EZEIZA
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Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:06 am

AR has decided to let off 168 pilots that had been on strike, demanding higher wages (45% increase) since last thursday. The unions have threatend with an long strike and have stated that they were not notified about the pilots being fired. More trouble ahead ....  Sad
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/11/27/um/m-01097537.htm (Spanish only)
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
PDPsol
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:17 am

Geez, looks like Marsans SA is playing hardball; not that there is anything wrong with that considering this is NOT the first strike AR pilots have started this year.

I recently mentioned this issue [wage demands by pilots and other personnel] in the related thread discussing AR's future. In my post, I mention this is not unique to the civil aviation sector in Argentina as several other workers group have gone on strike this year, including energy/oil/gas.

This is related to the government's inability to tackle inflation pressures head-on with an independent central bank and monetary policy. "K" is TERRIFIED of stifling Argentina's economic growth via higher interest rates [which are sorely needed if the government wants to keep a lid on inflation].
 
plunafan
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:17 am

168 pilots and mechanics. At the moment all rumours but nothing comfirmed by the company.
 
juventus
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:19 am

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1132955005.html

When I read this article, I knew there was trouble in the air.
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:21 am

Is it just me but will all these problems (flights cancelled, pax stranded not knowing when they will fly, etc.) benefit immensly LAN?
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
Marambio
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:32 am

Good evening gentlemen,

This strike is just the top of a very old and big iceberg. There were already three conciliaciones obligatorias*. According to the law, worker's unions are compelled to follow two conciliaciones obligatorias. However, they decided to accept a third one, until the Management offered a 4% wage rise. Unions were asking for a 45% rise, which eventually went down to 22%.

Since unions are now not compelled to obbey this fourth conciliación obligatoria -dictated by the Labour Ministry two days ago-, and since Aerolíneas clearly stated they will fire 168 employees and close down the Bahía Blanca Maintenance Centre, it is obvious this strike will last for long.

Meanwhile, Aerolíneas' president and vice-president, Antonio Mata and José María Llodrá, are in Madrid and should be coming back to Buenos Aires tomorrow.

The airline had to rent an A330 from Iberworld so that the evening flight to Madrid could leave. On the other hand, they somehow managed to operate Madrid's early-afternoon flight.

Last but not least, this strike only affects Aerolíneas Argentinas. All Austral flights should be operating under their normal schedule, yet APTA (the techinician's union) is striking at both AR and AU, so most are either heavily delayed or just cancelled.

Most of the 22.000 stranded passengers are staying at different hotels nationwide, paid for by the airline.

You may want to check Aerolíneas' website, which has got some info about these events (Spanish only): http://www.aerolineas.com.ar/ar/inde...idi=es&secc=1&subs=5&cmbPrensa=221

Conciliación obligatoria (plural: Conciliaciones obligatorias): an agreement made by the two sides with the Labour Ministry, in which they agree to go back to the situation before the strike for a period of time, taking advantage of it for negociating.

Saludos,
Marambio

[Edited 2005-11-28 03:39:53]
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
Arcano
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:00 pm

I wanted to discuss this but I thought it was duty of an Argentine member to start this discussion.

I've heard that more than 22 thousand of pax have been affected by the strike, and Marsans' CEO himself is traveling to Buenos Aires to try to negotiate with the unions.

More firing could be announced.

I know most of Pax from SCL were diverted to different airlines

Quoting Marambio (Reply 6):
Last but not least, this strike only affects Aerolíneas Argentinas. All Austral flights should be operating under their normal schedule

How come? why only AR?

Regards )( Arcano
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
Jj
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:20 pm

AU's pilots are not represented by the same union, hence they're not striking. I hope that AR can find a solution to this big mess soon. What I find odd is that LAN doesn't seem to be taking such a big advantage from the situation. They scheduled like only 10 flights today, and with a fleet of 5 737's they could do much more than that and really benefit from this whole thing...
 
