he'd never admit to "going for a homogeneous fleet of A350s" and risk paying higher prices.

Or maybe the deal il already sealed, and all this is bla-bla.

Or maybe Airbus will always treat well the all-Airbus carriers, for obvious reasons (like B in Japan), no matter how dumb their CEO are.

 Smile
 
anxebla
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:16 am

Any news from NM must always be taken in doubt. I wonder where the money comes from to pay 15 B-787 or A-350  silly 
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atmx2000
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:31 am

Quoting A360 (Reply 12):
That might be right... but since Airbus doesn't really has a chance in the Japan market (which is MUCH bigger), nor in the majority of the american market (AA, DL, CO), (which is HUGE), in that area Boeing is still much more favored than Airbus is.



Quoting A360 (Reply 12):
PS: Please don't say that europe buys all airbus, because it's not true... just need to see which company was the first to operate the 77W... Yes, it was the French (where airbus headquarters are located) flag carrier...
And that is great!  

Of course that could be part of a strategy aimed at keeping the HUGE American market open to Airbus. Throw Boeing a bone and let them and American trade officials and politicians think they have a chance, while pushing Euro airlines elsewhere to buy Airbus.  stirthepot 

Quoting A360 (Reply 15):
I was referring specifically to AA, CO and DL, that why I put them between parenthesis.
Those are some of the biggest companies in the world (being AA the biggest) and they just won't buy anything other than Boeing

Many of them did buy something other than Boeing, and I don't just mean McDD. It should be noted that American manufacturers had dominant marketshare in the US market from the getgo, so it is only natural that they would retain marketshare. On the otherhand American manufacturers had a huge marketshare in Europe, but since Airbus has shown up, that has seemed to slip away.
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A360
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:53 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 18):
Of course that could be part of a strategy aimed at keeping the HUGE American market open to Airbus.

Right.... the fact that AF has a huge 777 fleet, and more to be delivered is all part of a grand plan...

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 18):
Many of them did buy something other than Boeing, and I don't just mean McDD. It should be noted that American manufacturers had dominant marketshare in the US market from the getgo, so it is only natural that they would retain marketshare. On the otherhand American manufacturers had a huge marketshare in Europe, but since Airbus has shown up, that has seemed to slip away.

Before the 320/330/340 american carriers were basicly all that existed for western carriers to buy. The A300 and A310 had a limited mission and weren't very hot sellers.

It's only natural that carriers operated all american made planes... and there was nothing wrong with that.

But today the battle is not Boeing vs MD... it's Boeing vs Airbus, so all companies should consider both.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 18):
It should be noted that American manufacturers had dominant marketshare in the US market from the getgo, so it is only natural that they would retain marketshare.

American manufacturers had a dominant marketshare all over the world. It's not natural that they can retain that marketshare if competition comes to the market (airbus).

It it was like that, Airbus would never had succeded.

Regards:
A360
 
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:57 am

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 14):
Though you have to admit, there's not a lot of widebody in there. Leaving out the leasing companies (who care about what their customers want more the airframe itself), NW and US have some 330's, FedEx and AA have some 300's, and that's about it. NW isn't exactly a loyal customer either.

Lately it seems that many Airbus wide body customers in various parts of the world would fall into the non-loyal customer category.
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MidnightMike
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:30 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
Carrillo said that he expects to choose the A350 and the first planes will be due for delivery in 2010, La Gaceta added.

I thought that I read somewhere that Airbus had no more slots for the A350? Either way, the market is speaking very loudly for both the A350 & the 787, more fuel efficient aircraft, twin engine fuel efficient aircraft is what the market is looking for.
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atmx2000
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:00 am

Quoting A360 (Reply 19):
Right.... the fact that AF has a huge 777 fleet, and more to be delivered is all part of a grand plan...

Yup, those French are craft bastards  Wink

Quoting A360 (Reply 19):
Before the 320/330/340 american carriers were basicly all that existed for western carriers to buy. The A300 and A310 had a limited mission and weren't very hot sellers.

858 orders and 801 deliveries isn't exactly terrible. McDD would be around if they sold that many aircraft. And a nice chunk of those went to American carriers, including around 110 that went to US airlines.

Quoting A360 (Reply 19):
American manufacturers had a dominant marketshare all over the world. It's not natural that they can retain that marketshare if competition comes to the market (airbus).

It it was like that, Airbus would never had succeded.

It probably wouldn't have without subsidies, political pressure to buy domestic in Germany and France, and the openness of the American market.
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A360
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:46 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 22):
It probably wouldn't have without subsidies, political pressure to buy domestic in Germany and France, and the openness of the American market.

As for the openness of the American market, that's a great thing about america... that's why I don't like it to change.  Wink
AA bought A300's.... will we see them buying more airbus?

