mham001
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Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:59 am

Emirates says it must be convinced the A350 will not repeat recent “misses” by Airbus in performance and delivery targets for new aircraft if it is to beat the Boeing 787 in the long-running battle to replace the airline’s 777-200ER fleet from the end of the decade.

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...mirates+wary+of+A350+promises.html
 
kappel
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:05 am

Interesting is that he also reaffirms that they will keep the a345's and take delivery of the a346's. But if A drops the ball here, it may have reprecussions for years to come, especially for such an important Airbus customer.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
dutchjet
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:08 am

Thanks for the article......really interesting and controversial.

I hope that the Airbus gang does not get too upset, but it is becoming clear that there are some problems in Tolouse, and that some Airbus products are missing their performance targets and that the A380 program is falling behind schedule is a VERY big deal to some key airlines. Airbus cannot afford for a customer like EK to be unhappy - it will be interesting to see if EK will order the A359 as everyone once expected?


Sidenote - The article says that EK will be keeping its FIVE A345s - dont they have TEN of the type?
 
N79969
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:24 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
Airbus cannot afford for a customer like EK to be unhappy

It is noteworthy that they made these comments public rather than confining them to private conversations with Airbus.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:32 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 3):
It is noteworthy that they made these comments public rather than confining them to private conversations with Airbus.

More incredible than noteworthy, N79969! I had thought that they were trying to squeeze Airbus on a future A350 order (and still get the deposits on the A340's moved!) but this article, and its pointed and direct warning to Airbus, indicates that something is amiss. Some on this forum will take strong exception to this, but this type of stuff usually happens behind the scenes, not in the trade pubs!
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
N79969
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:47 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 4):
More incredible than noteworthy, N79969! I had thought that they were trying to squeeze Airbus on a future A350 order (and still get the deposits on the A340's moved!) but this article, and its pointed and direct warning to Airbus, indicates that something is amiss. Some on this forum will take strong exception to this, but this type of stuff usually happens behind the scenes, not in the trade pubs!

I would not go that far. Several years ago, several Boeing customers made clear that they were not happy with the product quality (as in number of defects per aircraft) they were getting and it was reported not only in the specialized press but also in papers such as the Wall Street Journal. I do not think that was an accidental slip either. Embarassment can be a useful tool
 
boeingbus
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:53 am

Isn't competition great!!! I love it when a Airbus or Boeing earns their orders with great products, rather than attain them politically which happens so frequently.

Go Emirates!
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
av757
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:05 am

I guess Emirates is not very happy with their Airbus dispatch reliability and that design performance goals of the A340's have not been met with their fleet.

AV757
 
jacobin777
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:39 am

i've been a victim of EK's Airbus dispatch reliability problem a few times...I've had various EK flights delayed (by up to 7 hours) because of it...in fact, I avoid flying EK long haul now, especially when they use an Airbus plane on that particular route..ie.-such as JFK-DXB-JFK....
"Up the Irons!"
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:43 am

THIS IS A PR DISASTER!!!!

I can't think of a more devastating indictment than to have one of your best customers say "recent experiences with new Airbus types not meeting all the manufacturer’s promises is partly responsible for Emirates’ indecision."

Boeing doesn't have to trash talk Airbus. Emirates does it for them.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
N79969
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:27 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 9):
THIS IS A PR DISASTER!!!!

I can't think of a more devastating indictment than to have one of your best customers say "recent experiences with new Airbus types not meeting all the manufacturer’s promises is partly responsible for Emirates’ indecision."

I would not get too carried away. While it is a clear shot across their bow to explicitly warn Airbus against complacency, I do not think it is a "pr disaster." In fact, Emirates confirmed that they will take delivery of previously ordered A340 rather than cancelling them.

I think the message is that Airbus needs to tread carefully and should not take Emirates for granted.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:34 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 13):
I think the message is that Airbus needs to tread carefully and should not take Emirates for granted.

Agreed, just as NH took Boeing to public task over the 787's weight, and followed with public praise when they pretty much eliminated it or your points in Reply #5 about customers catigating Boeing in the WSJ.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:39 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 13):
In fact, Emirates confirmed that they will take delivery of previously ordered A340 rather than cancelling them.

