boeing767-300
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:37 pm

And the Translation equals, "Boeing has creamed us with the 300ER and 200LR in operating efficiency"

We will promise the customers everything to halt the shift to Boeing in the 777/A340 Battle.

I would be skeptical as to any claims made by A in this instance. Emirates has already made it known that they to azre skeptical regarding Airbus claims given their recent tardy record.

Do Leahy/Forgeard not think GE will be able to improve 115B efficiency therefore negating any 'proposed' improvement in the RR Trent.

Airbus needs to face the facts. A346 is too heavy and the quad as in RR Trent 500 too inefficient to compete with 300ER/200LR and Airlines have clearly voted with their ordering recently.

Airlines are not stupid and A is seriously lacking the 'twin knockout punch' that is 787/777X. A350/A346 is seriously lacking. Have you ever known a relatively new model outclassed and outdated so quickly. A380 and and 747-8 aside the market is moving from quads to twins and you have to admire Boeing's courage in pushing the concept so hard in 1990 (Aircraft Size/engine power to do it)

Does anybody actually believe this crap A puts out. They seem to be floundering around not really knowing what to do......  Wink
 
rjpieces
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:40 pm

Does anybody have firm numbers of orders to compare?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
na
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:06 pm

"Sources say the combination of weight-savings and new-generation engines should enable the A340-600E to offer significantly better operating cost and range performance than the 777-200LR/300ER – which is now regarded as the benchmark, long-range airliner family in the 300-400 seat sector. Industry estimates suggest the 777-300ER has an 8-9% fuel burn advantage over the A340-600, and the Enhanced’s upgraded engines alone should erode this by 6-7%."

While I guess Boeing won´t be sleeping until then its good to know that at least one Quad will still compete underneath the Jumbos.
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:17 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 3):
Industry estimates suggest the 777-300ER has an 8-9% fuel burn advantage over the A340-600, and the Enhanced’s upgraded engines alone should erode this by 6-7%."

At least A does agree A340 is getting creamed fuel-burn wise by the 773ER.

Airbus should have learned from Boeing's 764ER project and although B didn't lose money on it, it never worked the way they wanted it to contrary to many beliefs that the plane was meant for DL and CO only. My take is, give it up Leahy boys and concentrate on making the A350 better. You have bigger problems to worry about coz the quads will not be able to compete with B's twins.
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na
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:55 pm

Base price of an A346 is about 30 million bucks lower than the 773ER. You can buy a lot of fuel for that!
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:02 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 5):
Base price of an A346 is about 30 million bucks lower than the 773ER. You can buy a lot of fuel for that!

That's the base price for the current A346. There's no price tag for the proposed one and you can bet it'll be more expensive than the current one. Tell that to all the 773ER operators  biggrin 
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
Cruiser
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:11 pm

With all of the recent orders for the 773ER, you can bet that this version of the A340 was at least offered to the airlines. It didn't just happen overnight (well, maybe it did), but I suspect that the airlines looked at it and said that it isn't worth getting an extra 2% over the 773ER, because by then, then 773ER may have improved another 5%, and the numbers are very real for the 773ER.

With all of the additional orders from current operators of the 773ER, it is apparent that it is one heck of a plane, that all airlines love!

As other have said, it is a 15 year old design. It is time for Airbus to look to the future with the A350.

James
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N79969
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:17 pm

I am no aerospace engineer but I am a bit skeptical that Airbus revamp can the A340 enough to make it truly competitive with the 777 with the changes they propose.

Airbus also seems to assume that Boeing will stand still with respect to the B777...but Airbus has to do something about the beating that A340 is receiving.
 
krisyyz
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:35 pm

I really think that Airbus should slowly remove the A340 family from life support and let it die. Let’s face it, the A340s have had a good life, you could even say a successful career. But the A340 in my opinion has no future, even if you give it new engines and new wings.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 1):
Airbus needs to face the facts. A346 is too heavy and the quad as in RR Trent 500 too inefficient to compete with 300ER/200LR and Airlines have clearly voted with their ordering recently

Very true!! AC , hello B777 goodbye A333/343/345 and cancellation of the A346 order. I bet some airlines will follow this trend.


