vfw614
Posts: 3163
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Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:58 am

Cimber Air will axe its last remaining domestic route in Germany on Dec 23 when it will pull the plug on its KEL-FRA service. Cimber Air has been operating domestically in Germany since 1968 (with a break from 1974 to 1986) and in the early 1970s was the largest domestic regional airline in Germany. In the 1990s it operated not only from KEL to FRA, CGN, MUC and BER, but also on routes such as BER-BRE or BER-NUE.

It also means the end - for the time being - for domestic services from KEL. Only a couple of years ago, Cimber Air had four ATR42 based at KEL.

Yet another German regional airport that looses all scheduled services - since 2001, Kiel, Bayreuth, Mönchengladbach, Augsburg and Siegerland have lost their scheduled services - and in the case of KEL, MGL and AGB we are talking about airports were only a couple of years ago up to half a dozen 30-50 seat turboprops were overnighting.... if you add to that KSF and HOQ airports which have lost all their IT charters, a pretty sad development.

[Edited 2005-11-25 20:04:22]
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
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RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:07 pm

this withdrawal is partly owed to the fact the QI did not get the slots it wanted to. the market is there, it's just that the timing got worse with every day and pax numbers and yield declined steadily.

rgds
daniel
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
RJ100
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RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:42 pm

As far as know the route was subsidied and now the government axed the subsidies. Is that true?

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:17 am

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 2):
As far as know the route was subsidied and now the government axed the subsidies. Is that true?

Thats what I heard in the media, too.
 
vfw614
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:44 pm

My understanding is that Cimber Air refused to continue the route despite an increase in subsidies and the state government is seriously p***ed about that.

The interesting question is whether the slots used at FRA belong to QI or to LH. If they belong to QI, the airline could earn a decent amount from selling the three slots it holds. If they belong to LH, Lufthansa has probably found a more lucrative way to use them than for a KEL feeder (which sort of cannibalizes LH's recently expanded network from HAM).

Interesting, by the way, that while scheduled services at KEL come to an end, nearby LBC seems to be ready for the revival of a LBC-MUC route in 2006 after 33 year break.
 
TriStar500
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RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:03 pm

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 4):
Interesting, by the way, that while scheduled services at KEL come to an end, nearby LBC seems to be ready for the revival of a LBC-MUC route in 2006 after 33 year break.

Flown by a LH Regional carrier or by DI?
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
747400F
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RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:18 pm

Could it be one of two other reasons behind this move:
a) QI needs the plane to start BLL-CPH services 6 x daily from jan 9th 06
b) The DM/LH codeshare on the BLL/FRA comes to an end on mar 30th 06, LH have publically said that they have been wanting a new carriere to operate this route as it gives a lot of feed to LH. DM on the other hand stops flyinf the route all together. Could it be that LH need the slots for BLL/FRA and/or QI is going to operated it, maybe even before the DM route stops?, As it is QI allready operates 3xdaily BLL/MUC
All humans have the right to marry the one they love
 
vfw614
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RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:10 pm

LBC-MUC allegedly in the pipeline for Dauair (D5) (which is home-based at LBC, but currently focuses on DTM).

BLL-FRA seems to be a good guess as QI CEO Nielsen went on the record saying that he wants to use the aircraft elsewhere where more money can be earned. I guess it depends a lot on my above question who owns the slots at FRA.
 
columba
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RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:49 pm

Didn�t they used to fly the VFW 614 ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
TriStar500
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Joined: Thu Nov 04, 1999 9:50 pm

RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:52 pm

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 7):
LBC-MUC allegedly in the pipeline for Dauair (D5) (which is home-based at LBC, but currently focuses on DTM).

I don't think it would be a wise idea to compete with a slow and small turboprop against LH's and DI's Airbusses and Boeings, which are flying from nearby HAM. The disadvantages in unit costs are just too big and the travel time of the slow Saab just too large to make this a competitve proposal.

Quoting Columba (Reply 8):
Didn�t they used to fly the VFW 614 ?

Yep.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
columba
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Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:16 pm

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 9):
Quoting Columba (Reply 8):
Didn�t they used to fly the VFW 614 ?

Yep.

Do you know when the last one was retired ? Too bad that this unique aircraft was not a success.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
TheSorcerer
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:35 am

RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:33 pm

Why was a Danish carrier operating domestic flights in germany anyway?
Maybe FR will start operating out of KEL, bet they'll get plenty of subsidies from the government if they do.
BTW do cimber mainly operate on behalf of other airlines?
thanks

The Sorcerer
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
 
747400F
Posts: 464
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RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:51 pm

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 11):
BTW do cimber mainly operate on behalf of other airlines?

Yes and no:
They operate some routes in their own name:
Billund-Stockholm with SK code share
Billund-Oslo with SK code share
Billund-Munich with LH codeshare
CPH-Aalborg
CPH-Bornholm
CPH-Billund (from jan 9th06)
CPH-Karup
CPH-Wroclaw
CPH-Basle
CPH-Bucharest all with SK codeshare
Kiel-FRA with LH codeshare

Then they operate 3 CRJ for SK flying as SK aircraft, as far as remember they serve:
CPH-Norkoebing (2x daily)
CPH-Palanga
CPH-Aberdeen
CPH-Newcastle
CPH-Luxembourg (3x daily)
CPH-Nuermberg
3 CRJ's are operated in semi-SAScolours, but these Aircraft do not exclusively fly the SK routes, they are also seen in BLL and BSL for instance.

