Byrdluvs747
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What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:25 am

Obviously one doesn't exist, but I was wondering what kind(size) of plane could one build with this kind of thrust?

Could one imagine a plane 1.5 times the size of an A380? Bigger? How much range would one get with four engines of that size?
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Btriple7
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:29 am

As far as I know the engines on the A380 are larger and more powerful than the GE90s; so I would say the 747-8 would be the kind of plane to have four GE90s.

Regards,
Btriple7
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zvezda
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:34 am

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 1):
As far as I know the engines on the A380 are larger and more powerful than the GE90s

No, the engines on the WhaleJet are less powerful than GE90s.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Thread starter):

Could one imagine a plane 1.5 times the size of an A380? Bigger?

The WhaleJet has a fuselage 281 inches wide and 331 inches tall. If one were to widen that to a circular 331 inches, four GE90s would provide about the right amount of thrust.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Thread starter):
How much range would one get with four engines of that size?

Range is not really a function of thrust.
 
AirRyan
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:36 am

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 1):
As far as I know the engines on the A380 are larger and more powerful than the GE90s; so I would say the 747-8 would be the kind of plane to have four GE90s.

Ahh, that's a negative ghost rider. A380 engiens are around 75,000 to 80,000 lbs/thrust class where the GE90's are up to 115,000 lns/thrust. 4 GE90's on a fully doubled decker 747 or a new C5 "big-brother" might be cool but is there a need for such a plane?
 
KC135R
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:38 am

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 1):
As far as I know the engines on the A380 are larger and more powerful than the GE90s; so I would say the 747-8 would be the kind of plane to have four GE90s.

Not hardly...

The Trent 900's are 70-76,500 lbs thrust
http://www.rolls-royce.com/civil_aer...ines/trent900/technology_flash.jsp

The GE90-115 is rated at 115,300 lbs thrust
http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/ge90/ge90-115b.html

I see I got beaten to the punch twice while I was trying to find references!! Oh well...

[Edited 2005-11-27 01:41:20]
 
Thorny
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:40 am

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 1):
As far as I know the engines on the A380 are larger and more powerful than the GE90s; so I would say the 747-8 would be the kind of plane to have four GE90s.

A380's engines are around 70,000 lbs thrust each. GE90 peaks at around 115,000 lbs. thrust.
 
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:41 am

Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 1):
As far as I know the engines on the A380 are larger and more powerful than the GE90s; so I would say the 747-8 would be the kind of plane to have four GE90s.

Regards,
Btriple7

The GE90-115B is also physically larger in diameter than the A380s engines.


Dan
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B777200
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:42 am

I was actually thinking of this same topic myself. That aircraft would have approximately 4 * 90,000 = 360,000Lbs of thrust.

Just to compare. (Approximate figures)
Boeing 747-400 = 4 * 62,000 = 248,000Lbs Thrust
Airbus 380-800 = 4 * 72,000 = 288,000Lbs Thrust
Antonov An225 = 6 * 52,000 = 312,000Lbs Thrust.


Instead of having 6 Engines on the Antonov An225, 4 General Electric GE90's would be more powerful.

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stuckinMAF
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:55 am

Quoting B777200 (Reply 7):
Instead of having 6 Engines on the Antonov An225, 4 General Electric GE90's would be more powerful.

Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the subject of the thread, ya beat me to it!!!

Now THAT would be worth seeing!
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A360
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:11 am

Quoting B777200 (Reply 7):
Just to compare. (Approximate figures)
Boeing 747-400 = 4 * 62,000 = 248,000Lbs Thrust
Airbus 380-800 = 4 * 72,000 = 288,000Lbs Thrust
Antonov An225 = 6 * 52,000 = 312,000Lbs Thrust.