Separate issue. Let's just take this at face value since they can use the aircraft. Also, could be that they can't get out of the order w/o a serious financial penalty? Or...they are still negotiating on the A350. Or...they have decided to go with the 787? Who knows? At least in this article the deliveries of the A346's are not tied into their dissatisfaction with "performance and delivery targets". IMO, this public rebuke stems from disappointment over the A380 delivery delay.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
HansaRostock
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:40 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 6):
Isn't competition great!!! I love it when a Airbus or Boeing earns their orders with great products, rather than attain them politically which happens so frequently.

signed!!

I'd love to see (and fly) Boeing AND Airbus as long as I live....who wants to stay with GM,Mecedes,Mazda or Renault (&Co) for 60 years??  Smile
Airlines pushing(warning) A&B is best for aviation....
Yoooo soy de HANSA....este sentimiento que me va a mataaaar....
 
KL808
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:44 am

I think the problem here is not with its A345 dispatch reliability, it has more to do with the un-satisfactory delay and problems with the current A380's.

If the dispatch reliability and performance of the A345 was SOOO BAD as every body is saying then why even bother keep the A346's order.

EK is happy with the birds, there is no reliable word that states otherwise.

The warning gives clear indication that the A350 is not in the bag, and if they are going to order a fare amount of the aircrafts such as the B787 and A350 it better arrive ON TIME and ORDERED TO SPEC.

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
N79969
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:49 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 16):
Let's just take this at face value since they can use the aircraft. Also, could be that they can't get out of the order w/o a serious financial penalty? Or...they are still negotiating on the A350. Or...they have decided to go with the 787? Who knows? At least in this article the deliveries of the A346's are not tied into their dissatisfaction with "performance and delivery targets". IMO, this public rebuke stems from disappointment over the A380 delivery delay.


Perhaps you are right...or not. Anyway my point is that this pronouncement is not quite a "disaster." A PR (and financial) disaster would be if Emirates would be if they cancelled some or all of their outstanding Airbus orders and ordered Boeing aircraft in their place. That would require some heroic PR work to fix. I do not expect this to ever happen.
 
blue787
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:44 pm

Dutchjet, not only do Airbus not want upset only EK,but also SQ and QF, will not be happy little campers if Airbus start yanking their chains.They too have reputations to upkeep.Thing of the people in scheduling and marketing.It will not make their life easy.
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:22 pm

Quoting N79969 (Reply 5):
I would not go that far. Several years ago, several Boeing customers made clear that they were not happy with the product quality (as in number of defects per aircraft) they were getting and it was reported not only in the specialized press but also in papers such as the Wall Street Journal. I do not think that was an accidental slip either. Embarassment can be a useful tool

Going from memory, I believe these items were leaked from someone within Boeing from what I would call normal communication between the customer and Boeing (all technical discussions/questions/answers are kept in a database per FAA rules).

Customers are constantly complaining about one thing or another to both Airbus and Boeing, but isn't meant to be released to the public, but more of the squeaky wheel syndrome, as everyone thinks their problem of the day is more important than someone elses.

Cheers
 
Glareskin
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:29 pm

Quoting N79969 (Reply 13):
I think the message is that Airbus needs to tread carefully and should not take Emirates for granted.

 checkmark 
And this is the reason why they do it publicly rather than behind closed doors with Airbus staff. I cannot think of a better warning just one week after placing a mammoth order with the competition.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
PlaneDane
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:55 pm

Quoting KL808 (Reply 18):
The warning gives clear indication that the A350 is not in the bag, and if they are going to order a fare amount of the aircrafts such as the B787 and A350 it better arrive ON TIME and ORDERED TO SPEC.

Drew

Might we be seeing that Leahy's claim of 200 orders for the A350 by year-end is in jeopardy? After all, many of us assumed that Leahy's figure included an EK order.

[Edited 2005-11-29 07:07:47]
 
atmx2000
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:26 pm

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 23):
Might we be seeing that Leahy's claim of 200 orders for the A350 by year-end is in jeopardy? After all, many of us assumed that Leahy's figure included an EK order.