Also they have two ATR42 flying for Oman Air
And I think one ATR72 flying for someone in the Caribean

They own to CRJ they other 5 are leased from Maersk aircraft (not Maersk Air - though the aircraft used to fly for DM)
All humans have the right to marry the one they love
 
TriStar500
Posts: 4411
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 1999 9:50 pm

RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:51 pm

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 11):
Maybe FR will start operating out of KEL

With FR already flying from LBC, only a very sweet deal would persuade them to change their focus in this region.

Quoting Columba (Reply 10):
Do you know when the last one was retired ? Too bad that this unique aircraft was not a success.

To quote from Cimber Air's webpage: "1978 Purchase of 2 jet aircraft Fokker F28 MK 3000 to replace the VFW 614."  Smile
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
HT
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RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:58 pm

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 11):
Maybe FR will start operating out of KEL

1260 meters of runway at KEL is too short even for FR !
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
TheSorcerer
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RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:11 pm

Quoting HT (Reply 14):
1260 meters of runway at KEL is too short even for FR !

Would HLX maybe operate out of their? Their F-100s could make it in and out on that runway couldn't they?
Thanks

The Sorcerer
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
 
columba
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Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:15 pm

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 13):
To quote from Cimber Air's webpage: "1978 Purchase of 2 jet aircraft Fokker F28 MK 3000 to replace the VFW 614."

Do you know what happened to the ex-Luftwaffe VFW 614 I thought they went to Denmark and served there with a regional airline ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
TriStar500
Posts: 4411
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 1999 9:50 pm

RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:26 pm

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 15):
Would HLX maybe operate out of their? Their F-100s could make it in and out on that runway couldn't they?

HLX is already flying from HAM and GWT, I don't think they would cannibalize themselves, even more if they would have to operate from a short runway with grave payload restrictions.

Quoting Columba (Reply 16):
Do you know what happened to the ex-Luftwaffe VFW 614 I thought they went to Denmark and served there with a regional airline ?

I don't know for sure, but wasn't there a regional airline called "Muk-Air" in Denmark, which took delivery of some VFW-614's?
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
PanHAM
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RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:03 pm

The Cimber VfW 614's might have gone to Air Alsace as well but I'm not sure about that. One remaing VfW 614 is displayed at it's birthplace, Bremen Airport, visitors terrace.

General Air with Yak 40's must have been the one flying LBC - MUC 33 years ago.
powered by Eierlikör
 
vfw614
Posts: 3163
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec

Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:24 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 8):
Didn�t they used to fly the VFW 614 ?

Cimber Air did not use the VFW614 from KEL. The FW614s were unsed on the Danair domestic network in Denmark. At KEL, Cimber Air used the Nord 262, the ATR42-300/500 and very briefly an ATR72-500

Quoting Columba (Reply 10):
Do you know when the last one was retired ?

The whole VFW614 fleet was retired on August 31, 1979 when the aircraft were bought back by VFW Fokker.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
The Cimber VfW 614's might have gone to Air Alsace as well but I'm not sure about that.

No, they were simply taken back by VFW/Fokker and wfu. Cimber Air was interested to keep them, but as VFW Fokker was unwilling to provide after-sales-support, Cimber agreed to sell them back and take on two Fokker 28-300 (whoch proved to be unsuitable for the Danair network and were quickly wet-leased to Saudia.


Quoting Columba (Reply 16):
Do you know what happened to the ex-Luftwaffe VFW 614 I thought they went to Denmark and served there with a regional airline ?

No, they did not. The idea of a Danish start-up was to operate them on charter flights throughout Europe. The plan was to have them placed on the Muk Air AOC, but not to operate them on Muk Air's schduled services.

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 9):
I don't think it would be a wise idea to compete with a slow and small turboprop against LH's and DI's Airbusses and Boeings, which are flying from nearby HAM. The disadvantages in unit costs are just too big and the travel time of the slow Saab just too large to make this a competitve proposal.

Until 2003 Cimber Air operated the Munich route for a while with decent loads (approx. 60 per cent). The problem was not so much the Munich route in itself, but the problem to find work for the ATR42 in-between the morning and evening flight (a general problem for all QI services from KEL) and the Lufthansa yield management on the route. If Dauair has a "filler" for their Saab 340B, it might work. I agree, however, that LBC-MUC is a bit long in the tooth for the noisy and slow Saab 340B. Before that background, Cimber Air used the ATR42-500 for the MUC route whileo n all other routes ATR42-300s were used.

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 11):
Why was a Danish carrier operating domestic flights in germany anyway?