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A360
 
atmx2000
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:52 am

Quoting A360 (Reply 23):
AA bought A300's.... will we see them buying more airbus?

Well, they didn't do much for their cause with the handling of the A300 crash in 2001.
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A388
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:51 pm

Almost every major U.S. airline has become all-Boeing, so much for the openness of the American market. The same can be said about Airbus in Europe, so it levels out a bit even though the U.S. major airlines are much bigger than the European airlines.

A388
 
kappel
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:53 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 25):
so much for the openness of the American market

Especialy with those "gentlemen agreements" Boeing has with AA and CO.
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atmx2000
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:06 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 25):
Almost every major U.S. airline has become all-Boeing, so much for the openness of the American market. The same can be said about Airbus in Europe, so it levels out a bit even though the U.S. major airlines are much bigger than the European airlines.

Right that is why three of the US majors have large modern A320 fleets, and two of them fly Airbus widebodies (plus AA, but they aren't likely to buy Airbus in the future), and one of them is moving in an all-Airbus direction. Can you point to me any European major half the size of US Airways that is moving in an all Boeing direction?
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manni
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:13 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 25):
Almost every major U.S. airline has become all-Boeing, so much for the openness of the American market. The same can be said about Airbus in Europe

I disagree, KLM/AF have a huge number of widebody Boeing aircraft in their fleet, KLM has no Airbusses with the exception of half a dozen A330's. British Airways has a massive widebody fleet of only Boeing Aircraft. Lufthansa operates a huge 747 fleet and a 737 fleet, aswell as a big fleet of MD11's with their cargo division. And that was just the top 3 (in size) of the European airlines.On the LCC side Ryanair and recently announced DBA will have in the near future hundreds of 737's combined.

At the wrong side of the Atlantic  Wink you have the LCC with Jetblue and Frontier who have a big fleet of Airbusses and Northwest, United and US Airways all operating a narrowbody fleet build around the A320. Northwest and US Airways both operate a number of A330's too, altough combined it's not nearly half as much as BA's massive Boeing fleet.
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zvezda
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:13 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 18):
Of course that could be part of a strategy aimed at keeping the HUGE American market open to Airbus. Throw Boeing a bone and let them and American trade officials and politicians think they have a chance, while pushing Euro airlines elsewhere to buy Airbus.



Quoting A360 (Reply 19):
Right.... the fact that AF has a huge 777 fleet, and more to be delivered is all part of a grand plan...

There is far too much backstabbing in European politics for such a conspiracy to ever succeed. AF bought B777s because they were the right solution to AF's business requirement -- despite political pressure, not because of it. It's really that simple.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:37 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
There is far too much backstabbing in European politics for such a conspiracy to ever succeed. AF bought B777s because they were the right solution to AF's business requirement -- despite political pressure, not because of it. It's really that simple.

But if they did cave to the political pressure, what do you think would be the result on this side of the Atlantic? The realization that European markets, particularly those of most of the principal partners in Airbus, are not accessible to Boeing. The result would be a trade war far nastier than the dispute over subsidies, which would end in a closing of markets to each others products. I think some French officials are smart enough to see that. Whether they acted upon that belief is another issue all together.
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keesje
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 30):
realization that European markets, particularly those of most of the principal partners in Airbus, are not accessible to Boeing

Germany, UK, France & Spain are bulking of thousands of 737, 747, 757, 767, 777 soon 787 and whoever offers a good product for a good price. Including launch customers for B737, B747-8, B777-200ER, B777-300ER, B777-200LRF, and early customers for many more. Lets not ignore reality to make a point. Europeans are not so patriotic.
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aerokiwi
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:03 am

Perhaps Airbus simply has not made the type of aircraft that are needed by American customers, whereas Boeing is uniquely attuned to this market (which is to be expected).

Consider the modern product offering for US airlines:

A321: Earlier version didn't have the range and ability to operate in hot 'n' high conditions that allow for deployment throughout the US, eg. flights to Las Vegas, Denver and Phoenix. I believe that has since been rectified but was too late for most fleet decisions in this category. The product was also very late to the market in it's earliest version (compared to the 757)

A330-200: An excellent long range aircraft, but for the sakes of fleet commonality, there isn't a short-range version available for the domestic/intra-North American market.

A330-300: Too large for the domestic market in most cases, though still more suited to shorter-medium range flights. Good for the Atlantic though.

A340-200/300: US carriers rarely needed the range of this aircraft and becasue the A340/330 family didn't offer shorter range variants (ie. didn't offer the product range that Boeing offered), then US airlines turned to Boeing.