I think he would be a fool if was counting on that order. But they seem to be getting enough orders from Europe and the Middle East so that they have a chance without EK and that might be why he is reiterating the 200 figure.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
jwenting
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:31 pm

Quoting N79969 (Reply 3):
It is noteworthy that they made these comments public rather than confining them to private conversations with Airbus.

They probably made the same concerns known to Airbus several times already and never got a response or were simply denied that there was a problem at all.

Quoting HansaRostock (Reply 17):
Airlines pushing(warning) A&B is best for aviation....

Douglas and Lockheed forever  Smile

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 11):
Are all the AB stalwarts asleep or hiding?!?!? Nothing from UDO and the like??!?!? Are some people away on vacation??? The silence is defeaning!!!

Keesje is still asleep I think, or maybe getting dressed to go to school by now  Smile

Quoting KL808 (Reply 18):
I think the problem here is not with its A345 dispatch reliability, it has more to do with the un-satisfactory delay and problems with the current A380's.

I think rather it's the fact that there are problems time and again, reliability of the 345, performance of others, now the delay in the 380.
Emirates is asking publicly whether they should believe any Airbus claim anymore...
I wish I were flying
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:50 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 25):
Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 20):
I heard that Qantas aren't too pleased with how the A380 is going, as they have had to significantly reduce to seat count due the airframe weight issues and Airbus' stance that it could be recovered via a reduction in interior weight.
Qantas' problem is the seats they purchased aren't light, therefore they had to reduce the number.

I heard.........from NAV20

Ah, bulk buying power! No wonder EK bought 43 - they get the lightweight A388's that they can put 650 seats in....

It appears not... LOL
 
ual747den
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:56 pm

Airbus needs to stop what they are doing and take a look at how Boeing markets new aircraft. Boeing only promises what it can deliver and in most cases they deliver better than what they promised. Customers are not worried about placing an order for a paper aircraft at Boeing because they know that the specs will be met or exceeded. Airbus has failed to deliver on promise time after time and continues to do so with the A380. They have the loudest marketing department and they are always out there but they are out there giving bad information.

The largest downside to the way Boeing does marketing is that they have lost orders due to under estimating their numbers, however as we have learned with the EK order they can still get those orders back!

It comes down to trust. If the airlines cant trust Airbus because they promise one thing and deliver another the customer will never know what the hell they are going to get. The airlines will stop ordering paper airplanes and Airbus will not have any orders until the aircraft are built, but without the orders the aircraft will never launch.?..?...
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:00 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
Sidenote - The article says that EK will be keeping its FIVE A345s - dont they have TEN of the type?

They probably don't have a lot of choice, as they sold and leased back several of these airplanes.

Cheers
 
797charter
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:00 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 6):
Isn't competition great!!! I love it when a Airbus or Boeing earns their orders with great products, rather than attain them politically which happens so frequently.

You are right!
A "fight of the Giants" is going on out there!
And the Winner is: You and mere, - we get (at least) two new superior airplanes, which is good for the ticket price we have to pay, the environment and a lot of other things.
Keep it clear of the propellers
 
keesje
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:12 pm

Discount times at A are over. Airlines hate it. It´s tough negotations, anything to get the prices down.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
FCKC
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:17 pm

That's great Emirates point out they feeling publicaly , and not secretly.
Are we enter a new era , where some informations will go public ?
Very exciting for all of us.
 
Toulouse
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:42 pm

Quoting N79969 (Reply 5):
I would not go that far. Several years ago, several Boeing customers made clear that they were not happy with the product quality (as in number of defects per aircraft) they were getting and it was reported not only in the specialized press but also in papers such as the Wall Street Journal. I do not think that was an accidental slip either. Embarassment can be a useful tool

Very well put, and I was also thinking how they could use this "embarassement" as a "useful tool".

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 6):
Isn't competition great!!! I love it when a Airbus or Boeing earns their orders with great products, rather than attain them politically which happens so frequently.

Well said BoeingBus!

Quoting KL808 (Reply 14):
I think the problem here is not with its A345 dispatch reliability, it has more to do with the un-satisfactory delay and problems with the current A380's.

If the dispatch reliability and performance of the A345 was SOOO BAD as every body is saying then why even bother keep the A346's order.

