jumbojet
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Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:49 am

Here are some highlights, or lowlights, from yesterday's court hearings between Delta and DALPA.

U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Prudence Beatty said. "One can talk about union busting and that is precisely what this kind of motion has the taint of. ..."

"Frankly, I think you have a bias here," she told Gallagher (Delta lawyer). "It's a personal bias against the pilots."

Under questioning from Simon,(DALPA's Lawyer) Bastian (Delta's CFO) also acknowledged that the Atlanta-based carrier does not have a contingency plan in place in case of a strike, which the pilots have threatened if the court throws out their contract"

OK, why not have a contingency plan ready in case of a strike? Why can't they have retired pilots ready to take over? Get them their medicals now and any other training that they may need out of the way and hence, you have a contingency plan. Who is this guy Bastian, and why doesnt he have a contingency plan?

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2005-11-29-delta-union_x.htm
 
positiverate
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:52 am

Quoting JumboJet (Thread starter):
OK, why not have a contingency plan ready in case of a strike? Why can't they have retired pilots ready to take over? Get them their medicals now and any other training that they may need out of the way and hence, you have a contingency plan. Who is this guy Bastian, and why doesnt he have a contingency plan?

They have a contingency plan: it is called liquidation.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:01 am

Quoting JumboJet (Thread starter):
Why can't they have retired pilots ready to take over? Get them their medicals now and any other training that they may need out of the way and hence, you have a contingency plan.

The FAA requires pilots to retire at 60yrs. How many retired pilots do you think there are under 60 that would be eligible to be hired?
 
Sinlock
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:07 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 2):
The FAA requires pilots to retire at 60yrs. How many retired pilots do you think there are under 60 that would be eligible to be hired?

Or willing to come back as a short term SCAB. (Not to mention that their pention is likely next to be choped)
 
LAXintl
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:12 am

The judge in this case is turning out to be a true character. I ran across the following paraphrase exerpts of the hearings last week off airline pilot central web site. The banter is betwen the judge and Delta's counsel.



*****************

Upon numerous mentions of pay/benefit levels at other bankrupt airlines:


"I don't care what other airlines have done. No one else's finances
are the same as yours. I don't care what others pay. Delta will pay
what it can afford to pay."

*****************

Upon mention of "management flexibility in small a/c (scope relief)


"Scope relief .... in other words, get rid of Delta pilots. I know
what you want to do."

*****************

Upon mention that certain changes would make the company stronger:

"You spent 2.5 Billion buying back your own stock"

But your honor, that was before Sept 11:

"It was still a real money loser."

******************

The Judge said, "An across the board pay cut (like the one proposed)
is particularly unfair to the lowest paid pilots."

But all the other 44,000 employees took a pay cut .....

(interrupting him) "I don't find that persuasive. All those folks
can move to another job. Pilots cannot. They have one skill set and
are stuck with you."

Not necessarily, your honor.

"Well, you fired 6000 a few years ago and they are not lined up
outside your door are they?"

******************

"I don't understand why Delta is throwing darts at its pilots.
You think they are smaller than you, so you can stomp them."

*****************
Upon yet another mention of other airline pay, and of a DL witness who
will testify that, based upon market economics, many other professions
should be paid more than pilots (optometrists, pharmacists, judges,
lawyers)

"You keep telling me about other airlines and other pay. Your expert's
list is meaningless to me."

******************

Gallagher attempts to read excerpt from Duane Woerth spring speech to
show that ALPA is unnecessarily militant and coordinated in fighting
management.

(interrupting him) "So what? You carry a big stick. Let them carry
a big stick. Besides, I don't even know that DL pilots listened to that
letter."

*****************

The judge repeatedly brought up, and would not let go of, the fact that
DL included 6 or so "non-negotiable" items that must be in any final
agreement. These included relief in scope, code share restrictions,
minimum block hours, etc. She first asked where the dollar value of
such items was to be found.

Your honor, these are not cost issues, they are intended to strengthen
our company. They can't be quantified.

"(shouting) Don't tell me these aren't economic items. You better
figure out how to quantify them. This is $ that will come from the pilots'
side of the ledger. "

"If you code share on AF from JFK to Paris, that is taking money
out of DL pilots' pockets."

"If you reduce required minimum block hours, you are taking money
from DL pilots."

