LY777
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Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:45 am

why does AF has only one daily flight to TLV with a tiny A320 while LY has at least 3 flights a day using 757/767/777/744?
This summer, LY had 6 flights a day while AF still had A flight per day.
Why does not AF compete with LY on this route?
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dutchjet
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:46 am

CDG-TLV is simply a route that AF does not do well with.

A couple of things to consider:

Most of the pax flying CDG-TLV on EL AL would not consider flying with AF or any other airline - the pax prefer EL AL for security reasons, to support Israel, and for other reasons. This is true on many routes world wide, but its seems especially relevant on the CDG-TLV service.

AF does not have a large connecting market to TLV, ie, few pax fly AF from the US to TLV (or vice versa) via Paris, when compared with some other European carriers. At one time, SwissAir and Sabena were favorites for pax travelling between the US and Israel and it was a large niche market for these carriers.....AF never established itself in this market.

At one time, US carriers also competed in the CDG-TLV market, TW flew the route for many many years as a continuation of its JFK or BOS to Paris service (depending on the year and season), PA and then DL also flew the CDG-TLV route for a considerble period. This additional competition did not help AF.

For some reason, AF's fares on the CDG-TLV route seem to be higher than other carriers (no scientific proof, just a general statement).......this could diminish demand.

AF, being a far larger airline from a far larger country, may have priorities higher than increasing market share on the CDG-TLV route......EL AL is still, by world standards, a small airline, and puts much effort into its services which connnect TLV with major European capitals.

There are probably political and cultural considerations as well, which are far too complicated to get into.
 
LY777
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:57 am

I think your explaination is fair.
By the way, when I was young, I remember that I used to fly TWA to go to TLV.The type used was L1011 and 741.Can someone confirm?
Flown:A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388,717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W,D8,D10,L
 
LAXintl
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:58 am

The Air France Israel schedule pretty much guarantees no onward connections. The TLV-CDG flight returns to Paris at 9pm, missing even the last bank of domestic flights.

At the end of the day, like previously mentioned AF does not place much importance on Israel services, and operates them solely for some limited Paris O&D traffic.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
LY777
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:03 am

I heard in October that they would add a second daily flight using a 777, I dont know if that's true
Flown:A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388,717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W,D8,D10,L
 
dutchjet
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:05 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 2):
I think your explaination is fair.
By the way, when I was young, I remember that I used to fly TWA to go to TLV.The type used was L1011 and 741.Can someone confirm?

During the jet age, TW flew 707s into TLV from Paris, Rome and/or Athens, depending upon the season and the year. These flights were continuations of flights from JFK, BOS and other US gateways. For many years, TW 800 was a 747 from JFK to Paris, and then a 707 from Paris to Tel Aviv, with the 707 stationed in Paris to operate this flight. Later on, after the 707s were retired, there were some 727-200 aircraft stationed in Europe to operate continuing segments into TLV, CAI, and other cities. L1011s also flew the CDG-TLV segment for a time. Finally, TW flew 747s (and its 747SPs) on the JFK-TLV nonstop for a few years during TW's glory days. For many many years, TW was the only US carrier with service to Israel....Pan Am added its service on the JFK-CDG-TLV route much later on (Pan Am flew 727-200s on the CDG-TLV segment....later upgraded to A310s), DL took over that service but later discontinued service on the route as it cutback and reorganized European operations. DL returned to Israel during the summer of 2001 with nonstop MD11 service on the JFK-TLV route, it was pulled due to timing (think 9/11).......now, ATL-TLV is being launched by DL with 772s.
 
legendDC9
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:17 am

Can't forget the political environment either. AF and France in general is not seen as a friendly country to Israel, which in turns leads to a pretty significant boycott by the Israelis. The A320 is used because AF couldn't fill much more, even if more connections were available. To that effect, LH did a tremendous job capitalizing on it and has become a major player in the connecting market out of Israel.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 4):
I heard in October that they would add a second daily flight using a 777, I dont know if that's true

Not True.