Krisyyz
 
JetMaster
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:38 pm

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 7):
As other have said, it is a 15 year old design. It is time for Airbus to look to the future with the A350.

According to that logic, the B739ER would be a 38 year old design...  Wink

Anyways, Airbus has no choice but to enhance the A345/A346 because the A350 is not planned to compete with B772LR and B773ER.


Regards,
JM
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N79969
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 10):
Airbus has no choice but to enhance the A345/A346 because the A350 is not planned to compete with B772LR and B773ER.

Airbus could be trapped now with the A340. They will need a better long term solution.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 10):
According to that logic, the B739ER would be a 38 year old design...

But it is not getting decimated by the competition.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:51 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 3):
"Sources say the combination of weight-savings and new-generation engines should enable the A340-600E to offer significantly better operating cost and range performance than the 777-200LR/300ER – which is now regarded as the benchmark, long-range airliner family in the 300-400 seat sector. Industry estimates suggest the 777-300ER has an 8-9% fuel burn advantage over the A340-600, and the Enhanced’s upgraded engines alone should erode this by 6-7%."

I worked on a proposed engine for the A345/346 that had an 11% drop in fuel burn; we dropped the project as it wasn't seen as competitive with the 773ER! So I hope Airbus can come up with a better solution than 6 to 7%. Four engines are very expensive to maintain... If an engine with an 11 bypass ratio wasn't enough... I do not see how a 9.5 bypass ratio would be attractive.

Sorry to be so negative on the A340, but the aircraft would have to drop several tons of weight to compete. Also, do note that this new A340-600E is going to be competing agains a 772LR/773ER that has six more years of production experience behind it; thus that $30 million price gap will probably shrink.

Also, with that time Airbus readuce fuel burn by 6%! (Rule of thumb in the industry is airframe/engine efficiency should improve 1% per year.)

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 7):
As other have said, it is a 15 year old design. It is time for Airbus to look to the future with the A350.

 checkmark  Like it or not, Airbus needs to focus on a product that is significantly more economical.

Lightsaber
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sabenapilot
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:52 pm

There was a very interesting discussion a few days/weeks ago on how airbus could succesfully sex-up the A340 to make it compete with the 777.

For once this discussion didn't produce the regular blablabla like we usually get to read here

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 8):
Just more vaporware from the Toulouse crackhouse.

but actually gave us a good technical insight in what and how it could be done.

go to:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...ion/read.main/2448360/6/#ID2448360
and scroll down abit till it get's started.... best discussion on the site in weeks in my view!

It might prove to be complicated to follow for those not used to work with performance formulae, but the bottom line was that is IS possible, although after some discussion back and forth on the interpretation and the importance of the different parameters in the formula, it was determined the A340Enhanced would need more than just an engine swap.

However, if Airbus can easily start with giving the A340 an equal fuel flow as its Boeing's competitor thanks to the much lower fuel burn of the next generation of medium thrust engines despite its higher Empty Operating Weight, lightens up the wing structure to reflex the reduced tank capacity needed AND incorporates A350 technology in the fuselage, the A340E seems to be an unbeatable product!

Ironically, what has been the main advantage of the 777 over the A340 for much of the past decade (i.e. : it being a twin) might now turn out to be its biggest handicap to succesfully react to this move from Airbus as there is will be no less thirsty alternative for its high thrust engines on the horizon ans a structural fix of the 777 alone would likely not do the trick...

Enjoy the reading!
 
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:53 pm

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 10):
According to that logic, the B739ER would be a 38 year old design... Wink

Very true. I thought about this as I was typing it. However, the second the 777 entered service, the A340 was inferior, and I agree, my logic was not sound. However, every time the A340 has been updated, it has not been upgraded to the point where it is superior to the 777. In fact, Airbus always designs it based on the current 777 when in fact the A340 model will not fly for a few years. Airbus just thinks that the 777 will stand still.