A380F = 4* 76,500 = 306,000Lbs Thrust

The An225 wouldn't need 4 GE90's. 4 GP7200/Trent900 would do the job(both are certified to up to 80k lb)... and burn less fuel.  Wink
 
kanebear
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:38 am

Saw the topic and was thinking B-52... until I educated myself. Heck, ONE GE-90 would be ALMOST enough to replace the EIGHT turbofans (TF-33/JT3D @ 17,000lbs thrust

[Edited 2005-11-27 02:42:42]
 
whitehatter
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:50 am

An A380 technically could be built with four GE90 engines as there are lower thrust versions. British Airways had their 772A aircraft delivered with engines which are in the general ballpark.

It would need some redesign work and maybe higher undercarriage to cope though. The GE90 range starts at 74,000lbs thrust.
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RayChuang
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:56 am

Technically, the A380 kind of uses GE90 engines because the Engine Alliance GP7270 engines on the A380-800 passenger model uses a lot of technology found on the GE90 engine.
 
whitehatter
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:04 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 12):
Technically, the A380 kind of uses GE90 engines because the Engine Alliance GP7270 engines on the A380-800 passenger model uses a lot of technology found on the GE90 engine.

It's an interesting hybrid of GE and PW technology which should be an excellent engine. Maybe in another universe that co-operation could have resulted in another engine being developed in the GEnx category.

GE does interesting work when in cooperation, look at its killer product as partner in CFM. It is also partnered with Rolls in the military field for the JSF powerplant.
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malaysia
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:14 am

3 Ge90 and a Tristar, would make the most lovely L-1011 NG
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Btriple7
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:49 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
No, the engines on the WhaleJet are less powerful than GE90s.



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 3):
Ahh, that's a negative ghost rider. A380 engiens are around 75,000 to 80,000 lbs/thrust class where the GE90's are up to 115,000 lns/thrust. 4 GE90's on a fully doubled decker 747 or a new C5 "big-brother" might be cool but is there a need for such a plane?



Quoting KC135R (Reply 4):
Not hardly...



Quoting Thorny (Reply 5):

A380's engines are around 70,000 lbs thrust each. GE90 peaks at around 115,000 lbs. thrust.



Quoting Dan2002 (Reply 6):
The GE90-115B is also physically larger in diameter than the A380s engines.

My apologies. ashamed  I did get the facts wrong.  ziplip  I'll be sure to check next time.

Thanks for the correction,
Btriple7
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zeke
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:45 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 11):
An A380 technically could be built with four GE90 engines as there are lower thrust versions. British Airways had their 772A aircraft delivered with engines which are in the general ballpark.

It would need some redesign work and maybe higher undercarriage to cope though. The GE90 range starts at 74,000lbs thrust.

Using the historical growth of the 747-100 to the 400, an approximate static thrust increase of of 20% yielded a MTOW increase of approximatly 16%.

The GE90-90B would increase the static thrust on the 380 by about 25% one would expect this to yield a MTOW growth of around 20%.

GE90-90B FAA certified dimensions:
Overall Length 7283 mm
Overall width 3871 mm
Overall Height 3952 mm
Mass 7892.5 kg (17400 lb.)

Trent 900 EASA certified dimensions:
Overall Length 5302.5 mm
Maximum Diameter 3944 mm
Mass 6271 kg

8mm differance in the maximum cross section as per the data sheets for the Trent 900 vs the GE90-90B, Trent 900 has a larger overall frontal cross section than the GE90-115B, however its 1978.50 mm shorter.

The GE90-115B would increase the static thrust on the 380 by about 52% one would expect this to yield a MTOW growth of around 46%.

GE90-115B FAA certified dimensions:
Overall Length 7281 mm (286,67 inches)
Overall width 3769 mm (148.38 inches)
Overall Height 3926 mm (154.56 inches)
Mass 8761.1 kg

Mass to static thrust comparison (kg/N)
GE90-90B = 51.05
Trent 970-84 = 51.46
GE90-115B = 55.85

The GE90-115B has a higher "power to weight" ratio of the earlier GE90s and current Trent 900.