A340-500/600: The -500 is a niche aircraft in anyone's books (as is the 772LR) and the -600 is probably too large for most airlines and without the Airbus range already in service would be something of an oddball in the fleet.

Meanwhile, Boeing has been bale to offer aircraft ideally suited for North American carriers, offering -ER versions for longer range flights and non-ER for domestic/intra-NA flights.

I've always believed the lack of offering in the 200-250 seat area in both short/medium and long range versions has been a major handicap for Airbus in North America. And I believe they are making the same mistake again by focusing on the 250+ seat, long-range segment with the A350.

Don't get me wrong, the A350 is shaping up to be an excellent A340/A330/772 replacement, but many of these former models have only just come onto the market anyway and the A350 doesn't really address the need by airlines for smaller capacity, lower range aircraft.

So again, because of Airbus's lack of product range, I believe airlines in North America especially will lean Boeing's way.

Edit for spelling.

[Edited 2005-11-26 23:08:07]
 
A388
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:16 pm

Manni & Atmx2000, I agree with you, that's why I said in the end that it levels out a bit.

I was only referring to the major airlines. Even though BA, KL/AF and LH have large Boeing fleets as well, when looking at the major U.S. airlines 3 out of the 6 have an all-Boeing fleet, compared to 2 in Europe (KL/BA) who also operate Airbus aircraft besides Boeing aircraft. AF has a large 744/777 fleet but the 744 will eventually make room for the A380 and probably more 773ER as well. LH also has a large 744 but these will also be (partially) replaced by the A380 and who knows maybe even the A346.

So, yes, I agree with your statements but just by looking at the numbers, Boeing is the clear winner with U.S. major airlines with a smaller percentage operating a mixed fleet of Airbus and Boeing aircraft like you have rightfully pointed out.

A388
 
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garpd
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:22 pm

Pissing matches and AvB debates aside, I see this as an Airbus order.

Why? Well Air Madrid operate all Airbus, they're still relatively young with a small fleet and commonality (what little the A350 will offer) is still a priority.

I tell it how I see it.
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atmx2000
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:26 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 31):
Germany, UK, France & Spain are bulking of thousands of 737, 747, 757, 767, 777 soon 787 and whoever offers a good product for a good price. Including launch customers for B737, B747-8, B777-200ER, B777-300ER, B777-200LRF, and early customers for many more. Lets not ignore reality to make a point. Europeans are not so patriotic.

Let us not include orders made before Airbus existed or Airbus/European industry offered a competitive product. As Airbus expanded its offerings to cover the full range, orders declined. Maybe this was simply that Airbus offered a product that matched European airlines needs. Maybe not. But there is no doubt the trend is there, and that there was a dramatic drop off in orders from the flag carriers of continental European airlines, except when adding to existing fleets of a particular type, since the 90s. The only thing obfuscating the trend is AF's 777 orders. UK is a different matter altogether and has everything to do with political culture and economic mindset of the UK which leads to less pressure being placed on BA and BA making more independent decisions.

Quoting A388 (Reply 33):
Manni & Atmx2000, I agree with you, that's why I said in the end that it levels out a bit.

I was only referring to the major airlines. Even though BA, KL/AF and LH have large Boeing fleets as well, when looking at the major U.S. airlines 3 out of the 6 have an all-Boeing fleet, compared to 2 in Europe (KL/BA) who also operate Airbus aircraft besides Boeing aircraft. AF has a large 744/777 fleet but the 744 will eventually make room for the A380 and probably more 773ER as well. LH also has a large 744 but these will also be (partially) replaced by the A380 and who knows maybe even the A346.

Only two US majors have all Boeing fleets, and both of them have ordered Airbus in the past. But I still don't see any thing like the mirror image of US Airways, a major airline moving in an all Airbus direction, in Europe. While it doesn't have an all Airbus fleet currently, it will in the future.
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A388
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:40 pm

While AA does operate the AB6 it will be no surprise these will eventually will be phased out to make room for the 787, so AA can be ruled here. No Airbus order will come from AA. As for your question about a European airline going for an all-Airbus fleet, IB is a perfect example of a major European airline going all-Airbus (eventually). It wouldn't surprise me if LH will eventually also become an all-Airbus operator, even though I've read here that LH doesn't want to be dependant on one aircraft manufacturer. I still would like to see a Boeing order coming from LH before I really believe it.

A388
 
atmx2000
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:46 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 36):
As for your question about a European airline going for an all-Airbus fleet, IB is a perfect example of a major European airline going all-Airbus (eventually). It wouldn't surprise me if LH will eventually also become an all-Airbus operator, even though I've read here that LH doesn't want to be dependant on one aircraft manufacturer. I still would like to see a Boeing order coming from LH before I really believe it

I was looking for an example of an EU major (that flies intercontinental, not short haul LCC) moving in the all Boeing direction.
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A388
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:08 pm

Oww I'm sorry, in that case you are right my friend. I would have said BA but as they have ordered the A319/321 this isn't the case here. I do find the acquisition of the Airbus aircraft very odd as the 737NG would have been a more logical step when looking at it on a fleet standardisation point of view.