Soon, we will see that Airbus will have a distinct gap in their lineup between the A359 and the A380. The A340 will no longer be competitive, and they will be forced to update the A320. It looks like the Airbus drought (well, I can hardly call it that!) will last for a number of years yet!

James
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JetMaster
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:53 pm

Quoting N79969 (Reply 11):

But it is not getting decimated by the competition.

The point was to make clear that A345/A346 are not 15 year old designs.


Regards,
JM
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jaysit
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:00 am

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 1):
A380 and and 747-8 aside the market is moving from quads to twins and you have to admire Boeing's courage in pushing the concept so hard in 1990 (Aircraft Size/engine power to do it)

A very interesting historical development given that when Airbus first launched the A300, Boeing pooh pooh'd the whole wide-bodied twin concept.
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N79969
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:04 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 15):
The point was to make clear that A345/A346 are not 15 year old designs.


Jetzt ich verstehe...
 
11Bravo
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:15 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 10):
Anyways, Airbus has no choice but to enhance the A345/A346 because the A350 is not planned to compete with B772LR and B773ER.

Sure they have a choice. They can build a new aircraft to compete in this catagory. If Airbus goes with an enhanced A345/A346, Boeing will counter with improvements to the B772LR/B773ER, and Airbus will end up exactly where they are today having spent several billion euros in the process. The problem for Airbus here is weight. They cannot make the A345/A346 airframe lighter than the B772LR/B773ER by "enhancing" it. The only real prospect for beating the Boeing twins would be for Airbus to build a new aircraft.
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ikramerica
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:15 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 10):
According to that logic, the B739ER would be a 38 year old design...  

Just shows how they got it right by offering a small twin with in/under wing engines so long ago, while most of the competition was working tail mounted options.

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 14):
However, the second the 777 entered service, the A340 was inferior

That's the key. While I think the 737 is in dire need of a new design, it is still selling well because it has a modern wing (with optional advantageous winglets), a modern flight deck, and modern engines that keep it relatively on par with the A320, which has older wings at this point, a more modern flight deck (by design), and relatively equal engines. And because the A320 is also a twin, it doesn't have an inherent advantage in economics, especially due to it's weight, but does due to pax space and cargo for airlines who value those things (and for it's intended mission, not all do). There are enough factors for an airline to choose one or the other and not regret it later either way.

But the 777 does have an inherent advantage over the A340. 2 modern engines are more efficient than 4 modern engines when you factor in ALL costs. There's no way around it. Using more "efficient" engines to make it better is not a viable solution because the competition can always do the same to negate it. Lightening various components is not the answer either, as the competition can do the same. Those 2 extra engines will always be there, however.

Which is why the best solution for Airbus would be to "A350" the A340 by offering a 346 length A350 with 8000nm range, with the A350 wings and with 2 engines, not 4. My guess is they are just waiting on the right engines to make this a reality.
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ka
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:24 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 9):
Let’s face it, the A340s have had a good life, you could even say a successful career. But the A340 in my opinion has no future, even if you give it new engines and new wings.

The same sentence could stand for the B747. Still B doesn´t want to stop the program, why should A end theirs??

KA.
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astuteman
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 20):
Airbus will end up exactly where they are today having spent several billion euros in the process

Airbus WON'T spend several billion Euros on the A346E!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
Which is why the best solution for Airbus would be to "A350" the A340 by offering a 346 length A350 with 8000nm range, with the A350 wings and with 2 engines, not 4. My guess is they are just waiting on the right engines to make this a reality.

I suspect your comment regarding the engines is VERY relevant.  checkmark 
 
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Revelation
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:34 am

Quoting NA (Reply 3):
Industry estimates suggest the 777-300ER has an 8-9% fuel burn advantage over the A340-600, and the Enhanced�s upgraded engines alone should erode this by 6-7%

But 6-7% of 8-9% is only 0.5%! Journalists!
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JetMaster
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:34 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 20):
They can build a new aircraft to compete in this catagory.



Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 20):
The only real prospect for beating the Boeing twins would be for Airbus to build a new aircraft.