The above raw engine data was extract directly from the FAA/EASA TCDS.
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Lemurs
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:01 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 16):
The GE90-90B would increase the static thrust on the 380 by about 25% one would expect this to yield a MTOW growth of around 20%.

Not to pick nits but I am almost certain GE doesn't offer the 90B anymore, only the 94B. The 94B core has improvements pulled from the 115B program, and they offer a retro-fit kit to airlines who operate the 90B. (Continental signed up to upgrade theirs to 94B's during heavy checks, and I am sure their 2 new planes will come with them standard.) The 94B actually has better SFC and operating economics than the 90B to boot, and another 16,000lbs of thrust isn't easy to ignore...
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kanebear
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:49 pm

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 14):
3 Ge90 and a Tristar, would make the most lovely L-1011 NG

I'd love to see how exactly you'd shoehorn a GE90 into the ass end of that airframe.
 
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:37 pm

I think the stretched (and thus heavier) A380-900 could very well see use of a derated GE90 (under the form of a higher thrust GP7270 that is).

Anybody here knows from memory how much thrust the A380-900 will require?

[Edited 2005-11-27 09:43:38]
 
iwok
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:56 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 16):
Mass to static thrust comparison (kg/N)
GE90-90B = 51.05
Trent 970-84 = 51.46
GE90-115B = 55.85

The GE90-115B has a higher "power to weight" ratio of the earlier GE90s and current Trent 900.

Zeke,

not to nitpick... If you have a mass/thrust ratio I assume you mean mass of the engine to thrust of the engine. If this is correct, then 51.05 Kg/N is better than 55.85 Kg/N i.e. the first is lighter for the same thrust. Am I confused? Do you mean N/Kg?

iwok
 
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zeke
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:25 pm

Quoting Iwok (Reply 20):
Do you mean N/Kg?

Thanks Iwok, typo on my side, should have been kN/kg i.e. 402920/7892.5

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 17):
Not to pick nits but I am almost certain GE doesn't offer the 90B anymore, only the 94B. The 94B core has improvements pulled from the 115B program, and they offer a retro-fit kit to airlines who operate the 90B. (Continental signed up to upgrade theirs to 94B's during heavy checks, and I am sure their 2 new planes will come with them standard.) The 94B actually has better SFC and operating economics than the 90B to boot, and another 16,000lbs of thrust isn't easy to ignore...

I did the comparison at static thrust, not takeoff thrust. The GE90-90B static thrust is the same as the GE90-94B. For takeoff thrust GE90-90B 418133 kN (94000 lb), GE90-94B 432811 kN (97300 lb), 3300 lb per engine difference at takeoff thrust.
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Brendan03
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:14 pm

I would love to see an A380F (Possibly HGW) with 4 GE90s, Seeing that take off empty would be very impressive!!! O_O!!
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DavidT
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:27 pm

Has anybody seen the photo of that 747 with 3 normal then one GE90 engine? The GE90 looks absolutely huge compared wit hteh rest. Only just cleared the floor.

Could you put two of those on a 747 and fly it? I suspect not  Sad
 
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shamrock350
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:30 pm

Quoting DavidT (Reply 23):
Has anybody seen the photo of that 747 with 3 normal then one GE90 engine? The GE90 looks absolutely huge compared wit hteh rest.

I saw a picture of that in Airlinerworld magazine it was huge!!
 
zvezda
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:56 pm

Quoting DavidT (Reply 23):
Could you put two of those on a 747 and fly it? I suspect not

Would it fly? Yes. Would it be certifiable? No, but the person who did it would be.  Smile
 
henny
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:53 pm

Quoting B777200 (Reply 7):
Instead of having 6 Engines on the Antonov An225, 4 General Electric GE90's would be more powerful.

... and burn double the amount of fuel, not to mention decimate the efficiency of -225's amazing wing.  Wink
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A360
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:45 pm

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 19):
Anybody here knows from memory how much thrust the A380-900 will require?

I guess 4*Trent900/GP7200 at 80.000lb will be enough.

Or maybe even higher thrust version of those engines...