Marambio
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:26 pm

Hola Arcano,

Quoting Arcano (Reply 7):
Marsans' CEO himself is traveling to Buenos Aires to try to negotiate with the unions.

Not correct. Aerolíneas' CEO, Antonio Mata, is on his way back to Buenos Aires. Mata and his vice-president, José María Llodrá, were in Madrid doing some business since Thursday and now finally thought it would be good for the airline to solve this issue.

Tomorrow, Mata will have a meeting with Chef de cabinet Alberto Fernández at the Casa Rosada. Fernández will also meet the "nice" unions, i.e. the ones which are not on strike.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 7):
I know most of Pax from SCL were diverted to different airlines

I assume "different airlines" means Lan Chile, right?  Smile

Quoting Arcano (Reply 7):
How come? why only AR?

Aerolíneas and Austral are two different legal entities - Aerolíneas Argentinas S.A. and Austral Cielos del Sur S.A, both owned by Marsans through a holding called Interinvest. Therefore, in most cases, Aerolíneas and Austral do not share unions, AU's being mostly "nicer" towards the Board than AR's. The only exception is APTA, the technician's union, which is represented at both airlines.

By the way, Argentine media is giving a comprehensive coverage to the strike (all links in Spanish):
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/informaciongeneral/nota.asp?nota_id=760035
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/11/27/um/m-01097537.htm
http://www.terra.com.ar/canales/informaciongeneral/127/127850.html
http://ar.news.yahoo.com/051127/7/mh5l.html

Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
Arcano
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:03 pm

Hola Marambio

Quoting Marambio (Reply 9):
Aerolíneas' CEO, Antonio Mata,

Indeed, I meant Mata

Quoting Marambio (Reply 9):
I assume "different airlines" means Lan Chile, right

Mostly for sure, since there has been no major buzz at Pudahuel with people stucked

Quoting Marambio (Reply 9):
Aerolíneas and Austral are two different legal entities

But the guys at Austral don't share AR's unios point of view and demands, to make extra pressure and get also better wages?
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:28 pm

Things keep getting worse ....
No pax are permitted to go to or come fom EZE since the unions have cut the highway that goes to the airport. So now this conflict is affecting all airlines that operate here
This is a terrible image not only for the airline but for the country.  

http://www.infobae.com/notas/nota.php?Idx=225043&IdxSeccion=100798

[Edited 2005-11-28 15:30:57]
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
Danny
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:47 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 11):
No pax are permitted to go to or come fom EZE since the unions have cut the highway that goes to the airport. So now this conflict is affecting all airlines that operate here

I assume this is against the law therefore why not get the Police do their job?
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:34 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 12):
I assume this is against the law therefore why not get the Police do their job?

Yes, they should, but no, probably they won't. No one wants to assume the political cost of a clash between unions and police. I hope I'm wrong, cause this is pathetic.
Pax are now WALKING through the highway wit their luggage .... this is embarrasing. Oh, and as if things were not that bad, Lavagna is out of the government ... well, I don't know if it will be a bad thing but it does not look too good.
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/11/28/um/m-01097979.htm check out he picture ... poor people
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
aswissinmad
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:48 am

I am right now at MAD, and my airline uses a ticket counter near AR's....
It's been such a mess since Friday...hundreds of stranded pax, some very agitated, which the handling agent (Newco) are trying to calm down ... apparently AR has chartered an Air Plus Comet aircraft to help repatriate some of the pax to EZE .. it is due to leave sometimes tonight... Let's see if the strikers in EZE will allow this to happen, and if they'll let the plane go back to MAD with AR's paxs.
 
PDPsol
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:01 am

This is so outrageous; the APTA union is completely out of control here and, as usual, the provincial and national security authorities are unwilling to challenge the strikers.

As I have said before, this demand by AR's pilots for increased wages is NOT unique to the civil aviation sector. Argentina is facing TREMENDOUS inflationary pressures. Over three years of economic growth with nominal capital investment have pushed the nation's productive capacity to its limit. The unions smell blood in the water and, after having suffered for so many years, they will do anything to meet their demands.