True, but Airbus is not in a position to develop a completely new design while working on the A350, A380/F and A400M projects.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
Just shows how they got it right by offering a small twin with in/under wing engines so long ago, while most of the competition was working tail mounted options.

Sure it shows a lot, but my point was another one. See reply 15.


Regards,
JM
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atmx2000
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:35 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 23):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
Which is why the best solution for Airbus would be to "A350" the A340 by offering a 346 length A350 with 8000nm range, with the A350 wings and with 2 engines, not 4. My guess is they are just waiting on the right engines to make this a reality.

Those engines would be a very nice upgrade for 772ER operators.
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RayChuang
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:42 am

I think what Airbus is seriously looking at is an A340-500/600 model using derivatives of the Trent 1700 engine now in development for the A350. If Rolls-Royce can deliver the promises on this engine they could extend the range of the A346 to as much as 8,400 nautical miles still-air, which would make it quite attractive to a number of airlines that has to do a lot of over-water flying (e.g., South African Airways for starters).
 
mdsh00
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:44 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 17):
While I know you are being sarcastic, it is wrong to be dismissive of the operating performance of the 777-200LR/-300ER.

It's Solnabo! You could put an "Airbus" logo on a turd and he would sing praises of it.  Smile

An A340E? I'm not sure. Like someone else said, A would probably be better off concentrating on the A350, but I guess there's no harm in trying.
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astuteman
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:46 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
But 6-7% of 8-9% is only 0.5%! Journalists!

It was only a matter of time...  checkmark 
Nice one
 
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Revelation
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:47 am

Quoting Ka (Reply 22):
The same sentence could stand for the B747. Still B doesn�t want to stop the program, why should A end theirs??

One could argue both programs are mistakes. They are probably being done to protect a market segment, rather than to make large profits. They will probably both tie up critical resources such as design and flight test engineers that could be applied to next generation projects instead of respins of current generation projects.
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:52 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 13):
A350 technology in the fuselage, the A340E seems to be an unbeatable product!

If that ends up to be true, then I can suspect that Boeing will do exactly the same, use the advances and technology of the 777 line and apply it to the new 748 thus making it the "unbeatable product!"

[Edited 2005-11-29 16:58:52]
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Amy
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:54 am

I don't think Airbus is looking to set the world on fire with this project. The A350 is still their aircraft of the future, I don't think they are naive enough to think that an uprated A340 could really 'beat' the T7.

What they might think however is that current A340 operators such as LH, SAA, IB etc. might be interested in a more economical version of the A340 to complement and maybe in some places replace their current fleet.

The 767-400 has already been mentioned here and with good reason. So it only sold to two operators. So what? If it made Boeing some cash and kept these operators from going Airbus, good for them. Likewise, this A340E COULD stop current A340 customers from going Boeing.

Time will tell.

Edit: Personally, anything that brings a new kind of aircraft into the skies for me to look at is a good thing (especially if it's an A340!)

[Edited 2005-11-29 16:56:06]
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ikramerica
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:59 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 18):
A very interesting historical development given that when Airbus first launched the A300, Boeing pooh pooh'd the whole wide-bodied twin concept.

At the time, twins for that size planes were impractical for the kind of missions that companies were targeting. MD and Lockheed both thought of making their jets twins only to make them tri-jets for improve lift and range. It took Airbus many more years to make a really viable A300-600. The 767 and 757 are both proof that Boeing took the twin concept seriously for larger planes, but it was over 10 years to 'get it right' which is evidenced by the 2000 deliveries of the pair. The A330 is the plane Airbus always wanted the A300 to be, and it took many years to get there.

Quoting Ka (Reply 22):
The same sentence could stand for the B747. Still B doesn´t want to stop the program, why should A end theirs??



Quoting Revelation (Reply 30):
One could argue both programs are mistakes. They are probably being done to protect a market segment, rather than to make large profits. They will probably both tie up critical resources such as design and flight test engineers that could be applied to next generation projects instead of respins of current generation projects.