For AF, TLV belongs to the European network. The yield on this route is low, and as mentionned above, very poor connection at CDG for the PAX, landing at 9:10PM.

AF plans to transfer TLV to the long haul network (Africa/Middle East sector) and to operate the flight with an A332, with another schedule, similar to the flights to/from AMM or DAM : leaving CDG early afternoon, arriving in TLV early evening.
The flight back to CDG should leave TLV very early in the morning (around 7:00AM/7:30AM) to arrive before noon in CDG to offer all the connections on AF's long haul network.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:19 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
For many many years, TW was the only US carrier with service to Israel....

Off topic, but do you know if most of the F/As flying to TLV were Americans, American Jews, or Israelis? Did F/As like flying TLV--I imagine it was very prestigious back in Israeli's glory days.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7):
The flight back to CDG should leave TLV very early in the morning (around 7:00AM/7:30AM) to arrive before noon in CDG to offer all the connections on AF's long haul network.

I don't see why AF should not be able to offer good connections. Lufthansa, British Airways, Swiss, and just about every other European airline with service to Israel and the US connects passengers...

Personally, I prefer connecting on AF (at CDG) over London or Frankfurt...So if I were flying to Israel on a carrier other than El Al or Continental, I'd love to fly AF.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
semsem
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:02 pm

RJPieces the crew on TWA were Americans. However for a while Pan Am used Israeli crews on the TLV to CDG portion.
 
4xRuv
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:53 pm

Quoting LegendDC9 (Reply 6):
Can't forget the political environment either. AF and France in general is not seen as a friendly country to Israel, which in turns leads to a pretty significant boycott by the Israelis. The A320 is used because AF couldn't fill much more, even if more connections were available. To that effect, LH did a tremendous job capitalizing on it and has become a major player in the connecting market out of Israel.

Though I do agree with you guys, and I know what the AF crew think about this route, at the end of the day AF is a private company whose main goal is to earn money. CDG-TLV route can be very profitable, so AF must have better reasons to send here only the 320.
 
SuseJ772
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:23 pm

Quoting LegendDC9 (Reply 6):
To that effect, LH did a tremendous job capitalizing on it and has become a major player in the connecting market out of Israel.

I agree. I connected from ORD through FRA on my way to TLV. We flew on a 744 and it was packed. They must be doing something right. I hate to sound like a stupid movie, but I think the "if you build it they will come" mentality works here. If you offer higher capacity, structure it to connect with US flights, and offer competitive fairs, I am sure AF could fill a 744 or at least a 332 as well.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 8):
Off topic, but do you know if most of the F/As flying to TLV were Americans, American Jews, or Israelis? Did F/As like flying TLV--I imagine it was very prestigious back in Israeli's glory days.

When was Israel's glory days? Or are you referring to TW or PA glory days? I would consider the current political situation in Israel better than it has ever been.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 8):
Personally, I prefer connecting on AF (at CDG) over London or Frankfurt

You're crazy! I would must rather connect through FRA (I can't say anything about LHR).
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
4xRuv
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:57 pm

Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 11):
I am sure AF could fill a 744 or at least a 332 as well.

Actually they fill them both. Daily
 
JAGflyer
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:43 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):

TWA did has carriage rights to CDG from TLV. My dad flew from TLV to CDG and then Air Canada from CDG-YUL. He said the TWA plane (747) continued to JFK.
Support the beer and soda can industry, your recycle old airplanes!
 
4xRuv
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:20 am

Correction: I ment LH is filling them both, not AF
 
USADreamliner
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:59 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
the pax prefer EL AL for security reasons, to support Israel, and for other reasons. This is true on many routes world wide, but its seems especially relevant on the CDG-TLV service.

I think people choose an airline for :1-Price 2-Service 3-Good connections.
All flights to Israel are extremely cautious about security, no matter what airline is.
Probably AF is focusing more on flights to Lebanon and other countries of the region.