The Central Bank NEEDS to increase interest rates and put on damper on inflationary expectations. "K" must bite the bullet and jack up rates or the Republic will experience the same horrendous spiral of inflation that has plagued the nation so many times before. Argentines have seen this movie more than once and they do not like the ending!

The Central Bank in Argentina is NOT independent from the executive, its monetary policy is determined by K and his people. Argentina must make its Central Bank independent and stop decades of political meddling by power-hungry polticians.

[Edited 2005-11-28 17:03:10]
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:06 am

Update: The highway is now partially open. At least some cars are being able to transit, but the situation is still chaotic
http://www.infobae.com/notas/nota.php?Idx=225043&IdxSeccion=100806
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
EI747SYDNEY
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:33 am

They Should all go to Ryanair....

I hear the wages are a lot better  laughing 

Rob  wave 
''Live life on the edge, Live each and every day like it's your last, Hell you only live once''
 
Aero
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:49 am

Marambio,
Ezeiza,

How is the situation at Aeroparque (AEP). Not affected?

Hope paxs can get home asap.

Rgds,
Aero
LAN...the star of the Latin American skies
 
MD11junkie
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:24 am

1hr ago, the first Aerolíneas Argentinas flight departed AEP for IGR.

Aerolíneas says its people not wanting to strike anymore. The unions say, they are upper level personnel. The unions lie, not to lose their stand.

Lavagna leaving the government is nothing but Outrageous. Means that De Vido is still messing up with the president and it's its protégé. Cirielli is close of going out, but since these two are close friends, nothing will happen.
I'm completely appalled by the lack of seriousness this government has handled everything. And they said they were going to get rid of corruption, and as soon as overprices are blown from the Economics Ministry, the one that gets the shot is the very same, excellent Minister, Licenciado Roberto Lavagna.

No cheers today.
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
aswissinmad
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:31 am

In one of my posts above I've said that AR had chartered an Air Plus Comet a/c to operate MAD-EZE tonight ... actually they are now chartering an Iberworld 330 which left MAD about 45 minutes ago, to accomodate pax stranded from yesterday's cancellations... however I don't know what they did with the 600+ pax they had on today's 2 747's cancelled flights, since they have very limited interline agreements with other airlines (and anyway a strike is not considered by the EU-law as a preventable incident and AR does not have to reroute pax onto other airlines).
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:48 pm

letest update; AR has fired another 100 workers, and the 6th day of strikes is starting ...
http://www.infobae.com/notas/nota.php?Idx=225294&IdxSeccion=100799
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
aswissinmad
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:58 pm

They have just chartered an Air Pullmantur 747 to operate from MAD to EZE today/tonight .. that's r¡ght after having to charter an Iberworld 330 last night ... this could be starting to cost them tons of money ...

And you should see the zoo that the AR area in MAD is right now.... not nice...
 
gusnyc
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:29 pm

Hi Everybody!

My simple question is... who is right?

Are the pilots striking? I understand that they have a very high salary comparing with the average in Argentina, right? Is Marsans (and/or the company) abusing from the employees?

I am from Argentina but I don't have a very strong "unions" culture. I feel all of these conflicts are coming from the culture of a "pais bananero". At least, that is think when I see how the unions are organizing a "batucada" at the airport, or adopting the "piqueteros" techniques.

But I haven't been in Argentina in the last 5 years. Am I wrong? I had the image of Marsans as a business man who saved AR from bankruptcy. I am not saying his administration is flawless, but it Aerolineas seems to be soaring in the last years, even with the fuel prices at the levels that we have now.

So... who do you think is right?

Thanks for your opinion.

Gustavo
 
AGM100
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:20 pm

Thier is some serious problems for sure. How can this happen so fast I wonder. We were just @ ARSA working 3 months ago and everything was fine it appeared ??? I know thier are some issues with the "new" 737-500's being delayed delivery. Wow this is very suprising and sad. Good luck to our freinds at ARSA and thier families. We hope the best
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Derico
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:06 pm

Quoting GusNYC (Reply 23):
I am from Argentina but I don't have a very strong "unions" culture. I feel all of these conflicts are coming from the culture of a "pais bananero".