EK is happy with the birds, there is no reliable word that states otherwise.

The warning gives clear indication that the A350 is not in the bag, and if they are going to order a fare amount of the aircrafts such as the B787 and A350 it better arrive ON TIME and ORDERED TO SPEC.

Agreed!

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 17):
Customers are constantly complaining about one thing or another to both Airbus and Boeing, but isn't meant to be released to the public, but more of the squeaky wheel syndrome, as everyone thinks their problem of the day is more important than someone elses.

Agreed!

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 23):
They have the loudest marketing department and they are always out there but they are out there giving bad information

Very ture UAL747DEN, funny before reading this I was only talking with my wife over breakfast how the marketing people here at Airbus are a little too agressive and optimistic. Sometimes I feel that the A. matketing teams have little contact with or ignore the design office, engineers etc. at Airbus.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
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glideslope
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:20 pm

Quoting Mham001 (Thread starter):
Emirates says it must be convinced the A350 will not repeat recent ?misses? by Airbus in performance and delivery targets for new aircraft if it is to beat the Boeing 787 in the long-running battle to replace the airline?s 777-200ER fleet from the end of the decade.

http://www.flightinternational.com/A....html

No surprise here. This is Airbus' #1 problem. Due mainly to the Mouth of Mr. Leahy over the past 5 years.

As I have stated for the past 18 months, the 380 must meet or exceed it's claims if Airbus is going to prosper in the future. Of course not actually having to sell airframes to raise R&D capitol helps.  Smile

Operators simply no longer believe the pre-flight hype.

Not a good situation for a business that depends so heavily on "Launch Customers."

Replace Mr. Leahy Airbus. Admission is the first step toward recovery.  Smile
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
Joni
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:34 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 23):
Airbus has failed to deliver on promise time after time and continues to do so with the A380.

Could you mention a few such misses? I can really only think of the A380 delay. AFAIK the A345 and A346 have exceeded their performance targets and the original 330/340 met them.
 
jush
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:43 pm

It could be a bit of strategy to further drop the price of future A350, couldn't it?

Regds
jush
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
abba
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:42 pm

Quoting N79969 (Reply 5):
I would not go that far. Several years ago, several Boeing customers made clear that they were not happy with the product quality (as in number of defects per aircraft) they were getting and it was reported not only in the specialized press but also in papers such as the Wall Street Journal. I do not think that was an accidental slip either. Embarassment can be a useful tool

And one of the Japan airlines have been telling Boeing that they were very unhappy with the 787 being overweight.

It is always good when it is the buyer's rather than the seller's market.

Abba
 
atmx2000
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:57 pm

Quoting Abba (Reply 32):
And one of the Japan airlines have been telling Boeing that they were very unhappy with the 787 being overweight.

No, they were concerned that the 787 was going to be overweight based on current design specs, not that it was an overweight aircraft as no 787 has been built yet. But Boeing reduced weight significantly recently so now it is ahead of where other projects were at a similar point in development, though still overweight.

In contrast, EK is unhappy about Airbus's pattern of not delivering on promises, with the obvious implication that they think that what Airbus ends up making won't be what Airbus promised. That is a big difference.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
JetMaster
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:00 pm

Quoting AV757 (Reply 7):
I guess Emirates is not very happy with their Airbus dispatch reliability and that design performance goals of the A340's have not been met with their fleet.

Dispatch reliability of which type? A313, A332, A343 or A345? Have there ever been reports on that? And have there been reports of EK having problems with the A345's performance?

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 8):
i've been a victim of EK's Airbus dispatch reliability problem a few times...I've had various EK flights delayed (by up to 7 hours) because of it

When did that happen exactly? Just lately?

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 9):
THIS IS A PR DISASTER!!!!

It's definitely bad PR and will cause some headache at Toulouse, but I wouldn't call it a disaster.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 21):
I think rather it's the fact that there are problems time and again, reliability of the 345, performance of others, now the delay in the 380.

"Time and again", "performance of others" - can you specify?

Quoting Jush (Reply 31):
It could be a bit of strategy to further drop the price of future A350, couldn't it?

Could be part of a plan, yes.