USADreamliner  wave 
 
dutchjet
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:01 am

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 15):

I think people choose an airline for :1-Price 2-Service 3-Good connections.
All flights to Israel are extremely cautious about security, no matter what airline is.
Probably AF is focusing more on flights to Lebanon and other countries of the region.


USADreamliner

While, in general, I agree with you when it come to airline choice (I will add that Frequent Flyer programs also come into play for many pax when selecting airlines), different parameters apply when it comes to flying to/from Israel. There is a huge percentage of pax that simply do not consider flying any airline other than EL AL to Israel (and surprisingly its usually not the Israeli pax!) due to security reasons and to support Israel....that being said, there are also many pax that prefer not to fly with EL AL as they find their security measures overbearing.

Its also true that AF has historical ties to, and has maintained normalized relations with, other nations in the middle east which may indirectly lessen demand for the AF service to TLV, its hard to say.
 
mats
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:04 am

I think that part of the problem is that two of the three SkyTeam airlines based in the USA serve Israel already. US passengers travelling to Tel Aviv already have the option to fly on Continental from Newark or Delta via Atlanta. Delta also offers codeshare service on El Al's JFK-Tel Aviv flights.

Other European airlines have also reduced their Tel Aviv services. Alitalia, for example, used to fly A300's from Rome to Tel Aviv. SAS used to offer service to Israel on an MD-80 from Copenhagen. Since these flights appealed to leisure travellers, the larger carriers have moved their equipment and resources to higher-revenue business markets.
 
Lemurs
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:25 am

Quoting Mats (Reply 17):
I think that part of the problem is that two of the three SkyTeam airlines based in the USA serve Israel already. US passengers travelling to Tel Aviv already have the option to fly on Continental from Newark or Delta via Atlanta. Delta also offers codeshare service on El Al's JFK-Tel Aviv flights.

Also don't forget that many people can chose a 1-hop through Europe on SkyTeam to get to TLV that works better than routing to the east coast. I know people who fly SEA-AMS-TLV (NW/KL) because it's faster and cheaper than flying through EWR or ATL, same goes from MSP, MEM, DTW, and they still get their miles. AF would be competing with a lot of other SkyTeam partners for that traffic, and they'd be the 4th choice. (Since, as has been mentioned elsewhere, people who support Israel, espc in this country, tend not to be fans of France.)
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
legendDC9
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:56 pm

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 10):
Though I do agree with you guys, and I know what the AF crew think about this route, at the end of the day AF is a private company whose main goal is to earn money. CDG-TLV route can be very profitable, so AF must have better reasons to send here only the 320.

Exactly... you add the political reasons to the fact the AF is a tough sell and you come up with a daily A320. Don't forget LY runs this route with at least triple the seats and is doing ok. Demand is not the problem, demand on AF is.
 
Tolosy
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:14 pm

I have already flown the route many times. I think the service is poor given the distance.

AF does not attract demand by offering an A320 on such a route while LY flies 777 or even 747, LH an A340 or A330.

Air France neglects the market and does not deserve to be chosen.
 
LY777
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:34 am

you are right:when you have the choice between a tiny A320 and a brand new 777 with PTV, you choose the 777 without a doubt
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4xRuv
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:01 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 21):
you are right:when you have the choice between a tiny A320 and a brand new 777 with PTV, you choose the 777 without a doubt

I will choose the cheapest one (at least when I'm paying for the flight)
 
Knightsofmalta
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:29 pm

Dutchjet
Most of the pax flying CDG-TLV on EL AL would not consider flying with AF or any other airline - the pax prefer EL AL for security reasons, to support Israel, and for other reasons. This is true on many routes world wide, but its seems especially relevant on the CDG-TLV service.