Yes and no. Kind of banana republic in the tactics, but the US has had a long history of similar strikes, maybe not recently but sure as heck many in the past. Didn't Reagan have to intervene and fire a whole bunch of workers? A president, a polititian, intervining in a private market affair, sounds kind of banana republic. But it doesn't mean the US was a banana republic... or maybe it did, as Argentina may look now.

In any event, I don't really know the full context of the strike, probably some wage increase should be warranted, but probably not what the union is asking for. It's always the same in the end with these things.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
blue787
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:26 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 4):
benefit immensely LAN?

that's if you can get a seat on LAN out of SYD.There was quite a mess at the terminal in SYD on Sunday when the pax were handed a letter telling them to and get a refund from their travel agent.Not even "perdon" from management.
Fortunately the local TV staff could not understand Spanish so we got the uncensored version.There many referring to them as "hijos de P".I felt very sorry for the pax who have been left high and dry.
 
MD11junkie
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:25 pm

Quoting Blue787 (Reply 26):
that's if you can get a seat on LAN out of SYD.There was quite a mess at the terminal in SYD on Sunday when the pax were handed a letter telling them to and get a refund from their travel agent.Not even "perdon" from management.
Fortunately the local TV staff could not understand Spanish so we got the uncensored version.There many referring to them as "hijos de P".I felt very sorry for the pax who have been left high and dry.

LAN in an act of non-caring and refusal - has said it WILL NOT SELL any tickets to Aerolineas Argentinas, to cover up for the lack of flights to transport its passengers (will only sell in First Class) even though if there are seats available in all classes. This shows you how good LAN is. We shouldn't have sold LAN those seats when their first flight to COR failed miserably.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 24):
know thier are some issues with the "new" 737-500's being delayed delivery

No, this is the 3rd and 4th 747-400s. The 737s are being delivered on time. The 3rd 744 is on testing and has recently been seen performing touch and goes in EZE - for testing purposes. The 4th 744 hasn't been delivered and I believe they were both something along 6 month late. This last one, is expected to be something around 10 months or a year late.

Quoting GusNYC (Reply 23):
My simple question is... who is right?

Hola Gustavo!

On the contrary, the question might be gramatically simple - but it is not simple at all, practically wise.

There are two stands here. The pilots and mechanics, that want their raise. And the company, that knows that the pilots and mechanics want raises and uses all the negotiating part and does not bother to stop the strikes. There's a dominant position that Aerolíneas Argentinas is having here, basically in the domestic market. They are the only carrier that flies to the whole country. Aerolíneas Argentinas flies to 33 destinations domestic, and Austral -sister airline- flies to them too. So, if the strike is up - there are no flights to those destination, and pretty much 90% of the country is stalled. Being the only airline in the market with true national presence, make this passengers stranded, complaining and generating chaos.
This way, they are pushing the government - that's already in decline for dealing incorrectly with things like piqueteros and shutting up everyone that denounces corruption on the president's 'protégés' - Lavagna is the most recent case here - to raise the bands or actually release them, so that the market would regulate the prices.
As Derico said, the strike is right - but the focus is wrong. The strategy of the strike is wrong. They are pointing to the passenger, who's not to blame for the actions of the company nor the Government. Perhaps the unions have the mentality of 2001/2002 where EVERYONE would go out and support them picketing Ricchieri Highway saying: 'Todos Somos Aerolíneas' [Everyone is Aerolineas] - to save the company from SEPI and American Airlines bankruptcy strategy. Now things, have changed. People has certainly gotten tired of disruptive methodology, like General Strikes that would only hurt them and never get to a point of getting anything to materialize of the objects that the protest was founded on.
The price barrier lift is due, or at least an update on the bands. Both sides are right, but on the other hand, both are wrong. Julio Scarmella, AR Spokesman said: 'Con las tarifas actuales, no podemos pagar más' ['With the current prices, we are not able to raise your wages'] - so in this way, the company is passing its bill [pasando factura] to the Government. So, they say, that if price bands are lifted - they will raise.