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
vinniewinnie
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:22 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 23):
It comes down to trust. If the airlines cant trust Airbus because they promise one thing and deliver another the customer will never know what the hell they are going to get. The airlines will stop ordering paper airplanes and Airbus will not have any orders until the aircraft are built, but without the orders the aircraft will never launch.?..?...

That's a bit far fetched I find! Especially if you have the A380 in mind! We don't even know how well it will perform in the future since it hasn't been entered into service yet.

If airlines had gradually started to lose trust in Airbus Airbus would be dead! But no even leasing companies which don't really care about the origin of the aircraft manufacturers have started to buy A350's! That must mean something no?

About the marketing didn't Boeing also advertise heavily it's newly launched B747 in the 70's? It's only fair game I find to advertise something brand new which will surprise and amaze people!

PS: Getting bored of the A350 magazine adverts as well: they appear every week and take up 4 full pages! Silly and a turn off I find!
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:34 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 21):
They probably made the same concerns known to Airbus several times already and never got a response or were simply denied that there was a problem at all.

I agree...by making their displeasure clear in public they turned up the heat a notch on Airbus.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 26):
Discount times at A are over. Airlines hate it. It´s tough negotations, anything to get the prices down.

Of course....this is it! The massive B777 order last week and the complaints this week is simply Emirates angling to get a few percentage points knocked off an even bigger A340 order that is imminent.

How could I have missed something so obvious?
 
Cruiser
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:23 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 33):
But Boeing reduced weight significantly recently so now it is ahead of where other projects were at a similar point in development, though still overweight.

It is about 1-2% off of the target. This is ahead of schedule with regards to the weight of the plane. The A380 was happy that they got it to within +1.5% of its originally announced weight. There was a thread regarding this about 3 weeks ago.

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
keesje
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:11 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 36):
Of course....this is it! The massive B777 order last week and the complaints this week is simply Emirates angling to get a few percentage points knocked off an even bigger A340 order that is imminent.

An even bigger A340 order? N79969, what are you talking about? Any links?

I think we can not make assumptions on price & conditions, which are obviously very important.

Price dumping (Airbus) or aggresive pricing (Boeing) can play a very important role. EK is still out to replace their fleet of Boeing 777-200ER's.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
astuteman
Posts: 6340
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:13 am

Quoting AV757 (Reply 7):
I guess Emirates is not very happy with their Airbus dispatch reliability and that design performance goals of the A340's have not been met with their fleet.



Quoting KL808 (Reply 14):
it has more to do with the un-satisfactory delay and problems with the current A380's.

Suspect you're right. EK are capacity hungry, and want their planes NOW

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 22):
It appears not... LOL

As Airbus haven't anywhere near delivered an A380 to EK yet, I struggle to understand why your rumour of supposed A380 underperformance is relevant to this particular conversation.

My rumours of "mythical" A340 models are now well in the public domain. Where's the supporting evidence for yours?

Suggest you either "put up" or "shut up". If you "put up", I will graciously defer......
 
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N328KF
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:16 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 38):
An even bigger A340 order? N79969, what are you talking about? Any links?

Did they teach you sarcasm in school?
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
Cruiser
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:20 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 38):
Price dumping (Airbus) or aggresive pricing (Boeing) can play a very important role. EK is still out to replace their fleet of Boeing 777-200ER's.

It comes down to a little bit more than price. EK wants a decent delivery date. If delivery date wasn't an issue, then it sounds like EK would order 50 787's on the spot judging by that article. That said, they are trying to get Airbus to give them the plane that they want, and are trying to prove that no one can take them for granted!

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:26 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 38):
An even bigger A340 order? N79969, what are you talking about? Any links?

He's joking, K. His point was: price reduction on what? A huge A340 order?  Wink

Of course the answer is, price reduction on the A359, the topic of the article to begin with. They want Airbus to convince them that they should choose the later to market, more nebulous A359 over what is become more and more tangible in the 789/10, especially because EK is happy with their 773ERs and believe the 787 will be of the same quality.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Cruiser
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Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:08 am

RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:34 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 36):
Of course....this is it! The massive B777 order last week and the complaints this week is simply Emirates angling to get a few percentage points knocked off an even bigger A340 order that is imminent.