Cimber Air is home-based at Sonderborg on the Danish-German border, a mere 50miles away from KEL. The company had been active in Northern Germany, which they have always regarded as their home-turf, since the 1950s with aerial photography and survey flights. Later they offered charter flights from Flensburg and in 1968 founded a Germany subsidiary to be able to offer scheduled flights.

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 15):
Would HLX maybe operate out of their? Their F-100s could make it in and out on that runway couldn't they?
Thanks

No, the runway is only suitable for 50seat turboprops. Cimber Air even had difficulties operating the ATR42-500 with a full payload under certain conditions. The largest commerical aircraft that have used KEL so far are ATR72-500 of Cimber Air and Saab 2000 of Swiss (remember that the runway length in itself is not the decisive factor). There are plans to extend the runway to 1.799m + 300m stopways.

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 1):
the market is there, it's just that the timing got worse with every day and pax numbers and yield declined steadily.

The load factor to FRA peaked in 2001 at 68 per cent and has declined ever since. In 2003 there was a pretty dramatic drop of almost 10 percent. I do not have the figure for 2004.

For the record, this is the list of the routes Cimber Air has served from KEL since 1987:
KEL-FRA: 11.87-12.05
KEL-CGN: 04.90-08.03 (continued by EAE, but axed since)
KEL-BER: 11.90-04.03 (continued by FLM, but axed since)
KEL-MUC: 04.01-05.03
KEL-CPH was also served very briefly in 1988/1989 with a Nord 262.

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 7):
I guess it depends a lot on my above question who owns the slots at FRA.

To answer my own question, some further research has revealed that the slots at FRA are held by Lufthansa. Makes sense that Lufthansa now wants to use them for the BLL-FRA route as those slots are probably held by Maersk/Sterling. While the Kiel market for FRA can be fed easily through HAM, there is no such alternative for BLL.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
General Air with Yak 40's must have been the one flying LBC - MUC 33 years ago.

Indeed. Via KSF, an airport that has long lost its scheduled services as well.

[Edited 2005-11-28 14:29:37]
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:30 pm

As a side note, I have today seen a Cimber Air advertising for the BSL-CPH route, together with SAS. It's the first time they make ads since they started the route (more than two years ago!).

So it seems that they are concentrating on domestic Danish routes and on international routes together with SAS.

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
OYRJA
Posts: 2577
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:43 am

RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:47 pm

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 20):
As a side note, I have today seen a Cimber Air advertising for the BSL-CPH route, together with SAS. It's the first time they make ads since they started the route (more than two years ago!).

So it seems that they are concentrating on domestic Danish routes and on international routes together with SAS

They actually had 2 ads during x-mas 2 years ago. But it was a very small ad.
But yeah. They are concentrating on the routes they have now. That would be the smartest thing to do. They don't make money on their own routes. But they earn a fortune on Wetlease contracts.
 
vfw614
Posts: 3163
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:10 am

The state government has apparently approached Dauair (D5) and is negotiating with them to offer flights from KEL via LBC to either FRA oder MUC. Dauair appears to be interested, but has asked for some start-up subsidies. This all according to an interview the Dauair CEO has given to the media on Friday.

It would be, however, quite a cut-back in capacity, given that KEL and LBC would have to share the capacity of the 33seat Saab 340 compared to a 48seat ATR42 of Cimber Air that only served KEL.

On the plus side, it has to be noted that Dauair offers quite attractive one-way fares starting at 49 EUR + taxes. Problems seem to be the question of slots at FRA or MUC, the lack of interlining with Lufthansa and the route length for a Saab 340B as far as MUC is concerned. For KEL, thei nteresting question would also be how much time the LBC stop-over would add given that HAM-FRA with a jet is always an alternative for passengers from Kiel.
 
N1120A
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Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:04 am

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 11):
Why was a Danish carrier operating domestic flights in germany anyway?

The same way Irish carrier Ryanair does UK domestic routes.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
747400F
Posts: 464
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:36 am

RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:18 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 11):
Why was a Danish carrier operating domestic flights in germany anyway?

The same way Irish carrier Ryanair does UK domestic routes.

Any EU carrier (plus Swiss, Faroese, Icelandic and Greenland and Norweigian) can operate within any EU (plus above) countries
All humans have the right to marry the one they love
 
vfw614
Posts: 3163
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:29 am

Since 1997, when the last restrictions for foreign carriers were lifted, Italian, British, Irish, Danish, Austrian airlines have offered domestic services in Germany. (and as soon as subsidised PSO routes are in question, the tender has to be offered EU wide).

As far as Cimber Air is concerned, it was never an issue for them as they set up a German subsidiary as far back as 1968. As long as it was necessary, the domestic services were either operated by the German subsidiary or on behalf of Lufthansa Cityline.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:34 am

Quoting 747400F (Reply 24):
Any EU carrier (plus Swiss, Faroese, Icelandic and Greenland and Norweigian) can operate within any EU (plus above) countries

I am well aware, I was pointing that out for the person who asked.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
vfw614
Posts: 3163
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: Cimber To End German Domestic Services On Dec 23

Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:49 am

As you can see from this picture, at a time Cimber Air had some of its aircraft to their German subsidiary:


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Photo © Rainer Nyberg

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