"If you remove restrictions on small jets, you are taking money
from DL pilots. Why can't DL pilots fly these 79 seat jets? "

Your honor, that would not be economically feasible in view of their
benefits package.

(shouting him down) "You see? Its money. These are certainly economic
issues."

Jack makes one last attempt to make his point: your honor, these items
are to strengthen the company, and the pilots will have more security
in a stronger company.

"Don't tell me this is to strengthen DL. A stronger DL means DL
gets more money .... and the pilots will get credit for that."

**************
As part of the discussion of these items, the judge did suggest that
one could be non-economic .... the "poison pill" clause in the PWA that
gives ALPA the right to extend or take a pay raise in the event of a
change in control. Attorney explained that an issuance of new stock
upon emergence from Chapt 11 could equate to a change in control and
trigger this provision.

The judge suggests that the parties simply add language exempting such
stock issuance from the items that might trigger the clause, as UsAirways
did. Then you could leave the rest of the language alone.

Your honor, that is a fine suggestion and certainly something that Delta
is willing to consider in negotiations.

Whereupon, the ALPA lead attorney, Bruce Simon, stood and announced,
"Your honor, ALPA has recently made that exact proposal and it has been
rejected by the company".

Much shuffling of feet on the Delta side of the room.

**************

DL attorney led CFO Bastian through recitation of finances to illustrate
how desperately DL needed the full $335M from the pilots. Bastian maintained
that ALPA's analysis that DL had not yet taken full advantage of the
Letter 46 was flawed .... because "the airline is smaller now, and we
cannot save all that was intended in that section of Letter 46.

"They gave you the money. Its not the pilots' fault that DL just
didn't spend it. The pilots will get credit for that money."

**************

Finally, the last note made prior to recess:

Your honor, DL must have the total amount we are seeking ....

"Well, I am not at all sure such an amount is appropriate in light
of the billion dollars the pilots have already given you."
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Jeff G
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 2):
How many retired pilots do you think there are under 60 that would be eligible to be hired?

More importantly, how many qualified pilots (retired or not) do you think there are who are willing to cross a picket line en masse to keep the airline operating? Even if they were out there, you'd have to train them, thousands of them, tens of thousands of dollars apiece, and have them waiting in the wings to take over in case the Delta pilots strike. Leaving aside the fact that they'd be marked for life just for training as scabs, they couldn't be guaranteed jobs unless the pilots struck. And then they would still expect to be paid to wait around. How much would that cost Delta? Care to justify that in bankruptcy?
 
ikramerica
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:28 am

Sounds like this judge is going to bring DL down. She is quite confrontational and seems to be just a tad pro-union. Which is not to say she should be a lap dog and anti-union. Just unbiased.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
panamair
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:39 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
Sounds like this judge is going to bring DL down. She is quite confrontational and seems to be just a tad pro-union. Which is not to say she should be a lap dog and anti-union. Just unbiased.

I think she's bending over backwards to be tough on DL right now because she had been accused by the DALPA lawyers before the start of the hearing of being biased against the pilots ("...what's even weirder is someone agreeing to pay them (the pilots) this much..." was her comment); the DALPA lawyers had asked her to recuse herself from the case because of this perceived bias...so now she's going to the other extreme....in any case, she certainly comes across as a wacko ("Do you serve peanuts? I really think you shouldn't...my daughter is allergic to them...")

At least the $605 million non-pilot cost cuts are already in place (as of Nov1) and jet fuel price has been hovering at around $1.75 a gallon, which is below DL's projection of $2.01 a gallon for the rest of 2005.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:42 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
She is quite confrontational and seems to be just a tad pro-union. Which is not to say she should be a lap dog and anti-union. Just unbiased.

It sounds more like she's irritated by a company attempting to use legal maneuvering via Chapter 11 to circumvent the process of negotiating with your unionized employees.

In short, she's pissed that DL is trying to be cute and take the quick easy way out rather than working with the pilots.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:44 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
Sounds like this judge is going to bring DL down. She is quite confrontational and seems to be just a tad pro-union. Which is not to say she should be a lap dog and anti-union. Just unbiased.

Agreed. If I were Gerald Grinstein, I'd be asking that Judge Beatty be thrown out of this case with cause (I forget the actual term), as it is fairly obvious that she has bias that is clouding her judgement.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
supa7E7
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:46 am

These quotes are nuts.... shocking! It seems the judge wants union glory to trump the future of Delta.