Where are the front loading A340 freighters? You guys are forgetting that part of the 747 equation. There is a large long term market for freighters of the 747 and A380 size. There is a market for freighters in the A340 size as well, but not necessarily at that upper deck width and height at that capacity. That smaller size works better for shorter range planes, and the A300F and 767Fs are already out there.
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sabenapilot
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 20):
If Airbus goes with an enhanced A345/A346, Boeing will counter with improvements to the B772LR/B773ER and Airbus will end up exactly where they are today having spent several billion euros in the process.

I am afraid you are too convinced by the inherent superiority of the 777 and are underestimating the strenght of an attack on your beloved Boeing type on its weakest spot, namely its ENGINES.

As a QUAD, the A340 requires 4 medium class engines rather than 2 extremely powerful engines, so Airbus has recently seen the possibility to fit its plane with a new derivate of the upcoming extremely efficient and brand new Trent 1000/1700 (for the A350/787) to be known as Trent 1500.

The 777 however requires engines in the 90,000+ lbs category and there isn't really ample choice of new efficient engines here. Moreover, all engine manufacturers currently occupied with the design and completion of a new generation of engines for the A350/787 are planning their next move in the much more important and profitable category of 737/A320 engines, rather than in the niche segment of the 100,000lbs engines, so it doesn't look as if there will be a spectacularly improved 777 engine anytime soon either.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 20):
The problem for Airbus is weight. They cannot make the A345/A346 airframe lighter than the B772LR/B773ER by "enhancing" it.

Since the A340-600Enhanced will burn less fuel than the 777 on similar mission profiles, its fuel capacity can/will be reduced considerably from what it is now thus the wings can be lighted somewhat and although its reduced EOW would still not be better to that of the 777, its fuel efficienty finally would. In short: Airbus might not have been able to solve its weight problem by enhancing the A340-600, but they seem to have been given tools to work around it this time; all this at an amasingly small cost!!!

I agree the A340-600Enhanced would certainly not be the most efficient plane possible, but it would very likely be the most efficient plane available in its category.

Boeing's only way of countering the A340-600Enhanced would be through increasing the EOW advantage its 777 has over the A340 to offset the higher TSFC through incredibly expensive structural changes to the wings, the fuselage and other way too heavy metal structures of the 777, a method which would contribute little to reducing the already wide gap in costprice between the 777 and the A340-600...

[Edited 2005-11-29 17:16:05]

[Edited 2005-11-29 17:17:23]
 
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Revelation
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:06 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 23):
Airbus WON'T spend several billion Euros on the A346E!

I guess the operative word is "several". In my book, it doesn't take many billions to get to "several", but of course, that may be different in your mind. Also it seems Rolls would be the one taking the biggest financial hit. I know the triple spool design makes it easier to resize the engine to the market, but still, each variant has tons of design and test work before it can be certified to fly.

In any case, why don't you share your estimate with us? May I suggest donning your tin helmet and your flak jacket first?
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
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JetMaster
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:08 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
But 6-7% of 8-9% is only 0.5%! Journalists!

But not all journalists are same, right?


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
sabenapilot
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:14 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 26):
Which is why the best solution for Airbus would be to "A350" the A340 by offering a 346 length A350 with 8000nm range, with the A350 wings and with 2 engines, not 4. My guess is they are just waiting on the right engines to make this a reality.

Those engines would be a very nice upgrade for 772ER operators.

Indeed, however, expect B to be the last one pushing any engine manufacturer to come up with such an product for their 772ER, because it would give wings to the A350-1000 which has a much lower EOW than its competitor.... I am sure B understands the importance of being LIGHTER (777vs A340)....

Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
But 6-7% of 8-9% is only 0.5%! Journalists!

Good one, really! I hope you ment this as a joke... although I am not so sure.
 
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:16 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 36):
But not all journalists are same, right?

No, all journalists are not the same. Sorry, but I'm missing your point.
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 34):
The 777 however requires engines in the 90,000+ lbs category and there isn't really ample choice of new efficient engines here.

Come now. You think the state of the art will stagnate in the GE90 class engine while advancing in all others to the point that by 2011, the GE90 can't be improved?

Doesn't seem to explain the present situation. The current A346 and current 773ER both use current state of the art engines, yet the 773ER is more efficient.