Hope this has been clear, both are right in their claims - but both are wrong in their methods.

Attention LAN, there might be a strike within the next few days.
Of course, we won't even notice because LAN's presence is minimal and AR and AU can cover up for them.

Cheers!  
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie

[Edited 2005-11-30 10:26:38]

EDIT: Grammar and spelling mistakes.

[Edited 2005-11-30 10:59:11]
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
aswissinmad
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:31 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 27):
LAN in an act of non-caring and refusal - has said it WILL NOT SELL any tickets to Aerolineas Argentinas, to cover up for the lack of flights to transport its passengers (will only sell in First Class) even though if there are seats available in all classes. This shows you how good LAN is. We shouldn't have sold LAN those seats when their first flight to COR failed miserably.

It's not that LAN will not sell tickets to AR, it's that the 2 airlines have no interline agreements whatsoever, from through-checking to ticketing etc... Therefore AR will not involuntary reroute pax on LA (or IB or most others)or endorse tickets to them as any AR documents are refused by non-interline partners. AR broke most of its agreements with other airlines when it went bankrupt a few years ago. The only major airlines they interline with ar LH, AF, LX and JK, plus a handfull of small carriers.

However LAN will gladly sell a ticket to any AR pax who wants to buy a new one, of course.
.
 
PDPsol
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:03 am

You guys are missing the big picture here; this issue is not so much a matter of "right and wrong", rather than a unsurprising result of the government's wimpy monetary policy and a volatile, militant labor movement.

Increased wage demands are occuring in ALL Argentine industries, not just civil aviation. It is a result of massive pent-up inflationary pressures stemming from three years of continous economic growth, nominal or non-existant investments in productive capacity and a politically-motivated monetary policy.

Minister Lavagna was fired by "K" for attempting to address these very same issues. The "Penguin" is in a huge bind and is terrified of hindering Argentina's economic growth with tightened monetary policy.

AR is but a mere actor in this play. While Marsans SA is doing what it can to run AR in the best way it knows how, it faces too many economic variables completely outside its control.
 
MD11junkie
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:51 am

Quoting ASWISSinMAD (Reply 28):
It's not that LAN will not sell tickets to AR, it's that the 2 airlines have no interline agreements whatsoever, from through-checking to ticketing etc... Therefore AR will not involuntary reroute pax on LA (or IB or most others)or endorse tickets to them as any AR documents are refused by non-interline partners

Sorry, but no. Yesterday, ARSA's Sales Manager [Gerente de Ventas] went to the LAN counters to buy tickets as a common customer - for the stranded passengers, LAN refused to sell him ANY ticket in coach. Only First Class was available for him to buy even though there was availability. That speaks pretty low of them, not that I'm shocked by their attitude - because I know how low they already are.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 29):
You guys are missing the big picture here; this issue is not so much a matter of "right and wrong", rather than a unsurprising result of the government's wimpy monetary policy and a volatile, militant labor movement.

The big picture is rather irrelevant to this specific matter. The real matter and the thing that is really important is that the whole country is on hold because of a bunch of nerds that has no clue on how to ask for something, and of company's board that is hated by the Argentine "president". The penguin will not interview, and will not negotiate the ticket price raise asked by AR a long time ago. So, what did Mata do? Leave it to the strike. Having the country paralized, Mata will have the dominant position to say - "We cannot afford the raises if you don't raise the price bands or lift them".