Regards:
A360
 
Alessandro
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:39 am

B777200, I think 3 GE90-115s would be enough for a re-designed AN-225, I would like to see an AN-124 with 2 GE90-115s and same wing as AN-225 (somewhere between the two existing wingspans of the AN-124 and AN-225).
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srbmod
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:04 am

I'd like to see them stick 4 GE-90s on the B-52..........
 
Geo772
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:26 am

The number of engines required is not just based on max overall thrust but the thrust required when you have an engine failure at V1.

The 747, A380 and the like only need comparatively small engines compared to the 777 because they only lose 25% of the total power rather than the 50% a twinjet losses.
This also explains why twinjets that have a similar weight to a quad have better airfield performance. Just look at the A330 and A340.
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Boeing Nut
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:34 am

I thought I saw one time a schematic for the 747-500X and -600X in which GE-90's were displayed.

P.S. If you want to see some very cool "L-1011NG" illustrations, check out this guys webpage. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/puck/ He's an A.net member that does great stuff. He's been quiet for a while though.

Regards

[Edited 2005-11-27 17:40:36]
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sabenapilot
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:39 am

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 30):
This also explains why twinjets that have a similar weight to a quad have better airfield performance. Just look at the A330 and A340

Twins might have better field performance, but they are ironically sooner and more often payload limited when departing from short runways or from airports with terrain clearing issues.

Best known example is AF and their SXM operations.

Although the 777 has a more spectacular take off profile when all goes well, it would still need to be severely payload restricted on a return flight to CDG to meet the one engine out performance requirements.

The A343 however, often called a poor performer by those who don't know much about aviation (or by those who spent too much time on this site and blindly believe all that is said here), can take off at its max payload without any restrictions, thanks to the 4 engines concept!

This is also the reason why you will always see AF with A340 or 747 in SXM.... Because the 777 (or in fact any other twin bound for a long haul flight) would be extremely weight limited and be the real underperformer here.

[Edited 2005-11-27 17:45:30]
 
KC135R
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:26 am

Quoting DavidT (Reply 23):
Has anybody seen the photo of that 747 with 3 normal then one GE90 engine? The GE90 looks absolutely huge compared wit hteh rest. Only just cleared the floor

You mean these?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Je89 W.
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jet City Aviation Photography



Impressive - the funny thing is, if I didn't know better, it makes the 747 engines look tiny. But those are big engines too - the GE90 is just that much bigger.
 
SonicZoom87
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:52 am

how about a 777-300ER with four GE90s???
I know it would not happen is obvious but what consequences would this bring? A supersonic Jet? Who knows, most likely the structure won't permitted.
 
zvezda
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:27 am

Quoting SonicZoom87 (Reply 34):
how about a 777-300ER with four GE90s???
I know it would not happen is obvious but what consequences would this bring? A supersonic Jet? Who knows, most likely the structure won't permitted.

The buffetting would break it apart. For supersonic flight, a pointy nose is needed. For subsonic flight, a rounded nose is more efficient.
 
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zeke
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:11 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 35):
For supersonic flight, a pointy nose is needed. For subsonic flight, a rounded nose is more efficient.

The space shuttle is the fastest aircraft around at the moment, being hypersonic and supersonic, it does not have a pointy nose.
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AirPacific747
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
No, the engines on the WhaleJet are less powerful than GE90s.



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 3):

Ahh, that's a negative ghost rider. A380 engiens are around 75,000 to 80,000 lbs/thrust class where the GE90's are up to 115,000 lns/thrust. 4 GE90's on a fully doubled decker 747 or a new C5 "big-brother" might be cool but is there a need for such a plane?



Quoting KC135R (Reply 4):
Not hardly...

The Trent 900's are 70-76,500 lbs thrust
http://www.rolls-royce.com/civil_aer...ines/trent900/technology_flash.jsp

The GE90-115 is rated at 115,300 lbs thrust
http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/ge90/ge90-115b.html



Quoting Thorny (Reply 5):
A380's engines are around 70,000 lbs thrust each. GE90 peaks at around 115,000 lbs. thrust.