Management by consensus is a crazy idea. Even Buddhist monks don't do that. At DL, the boss's job is to protect the investors. THAT is why Delta bought its own stock back. To help i n v e s t o r s who sunk their money INTO Delta rather than sucking money OUT they way DL pilots did for years and years.

I would feel more sorry for 99% of the world's people than the Delta pilots, who have gotten quite rich over the years thanks to union power. In fact, they may be the world's richest union members. Why cry for them?

If investors want to buy back 2.5 billion in stock and sink the company, it is their right to do so because -- oh gee -- they OWN the joint. This judge needs to come to America and leave 1950s Russia behind.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
Tornado82
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:47 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
She is quite confrontational and seems to be just a tad pro-union.

That goes down as the biggest understatement on A.net.
 
positiverate
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:48 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 9):
Agreed. If I were Gerald Grinstein, I'd be asking that Judge Beatty be thrown out of this case with cause (I forget the actual term), as it is fairly obvious that she has bias that is clouding her judgement.

Funny...ALPA made the same motion because they felt she was biased towards the company a few weeks ago.
 
jumbojet
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:49 am

Admittingly, I dont know nearly enough about the industry as most of you out there, but, if NW can put together a plan regarding the MX issue, and make it work, why not Delta with their pilot issue? Their CFO, Bastian, they give the impression that they aren't even trying to put together a plan. Surely, there has to be something, anything that DL can fall back on in case of a pilot strike.

Also, jet fuel has gone down 4 cents since Katrina. dALPA arues that that means there is already roughly a 100M a year savings.
 
positiverate
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:51 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 10):
These quotes are nuts.... shocking! It seems the judge wants union glory to trump the future of Delta.

You all are missing the anti-pilots comments she made some weeks back. At one point she looked at some pilots in the audience and said "the only people in this courtroom that are overpaid are me and those pilots."
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:51 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 12):
ALPA made the same motion because they felt she was biased towards the company a few weeks ago.

Because they misread that "I can't believe that they would pay the pilots that much!" as "I can't believe the pilots are being paid that much..." She was not bashing the pilots for being paid that much, after all, they work to make money. She was, however, blasting management for paying them every last dollar the pilots demanded.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
panamair
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:57 am

Quoting JumboJet (Reply 13):
Surely, there has to be something, anything that DL can fall back on in case of a pilot strike.

The way things are going, she will probably order the parties back to the negotiating table so the chances of a strike would be slim..,.thank goodness.

Quoting JumboJet (Reply 13):
Also, jet fuel has gone down 4 cents since Katrina. dALPA arues that that means there is already roughly a 100M a year savings.

Actually, jet fuel has gone down significantly since Katrina (from a peak of about $2.40 a gallon to the current $1.76 or so). DL's plan projects that fuel will be at $2.01 a gallon for the rest of 2005 (so they are 'ahead' of plan there on the fuel front currently) and fall to $1.73 a gallon in 2006 and 2007. DALPA's comparison of the 4 cent drop concerns the 2006 projections (DL projects $1.73 whereas 'experts' predict $1.69).

But if DL followed the same course as what DALPA is suggesting (i.e., no need for at least $100 m of savings because fuel has dropped $0.04), they will be in trouble again and be accused by the pilots and others of not planning properly if fuel goes back up again next year! You know the same arguments will appear...."They told us that was the last time they would ask for concessions...." or "Management didn't do its job right, how could they possibly have planned for such unrealistic low fuel prices?"
 
supa7E7
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:59 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 14):



Quoting Positiverate (Reply 14):
You all are missing the anti-pilots comments she made some weeks back. At one point she looked at some pilots in the audience and said "the only people in this courtroom that are overpaid are me and those pilots."

Hahahaha.... good stuff.

Maybe there is more to this judge than meets the eye.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:00 am

Quoting JumboJet (Reply 13):
Their CFO, Bastian, they give the impression that they aren't even trying to put together a plan. Surely, there has to be something, anything that DL can fall back on in case of a pilot strike.

Replacing pilots is far more complex than replacing mechanics. At most DL might be able to round up and train 1,000 to 2,000 pilots, but that's not nearly enough to make DL run. Not to mention that spending money on hiring scabs would certainly not be considered good-faith bargaining with DALPA. In fact, I would venture that if DL tried to pull a stunt like NW that DALPA would become even more difficult and concessions would be even harder to obtain.