The inflationary process is BY NO MEANS to be controlled with a raise in the interest rates. That would be suicidal and would halt growth, inflation too due a stop in the overheating of the economy - and after a little while inflation will come back. Sounds familiar? Plan Austral, 1985. What the Central Bank needs to do is stop printing money and issueing bonds to make the dollar stay at its current level. Nowadays, the 'Banco Central de la República Argentina' is buying around 25-50 million dollars a day to keep the demand up. There's too much money circulating around - it's bringing the inflation back.
Argentina has by no means reached its production limited. It has reached the full of its existing production capacity. Raising interest rates is not the solution, cause it will halt any expansion on the Supply, while the demand will still be high and inflation will continue to ramp on the economy.

Cheers!  
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie

[Edited 2005-11-30 19:03:45]
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
MD80Nut
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:53 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 25):
Kind of banana republic in the tactics, but the US has had a long history of similar strikes, maybe not recently but sure as heck many in the past. Didn't Reagan have to intervene and fire a whole bunch of workers? A president, a polititian, intervining in a private market affair, sounds kind of banana republic. But it doesn't mean the US was a banana republic... or maybe it did, as Argentina may look now.

But striking US workers never have, to my knowledge, blocked the road to a major airport or threatened to blockade runways at airports. If anybody knows of any such incidents here, please enlighten me.

When I left EZE back in November 2001 at the end of a trip on AA, aircraft maintenance workers were raising holy hell at the Iberia counter (Iberia owned AR back then, of course), crowding the terminal area making it difficult to get to the counters of other airlines and threatening to storm the runways both there and at Aeroparque. It was a scary situation but fortunately the police kept it under control and my flight left on time.

I've also experienced the major traffic jams that develop in Buenos Aires when unions and the like blockade important thoroughfares throughout the city.

I've been to Argentina many times and love both the country and it's people, but their unions are like petulant children. They seem to care little for their fellow citizens. I can understand they want to protect their interests, but do they have to make everybody else's life hell? They need to grow up.

Cheers, Ralph
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
MD11junkie
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:49 pm

Hey Ralph,

I'm glad and happy that you still keep a positive thought about this country after all you've been through. Having that said - let's start.

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 31):
When I left EZE back in November 2001 at the end of a trip on AA, aircraft maintenance workers were raising holy hell at the Iberia counter (Iberia owned AR back then, of course), crowding the terminal area making it difficult to get to the counters of other airlines and threatening to storm the runways both there and at Aeroparque.

One minor correction there: IB stopped it's participation in AR and moved on, and the following 'owner' was the SEPI Sociedad Estatal de Participaciones Industriales of the Spanish Government [IB's former owner]. Back in 2001, the country was steering towards its worse economic crisis in its 185 years of existence. People were pretty sensitive of losing everything that remained to the country as a 'landmark' or 'distinction' around the world. Aerolíneas, and it's Cóndor was one of them. When all the AR/AU story started getting media coverage, the people got outraged [fueled by the government's 'heritage' excuse] and didn't want to lose, what we still consider our main icon, the thing that represents us the most, the Aerolíneas' Cóndor.
Under the slogan Todos somos Aerolíneas [We're all Aerolíneas], unions pledged the support of the people - which sympathized for the struggle of carrier's workers. The strikes, protesting against the current management and the demand for the carrier to be pulled out of its decreasing performance and put back on track, served the 'at the time' SEPI controlled management to declare that the company was 'unmanagable' due to the strikes. That was one step before bankruptcy and liquidation. Luckily, in 2002, SEPI agreed to sell Aerolíneas Argentinas to Tourism Group Marsans and to the Argentine Government [only 1,68%] - and that's how the conflict ended. But since then, no strike whatsoever has been supported by the general audience, and public. The AR strike of 2001 was a historic issue showing HOW MUCH the Argentine people loves its Flag Carrier.

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 31):
I've also experienced the major traffic jams that develop in Buenos Aires when unions and the like blockade important thoroughfares throughout the city.

These cut outs were not caused by the unions only - but by the piqueteros too, a bunch of freaks that want money for not working - of course, paid by the government. Police doesn't do a thing, because if not, they'd be called repressors and dictators.