Why would this change in 5 years, all else being equal?

Put your bias aside for once. 4 engines are less efficient for the same mission lifting the same payload if you compare it to a competing 2 engined craft if all use the latest technology available.
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 35):
In any case, why don't you share your estimate with us?

A recertification program of an exisiting plane with new engines could cost anything from 200 to 400 million dollars...

Not really SEVERAL BILLIONS, does it???

Okay, the A340-600Enhanced would also feature improved wing features and aluminium-litium fuselage, but since the later is identical to the A350 fuselage cross section, would not cost them a cent!

I would be stunned if it would come close to even ONE billion.
 
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:29 am

It amuses me to no end that the Airbus fans here are putting all their hopes on a proposed derivative due in 2011 that may have a marginal advantage on an aircraft that is available NOW.
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:33 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 35):
In any case, why don't you share your estimate with us? May I suggest donning your tin helmet and your flak jacket first?

It won't be me donning the tin helmet + flak jacket, Revelation.
Much more significant changes to the 744 to create the 748 are widely touted on here as being $1.5Bn.
This plane has BRAND NEW wings (see my post on my thread "Airbus A350 the A340 part 2" for details + source(Jeff Peace, exec VP of 747 programme)), new undercarriage, is a bigger plane (with stretches), a bigger MTOW, new avionics, and completely new engines of a completely larger size. All of the static and dynamic forces will have changed, on both the frame and the wings.

The A345/6E is the same size, same MTOW, same wing, same sized engines (and nacelle), same undercarriage, same avionics, same dynamic forces on structure + wing.
What it does have is a new core to its same size/weight engine, and a same structure fuselage made out of a different specification (and slightly lighter) aluminium than today. The structure as such hasn't changed. That's it.

Have it whichever way you want. If the 748 is only a $1.5bn programme, then A345/6E is c $500m tops.
If A345/6E is a $ multi-billion programme, then the 748 will cost Boeing more than the $8Bn published for the 787 programme.
You choose. I don't mind which, but let's at least have some consistency.

Want to borrow a tin hat + flak jacket?  Smile
A
 
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:41 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 42):
Want to borrow a tin hat + flak jacket?

Nope, with Sabenapilot aiming and you firing, I just took an 88mm hit to the chest, so it won't help! I have to agree, it seems to be a lot less than "several" billion, more likely in the 0.5 - 1.5 B range. It gives one pause to think of how much work had to happen on A380 for it to consume "several" billions, though. That's not being critical of A380, it's just pointing out how huge a project it is.
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 32):
I am afraid you are too convinced by the inherent superiority of the 777 and are underestimating the strenght of an attack on your beloved Boeing type on its weakest spot, namely its ENGINES.

As apparently are actual purchasers of aircraft in this class who are willing to pay a premium for the B777 when faced with the decision of where to spend $100 million +.
 
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:08 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 41):
Nope, with Sabenapilot aiming and you firing, I just took an 88mm hit to the chest, so it won't help! I have to agree, it seems to be a lot less than "several" billion, more likely in the 0.5 - 1.5 B range. It gives one pause to think of how much work had to happen on A380 for it to consume "several" billions, though. That's not being critical of A380, it's just pointing out how huge a project it is.

Thanks Revelation. I can live with $1Bn - $1.5bn for the A345/6E because I believe the 748 to be nearer $3.5Bn - $4Bn.
If it helps, speaking as an Airbus fan, I'm still content to call the 748 a better business decision, even at $4Bn, because of its unique positioning between the 773 and A380.

I don't think Aibus can spare the resources to do the proper job, though, so this has to be their interim approach - like it or not.
A
 
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:20 am

N79969-

Its not like the A340-600Enhanced has been offered to any of the newest 777 customers!
At present the plane is nothing more than a speadsheet which has been forwarded to different Airbus design teams to verify the initial results of this A340-600Enhanced study as well as the feasibility of this re-engining program; nothing more than some really encouraging results from doing the math of basically putting the A340 wing on the A350 fuselage and fitting this plane with the future Trend 1700 as well as the GEnx.