I hardly think this is a realistic argument to be honest. All things considered, SWISS for example has much smaller network than AF but TLV is one of SWISS' best routes with two daily flights, one of which is even operated with an A. 340. Personally I think it probably has more to do with France's affiliation with many of the Arab countries in the middle east such as Libanon or Syria. In the light of recent events, perhaps one should also not forget that there is a large muslim community in France. All this shouldn't really make a difference. But seemingly it does.

On a slightly different note, I'm quite new to this brilliant site, so please excuse my ignorance. Can anybody explain how I can quote something properly which somebody else wrote?
 
rjpieces
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:38 pm

I don't understand how France's Middle Eastern history should influence the route. At the end of the day, AF has a HUGE North American network and it would be all but guaranteed that they could make a decent buck on connecting passengers to TLV.

In the summer time, pretty much EVERY trans-atlantic flight from JFK has passengers connecting to TLV. This past summer, AF had 2 773ERs and 3 772ERs daily. Imagine if connecting to TLV was a viable option...Not to mention the rest of the North American network.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
daron4000
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:31 pm

Why does Swiss fly an A340 and then an A320, they go from their flagship plane to a very small, not comfortable in comparison plane? Also, why do they fly the A340, their new plane with new First and Business seats if they don't even sell First Class on the flight?
 
LY777
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:29 pm

they need a small and a big plane per day, I would choose the biggest one of course
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semsem
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:41 am

KnightsofMalta you put your cursor and move it to show the words you want to copy.

Then go up to edit and then to copy and then to paste.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:23 am

Quoting Knightsofmalta (Reply 23):
Dutchjet
Most of the pax flying CDG-TLV on EL AL would not consider flying with AF or any other airline - the pax prefer EL AL for security reasons, to support Israel, and for other reasons. This is true on many routes world wide, but its seems especially relevant on the CDG-TLV service.

I hardly think this is a realistic argument to be honest. All things considered, SWISS for example has much smaller network than AF but TLV is one of SWISS' best routes with two daily flights, one of which is even operated with an A. 340. Personally I think it probably has more to do with France's affiliation with many of the Arab countries in the middle east such as Libanon or Syria. In the light of recent events, perhaps one should also not forget that there is a large muslim community in France. All this shouldn't really make a difference. But seemingly it does.

On a slightly different note, I'm quite new to this brilliant site, so please excuse my ignorance. Can anybody explain how I can quote something properly which somebody else wrote?

Trust me, it is a very realistic arguement.......and do note that Swiss has a very important niche market in moving pax between the US and Israel which helps keep the two flights per day profitable. As I pointed out above, in the past, Sabena also had a good piece of this market. The North America-Israel market is one that AF has never chosen to exploit, as evidenced by their schedules (it is impossible to fly from TLV to North America without an overnight stop in Paris) which reduces demand for their services in and out of TLV. French politics as it relates to Arab nations may also play a part, but I really do not want to get into politics here.......but as you point out, other European carriers which also serve destinations in Arab nations do quite well on their services to TLV.
 
legendDC9
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:32 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 28):
French politics as it relates to Arab nations may also play a part, but I really do not want to get into politics here.......but as you point out, other European carriers which also serve destinations in Arab nations do quite well on their services to TLV.

It plys a bigger part than most people realize. For many years various carriers ran late departures out of TLV forcing an overnight in order to connect to North America. BA/KL/LH/SR/SK all did those and BA with the late TLV departure still does. I don't think anyone ever had any problems filling seats and they all used widebodies (except for SK ofcoarse). Outside of french politics and a perceived bias towards the arab world, AF has had various "problems" holding on to the TLV market by themselves. From being the first to pull out of TLV before the gulf war to an AF captain saying "welcome to palestine" when arriving in Israel. These are huge stories in Israel and they will last in everyone's minds for years. When you combine AF issues with French politics into a small country like Israel, you end up with a very effective boycott.
 
semsem
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RE: Air France On The CDG/TLV Route

Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:19 pm

Legend I am impressed. You know a lot about aviation in Israel.

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