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 31):
I've been to Argentina many times and love both the country and it's people, but their unions are like petulant children. They seem to care little for their fellow citizens. I can understand they want to protect their interests, but do they have to make everybody else's life hell? They need to grow up.

Excellent definition Ralph. Could not have said it better. Unions seem to still believe in that methodology that if they make everyone elses life hell, they will finally get the other guy's support and would eventually get what they wanted. That ideal has changed. Now, they just get against them - because they are bothering everyone else that's trying to work for a living.

Thank you for your kindness Ralph, we'll certainly be wanting you to come again, just hollar if you are.

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
gusnyc
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:00 am

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 31):
but their unions are like petulant children. They seem to care little for their fellow citizens. I can understand they want to protect their interests, but do they have to make everybody else's life hell? They need to grow up.

I agree with Gaston and with you Ralph. The unions in Argentina are keeping the country from becoming a grown-up nation. Their behavior is shameful and petulant.

Gus
 
MD80Nut
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:03 am

Thanks for the background on AR's situation back then. I haven't been to Argentina since 2002 unfortunately, I've always enjoyed my trips there even though they were just business. Even with the occasional inconvenience from protests and the like, I've always enjoyed being in the country. The closest I've been since 2002 was my trip to Santiago, Chile, about 3 months ago for a sterilizer installation.

I've flown on AR for most of my trips to Argentina, both to and from the US as well as domestic and have had mostly positive experiences with the airline. I want them to do well.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 32):
Thank you for your kindness Ralph, we'll certainly be wanting you to come again, just hollar if you are.

Thanks, I will. I hope I get to go soon!

Cheers, Ralph
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:46 am

How do you think this looong strike (with apparently no signs of being solved any time soon) will affect AR? The publicity is terrible. I don't any official data but I assume many cancelations are taking place. What can be the long term cost for the airline? (obviously something the people that are striking are not considering).

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 32):
Police doesn't do a thing, because if not, they'd be called repressors and dictators.

Como andas Gaston? todo bien?

As I mentioned earlier as well, no one is willing to pay the `political cost of a police repression. I hate police violence, but that does not imply that anyone for whatever reason can cut off the major avenues and highways. What these guys did on monday was a disgrace to the image of a country that has increasing tourism as a big source of income. I would like to see what these people think if they get fired because of the losses AR is making becuase of this strike....
regards
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
usatoeze
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:52 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 35):
As I mentioned earlier as well, no one is willing to pay the `political cost of a police repression. I hate police violence, but that does not imply that anyone for whatever reason can cut off the major avenues and highways. What these guys did on monday was a disgrace to the image of a country that has increasing tourism as a big source of income. I would like to see what these people think if they get fired because of the losses AR is making becuase of this strike....
regards

Very well said.

My Argentine wife and son flew to EZE from LA where we currently live to see her family and to do some maintenance on our tiny house in Villa de Mayo. This has made both of us very sad. Combine that with high inflation and the looming energy shortages on the horizon and this becomes an issue of confidence in Argentina for us. Lavagna leaving doesn't help either.

I hope all is well with everyone.


Cuidate,

Brad
War is a very poor political tool
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:39 am

Srike is off! The situation is slowly getting back to normal after the workers' got what they wanted (salary increase).
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/12/02/um/m-01100470.htm
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
SABE
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:12 am

Great news, Ezeiza! I'm landing in your namesake in less than a week and was afraid that because of the piqueteros I would have to walk all the way to the General Paz Avenue!  Smile

Anybody up for choripanes next Saturday?
TUS-DFW-EZE... can't wait to visit home again!
 
AA767400
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:30 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 26):
We shouldn't have sold LAN those seats when their first flight to COR failed miserably.

Gaston do you work for AR? Because you sure might as well be working for them.

AA764
"The low fares airline."
 
MD11junkie
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:38 am

Indeed, great news.