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atmx2000
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:41 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 38):
I do find the acquisition of the Airbus aircraft very odd as the 737NG would have been a more logical step when looking at it on a fleet standardisation point of view.

Old US Airways management had a spat with Boeing in the 90s and signed a comprehensive acquisition deal with Airbus, but since management at both companies has changed (and US Airways has merged with American West, with that company's leaders taking over key management positions), whatever bad blood was there should not be an issue. However, Airbus loaned money to help them get out of bankruptcy and finance the merger of two major Airbus customers (and avoid a dumping of many Airbus aircraft into the market if US Air and America West went belly up). As part of the deal they are buying A358s. I believe they were the only US major not to go to Boeing's 787 customer update presentation this past month, no doubt because they don't expect to be buying 787s.
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ElGreco
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:30 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 22):
Quoting A360 (Reply 19):
Right.... the fact that AF has a huge 777 fleet, and more to be delivered is all part of a grand plan...

Yup, those French are craft bastards



Quoting Keesje (Reply 31):
Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 30):
realization that European markets, particularly those of most of the principal partners in Airbus, are not accessible to Boeing

Germany, UK, France & Spain are bulking of thousands of 737, 747, 757, 767, 777 soon 787 and whoever offers a good product for a good price. Including launch customers for B737, B747-8, B777-200ER, B777-300ER, B777-200LRF, and early customers for many more. Lets not ignore reality to make a point. Europeans are not so patriotic.

You need to agree that Japan, Israelian, and most of American Airlines are under US economic and political pressure in addition of the very good Boeing marketing pressure, which is always a good help to get more order.

And it's true that Air France, which was and it still partially controled by the French Gouvernement, have choose Boeing 777 in quantity.

And the difference is, even if the CGT (left union which were really against USA and very closed from the French communist party) is present at the board of the company, NO ONE DISAGREE THE CHOICE OF BOEING B777 EVEN IF IT'S AIRBUS REPRESENT A LOT OF WORK FOR FRENCH WORKERS.

They choose the B777 because it was the best for them.

And I hope AA, Delta, NW,... will choose the A380 if they need a real big plane (more than 500 passagers).
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A388
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:41 am

Atmx2000 thanks for the explanation. However, I was referring to BA ordering the A320 family instead of the 737NG. In my opinion the 737NG would have been more logical as BA already had a lot of experience operating the 737, until they ordered the A320 to replace their 737s. The 737NG would have been an easier step for the 737 Classic pilots already flying at BA.

A388
 
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garpd
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:29 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 41):
The 737NG would have been an easier step for the 737 Classic pilots already flying at BA.

Bloody politics... eh?  Wink
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atmx2000
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:37 am

Quoting ElGreco (Reply 40):
You need to agree that Japan, Israelian, and most of American Airlines are under US economic and political pressure in addition of the very good Boeing marketing pressure, which is always a good help to get more order

No, I don't have to agree that American airlines are under political or economic pressure to order Boeing. There is no effective way for to pressure an US airline to order Boeing that won't get ignored or easily blocked by politicians from its areas of operations or cause problems for whoever is trying to apply the pressure if such pressure exists. Moreover, if they make an economically bad decision for the airline, there are numerous competitors that will eat their lunch. That is why you have an airline like US Airways going all Airbus and why you have several small but rapidly growing airlines with all Airbus fleets. That is why airlines like Northwest and United could order huge fleets of A320s.
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A388
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:37 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 42):
Bloody politics... eh?

Haha, I was thinking the same but decided not to mention it. Politics and aviation, it still happens in todays world. It can be good or bad.

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n1786b
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RE: Air Madrid To Order 15 A350 Or B787

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:23 pm

Quoting ElGreco (Reply 40):
They choose the B777 because it was the best for them.

And the fact that they were cancelling a 767 order and were going to lose their deposits on them had nothing to do with it Hmmmmmm  confused 

The French Minister of Transport at the time of the 777 order said that Air France "was forced to purchase Boeing aircraft" (Le Monde, 21 November 1996) because AF would lose US$874 million in deposits if it did not purchase any Boeing airplanes. I suppose that qualifies as being "the best for them."

An excellent article on the arm wrestling and poker game can be found here.

http://airtransportbiz.free.fr/AF/AF777-2.html

Needless to say, they really like them and haven't stopped ordering them  Smile

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