I think I will say it once more just to make sure that everyone knows:
umm, I think the GE90's are more powerful than the ones on the A380  Wink
 
zvezda
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 36):
The space shuttle is the fastest aircraft around at the moment, being hypersonic and supersonic, it does not have a pointy nose.

Good point. Why is the space shuttle an exception? Does anyone here know? Is it just strong enough to withstand the buffetting?
 
upupandaway
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:22 am

re shuttle, my guess is that at launch it is attached to a pointy main booster, by the time it detaches it is outside most of the atmosphere. Most of the reentry is a belly flop, ie the underneath bears the brunt, not the nose. (?)
 
Web
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:22 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 38):
Why is the space shuttle an exception? Does anyone here know? Is it just strong enough to withstand the buffetting?

Most likely because the design is not intended for fast speeds, but for slowing down. If you put a pointy nose on the space shuttle, you would lose the drag the rounded nose produces to slow its speed and descent, requiring other drag-inducing devices.
 
deltaguy767
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:30 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 38):

Good point. Why is the space shuttle an exception? Does anyone here know? Is it just strong enough to withstand the buffetting?

CAUTION: This is an educated guess only!!
Hello All,
The reson why the space shuttle might have a rounded nose is that it also travels in space which is a vaccum. Meaning of couse that there is no air resistance or airflow issues.

From BDL,  wave 
DeltaGuy767
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A360
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:55 am

Quoting DeltaGuy767 (Reply 41):
The reson why the space shuttle might have a rounded nose is that it also travels in space which is a vaccum. Meaning of couse that there is no air resistance or airflow issues.

Well, if it traveled only in space they could even have made it with a square nose...
The problem is taking of and reentering in the atmosphere.

Regards:
A360
 
sllevin
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:04 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 38):
Why is the space shuttle an exception?

The reason the shuttle doesn't have a pointy nose is ablation. The same reason that capsule designs, like the old Apollo, descended blunt end first.

If you provide a sharp nose, then the heat gets focused on that tiny little area, and it is easier to burn away. By providing a blunt shape, it's much harder to burn away.

Steve
 
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:07 am

Quoting DavidT (Reply 23):
The GE90 looks absolutely huge compared wit hteh rest. Only just cleared the floor.

Could you put two of those on a 747 and fly it? I suspect not

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/photos/big/00005184.jpg

We tried it during a dull week-end some time ago, however the boss drove by & saw it & we had to remove them before monday  Wink
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malaysia
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:27 am

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 18):
I'd love to see how exactly you'd shoehorn a GE90 into the ass end of that airframe.

Maybe make a fuselage with 3x3x3x3 seating width hehe that will be a super wide-body L-1011 and maybe the GE90 will then fit just fine in the tail.
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A360
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RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:18 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 44):
We tried it during a dull week-end some time ago, however the boss drove by & saw it & we had to remove them before monday

 rotfl 

Regards:
A360
 
washfam
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2003 11:07 am

RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:19 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 44):

We tried it during a dull week-end some time ago, however the boss drove by & saw it & we had to remove them before monday Wink

It was probably the tailhook that took it too far. laughing 

Funniest post this week. Thanks.
 rotfl 
 
bomber996
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:21 am

RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:22 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 44):

Thats gota be one fo the best modifications I've ever seen! Good find. bigthumbsup 

Peace  box 
Two biggest lies in aviation... "I'm from the FAA and I'm here to help you." & "Traffic in sight."
 
Rj111
Posts: 3007
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:02 am

RE: What Kind Of Plane With 4 GE90 Engines?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:02 am

Acciording to GE the GE90 thrust range is 74,000-115,000. and the GP700 is offered at 81,500 lb for the A380F. So some A380 engines may be more powerful than the some GE90's.

But they also say the first GE90 was certified at 84,000 so i don't know, so i dunno if they've made an error.

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