But this is yet to be resolved. They reached an initial agreement and the initial amount to be raised sums up to 450 pesos on every pilot category. This is just the initial agreement, as said before. There will be a 'truce' for 90 days, in where the government is expected to lift the bands or widen the spread between the lowest price and highest price bands. It is expected also that the unions and AR/AU management negotiate throughout the 90-day period, the wage increases to take place as soon as the government does its deed with the price bands. The Government WILL not do this until next year. They are very fearful of inflation - so they will not risk that air fares rise up the general inflation index.

Quoting SABE (Reply 37):
Anybody up for choripanes next Saturday?

Well, Saturday December 10th, is my birthday - so you can join us in the reunion we'll be doing. Big grin

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
MD11junkie
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:41 am

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 38):
Gaston do you work for AR? Because you sure might as well be working for them.

AA764

Nope, I wish I did. I know people in AR, but unfortunately, I can't get any job with them - time will let me get one, or not.  hyper 

I just rule out by the motto: Todos somos Aerolíneas

Cheers!
Gastón - The MD11 Junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
Derico
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:38 pm

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 28):
You guys are missing the big picture here; this issue is not so much a matter of "right and wrong", rather than a unsurprising result of the government's wimpy monetary policy and a volatile, militant labor movement.

Increased wage demands are occuring in ALL Argentine industries, not just civil aviation. It is a result of massive pent-up inflationary pressures stemming from three years of continous economic growth, nominal or non-existant investments in productive capacity and a politically-motivated monetary policy.

Minister Lavagna was fired by "K" for attempting to address these very same issues. The "Penguin" is in a huge bind and is terrified of hindering Argentina's economic growth with tightened monetary policy.

AR is but a mere actor in this play. While Marsans SA is doing what it can to run AR in the best way it knows how, it faces too many economic variables completely outside its control.



Quoting Usatoeze (Reply 35):
My Argentine wife and son flew to EZE from LA where we currently live to see her family and to do some maintenance on our tiny house in Villa de Mayo. This has made both of us very sad. Combine that with high inflation and the looming energy shortages on the horizon and this becomes an issue of confidence in Argentina for us. Lavagna leaving doesn't help either.

Guys, calm down. It was a strike. In Argentina. What a surprise. It's resolved (for now). bThe sky is not falling and actually things are not bad economy wise.

I think Pdpsol and Usatoeze don't fully understand the inflation situation. I'm sure as heck not here to defend Kirchner, as I hope he loses in 2007, but there is much less risk of a major inflationary spike for several reasons:

1. There is still significant unemployment in Argentina. MAJOR difference from the 80s. Yes some specialized sectors may be able to ask for wage hikes, but many other sectors, particularly retail, have still a large workforce out there looking for employment, specially young people and teens whom only now are beginning to have job opportunities nearly 4 years into this economic expansion. Back in the 80s, there was 'full employment' in Argentina because of all the inneficcient industries and bloated government, something not nearly the case now. The unemployment rate is a significant factor in inflationary (wage) pressures.

2. The is in fact more competition today than back in the 80s in several economic sectors. And productivity did improve in the 1990s, otherwise the economy would not have expanded 60% between 1990 and 1998 with rising unemployment. Obvisouly productivity improved.

3. Globalization. Keeping a closed economy is like in the last century is much harder. Globalization by nature at the present time is a deflationary force.

4. The Central Bank, in fact, is not printing currency to cover budget deficits, as was the case in the 80s, because for now there are budget surpluses.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:34 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 39):
Well, Saturday December 10th, is my birthday - so you can join us in the reunion we'll be doing.

en serio Gaston? Mine is December 11th Big grin

I work on Saturday, but probably only in the morning so I'm ok with a choripaneada! Let me know! (although I reccomend un "sanguche" de bondiola!!)
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
SABE
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas: 168 Pilots Fired!

Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:28 am

OK gentlemen, let's make it official by choosing a time and a place. I won't be able to stay too long since my layover in BUE is only 47 hours before I leave for the land of Arcano, and I have a lot of people to say hi to, but it sure would be nice to meet you in person and wish you happy birthdays!

--Lucas
TUS-DFW-EZE... can't wait to visit home again!