If it materializes, quite a few ironic thoughts should come to your mind:

-) The A340 will be reborn thanks to it having 4 engines, who would have thought!?

-) Those 2 huge, strong and mighty engines of the 777 will all of a sudden start to look as a clear visualization of what the weakness of this design is. If only they would have been smaller and less powerful, then they might be replaced by versions of the much more efficient modern engines....

-) Even Leahy will not have known just how prophetic his words were when he said all it would take Airbus would be to put those engines of the 787 on one of his planes (although not the A330 like he then ment) for airbus to react destructively.

[Edited 2005-11-29 18:32:39]
 
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:29 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 37):
Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 34):
The 777 however requires engines in the 90,000+ lbs category and there isn't really ample choice of new efficient engines here.

Come now. You think the state of the art will stagnate in the GE90 class engine while advancing in all others to the point that by 2011, the GE90 can't be improved?

It can certainly be improved, but it will not incorporate much of the newly developed technologic improvement, simply because it would require too much work, time and money to make them work with the other components of this massive engine.... Expect small easy and relatively cheap changes to the GE90 every year or so, but don't expect anything from the sort of a brand new designer engine a la Trend1500 which is in fact a hybrid from the current Trend500 fan section, the Trend 1000 combustion section with an all new turbine section...

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 43):
Thanks Revelation. I can live with $1Bn - $1.5bn for the A345/6E

i would say that is certainly on the high end, half of it would be coming closer to reality and even so, don't forget that the most important change to the A345-6 is the change of engines... expect RR to cover a big chunk of the total bill.

edited for typo: is the spell checker down, it doesn't seem to load for me...

[Edited 2005-11-29 18:34:31]
 
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 45):
It can certainly be improved, but it will not incorporate much of the newly developed technologic improvement, simply because it would require too much work, time and money to make them work with the other components of this massive engine.... Expect small easy and relatively cheap changes to the GE90 every year or so, but don't expect anything from the sort of a brand new designer engine a la Trend1500 which is in fact a hybrid from the current Trend500 fan section, the Trend 1000 combustion section with an all new turbine section...

I'm still not following your logic again. How exactly can R-R bring Trent 1x00 improvements to the Trent 500 and GE can't make the same changes to the GE90? I'm looking for real reasons, rather than conjecture such as "expect such and such" which are little more than disguised WAGs.
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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:40 am

I love how everyone thinks that the GE90's are the weakest link of the 777. Maybe Boeing should take the 777 and make it a 4-engine plane  Yeah sure

Boeing keeps updating the 777 in various forms, always keeping ahead of the A340. Once again, I don't think that the A340 has a chance with 4 engines.

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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:41 am

Boeing also enhanced their 773ER to improve overall fuel efficiency by 1.4 percent. This amount is in addition to the 2 percent fuel-burn improvement already proven in revenue service. A 1.4 percent improvement in fuel efficiency equates to an annual jet-fuel savings of approximately 200,000 gallons (757,000 liters).

The 1.4 percent additional improvement in fuel efficiency was brought about by a number of factors:

- GE Aircraft Engines modified its powerful GE90-115B engines.

- Boeing engineers reduced the airplane's drag by modifying the airplane's vortex generators and its air induction systems for the environmental control systems.

- Engineers also incorporated several weight-reduction improvements to the airplane's internal structure, including lighter weight environmental control-system ducts and main-deck floor panels.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q4/nr_051129g.html

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RE: A340 Enhanced To Take On 773ER/772LR

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:41 am

Sabenapilot,

As far as WAGs go, your WAGs are not bad but not that good either. I think the limb that you are sitting on is pretty much touching the ground now.

I think history shows that Airbus and Boeing do all they can to deprive the other of orders and thus revenue. So my less than-wild-ass-guess makes me think that Airbus pulled out all the stops in trying to prevent the avalanche of 773ER orders that have come as of late. I would be extremely surprised if Airbus did not show customers, at least in concept, ways that the 346 will be improved and be a better value than the Boeing. I think important customers probably heard about this before Flight International.