How could I have missed something so obvious?

You should be careful - I think Keesje almost had a heart-attack there!  Wink

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
keesje
Posts: 8598
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RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:08 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 43):
You should be careful - I think Keesje almost had a heart-attack there!



Quoting N328KF (Reply 40):
Did they teach you sarcasm in school?

No, thats unusual around here.

 Wink
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:57 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 30):
Could you mention a few such misses? I can really only think of the A380 delay. AFAIK the A345 and A346 have exceeded their performance targets and the original 330/340 met them.

The A340 has had many many problems meeting expectations. Airlines have publicly voiced their dissatisafication with it on many occations. Then of course the A380 and A350 will be the next in my opinion.
Now that said I do think that the A340 is a great aircraft, just not what was promoised to begin with.

Quoting VinnieWinnie (Reply 35):
That's a bit far fetched I find! Especially if you have the A380 in mind! We don't even know how well it will perform in the future since it hasn't been entered into service yet.

Well the delay has been a very big problem.
The weight is still over.
Seperation will end up being a larger problem than anyone imagined.
And there is more...........

Quoting VinnieWinnie (Reply 35):
If airlines had gradually started to lose trust in Airbus Airbus would be dead! But no even leasing companies which don't really care about the origin of the aircraft manufacturers have started to buy A350's! That must mean something no?

First it is clear that airlines have "gradually started to lose turis in Airbus" from the article. Did you read it, that is what it was about?
Second, with leasing companies signing on to the A350 this early in the game it tells me that Airbus is offering rock bottom pricing.

Quoting VinnieWinnie (Reply 35):
About the marketing didn't Boeing also advertise heavily it's newly launched B747 in the 70's? It's only fair game I find to advertise something brand new which will surprise and amaze people!

I dont think that there is anything wrong with advertising in fact I love it. The only complaint I have is that when you advertise somthing you have to deliver on what was advertised, Airbus hassn't dont that......
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
Xkorpyoh
Posts: 727
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:55 am

RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:32 am

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 45):
I dont think that there is anything wrong with advertising in fact I love it. The only complaint I have is that when you advertise somthing you have to deliver on what was advertised, Airbus hassn't dont that

I was just reading Newsweek and saw a 3 page ad for the A350. First page claims that it will save more fuel than its competitor currently operating (but it doesn't mention the 772), 2nd Page: that it carries more passengers and therefore decreases the trip cost offered by "its future competitor" (doesn't mention the 787), finally, 3rd page: Uses more advanced materials making it better (?!?!?!)... Each page ends with "A350: THE MOST TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCED PLANE"

..SO... They are already exagerating everything with the advertisiment about the A350 and claiming is the best when nothing has been proven. Those kind of claims is what EK is complaining about. Everyone has an opinion, but the facts are very clear about which plane is really the most technologically advanced.
 
jacobin777
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Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:17 pm

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 34):

When did that happen exactly? Just lately?

correct, during the past year, I've flown on EK more than 1/2 dozen times (with the last being in September).......and it has happened to me on my last trip...

I loved flying with EK during the mid to late 1990's and up to 2001, but after 2001, it seems as if their standards have gone down a bit....that being said, they are still a heck of a carrier and a lot better then most of the other carriers I've flown on.......but I've never flown on QR so I can't make a judgement on them....
"Up the Irons!"
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:32 pm

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 46):
. Each page ends with "A350: THE MOST TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCED PLANE"

These ads are based on partial-truth and untruths...and they are annoying...especially the pop-ups. I think Airbus is resorting to bombardment and endless repetition into fooling people into thinking it is actually true.

The 787 is the true clean-sheet design.
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Emirates Wary Of Airbus Promises

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:54 pm

Quoting Mham001 (Thread starter):
Emirates says it must be convinced the A350 will not repeat recent “misses” by Airbus in performance and delivery targets for new aircraft if it is to beat the Boeing 787 in the long-running battle to replace the airline’s 777-200ER fleet from the end of the decade.

With the track recent record of Airbus, can't say I blame them much. First the A-340 fiasco, now the A-380 launch delays, and an another unproven airplane?

Boeing may grab this one after all.............with a 787-10.
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