Some of DL's demands are certainly bordering on union-busting. And you have to admit that it is pretty pathetic that DL managment CAN NOT and WILL NOT quantify the financial gains of having more 79 seaters at DCI. It's also a little odd that the only major union is being asked to take cuts that will carry them to the JetBlue level, while most of the non-union employees are above the JetBlue levels.
 
positiverate
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 15):
Because they misread that "I can't believe that they would pay the pilots that much!" as "I can't believe the pilots are being paid that much..." She was not bashing the pilots for being paid that much, after all, they work to make money. She was, however, blasting management for paying them every last dollar the pilots demanded.

Still, they made the motion and never retracted it as far as I know.

Delta Bankruptcy Judge Denies Bias
November 16, 2005
The judge overseeing Delta Air Lines' bankruptcy case on Wednesday rejected a request by the union representing its pilots that she disqualify herself from ruling on their salaries.

US Bankruptcy Judge Prudence Beatty said that any negative comments she had made in past hearings about pilot pay had referred only to lump sum payments under their pension plan and not their regular salaries.

"I do not believe that I have a bias against the pilots," she said. "I believe that what I have done is attempt to learn more about how the system works."

She also denied suggesting in previous hearings that any of the airline's pilots were drunk or that the amount of their regular pay was "weird."

The motion to remove the judge came at the beginning of a hearing at which the judge was due to rule on Delta's request that she clear its plan to cut their salaries by about a fifth.

"When the court asks to know just how rich pilots can get, her impartiality can be questioned," Bruce Simon, a lawyer for the union said earlier, citing comments she had made about pilots' pay as well as talk about the pilots at hearings where their lawyers were not present.

(Reuters)


Also, another great story about her unpredictability: http://biz.yahoo.com/law/051010/c6f1...f1927a30e9bcc6549d8a3e.html?.v%3D1
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:02 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 4):
The judge in this case is turning out to be a true character. I ran across the following paraphrase exerpts of the hearings last week off airline pilot central web site. The banter is betwen the judge and Delta's counsel.

And it sounds like Delta's counsel, in true legacy airline character, is reacting like the proverbial deer caught in the headlights when someone, a judge no less, finally stands up to their flashy but totally empty rhetoric and challenges their strawman arguments. It's about time that legacy airlines assuming they can sweep the consequences of years of management blunders (most of which, BTW, predate 9/11/01) under the proverbial rug by raping labor, with complicity of bankruptcy judges, find themselves having to give more substantive answers than the "just because we say so" responses Delta's counsel appears to think they could get away with, ala UA, US and NW. The more they (DL and their legacy airline cohorts) are forced to give subtantive, truthful answers to the issue of what ails them, the more the real causes of their malaise will be exposed, more than 90% of which emanate from the executive suites.
 
jumbojet
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:02 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 16):
The way things are going, she will probably order the parties back to the negotiating table so the chances of a strike would be slim..,.thank goodness.

Well, how many times is this going to happen? Delta is only bleeding roughly 5M a day. Something has to give sooner or later.

Bastian, who is the CFO for Delta, says that he believes there is still the chance that an out of court settlement can be reached. I would bet my money on this. If there was absolutely no chance of this happening, then I think Bastian would say so.
 
positiverate
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 17):
Hahahaha.... good stuff.

Maybe there is more to this judge than meets the eye.

She's a handfull. Among some other things she said:

*She called Delta's pilots pay "hideously high." She said the only "good thing" about pilots is they must retire at 60.

*During testimony about Delta's high fuel costs, she suggested putting "solar panels on the tops of jets" to generate power.

*She asked Bastian if Delta serves peanuts, bevause her duaghter is allergic.

*When DL's lawyers were describing new airline technology that could reduce staffing, she started in on the check-in kiosks. "They print out your little piece of paper and you try not to crumble it up because the piece of paper is pretty thin. You never have to stand in line and wait for some lady behind the counter who doesn't know what she's doing to look at your ticket."
 
positiverate
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:08 am

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 20):
And it sounds like Delta's counsel, in true legacy airline character, is reacting like the proverbial deer caught in the headlights when someone, a judge no less, finally stands up to their flashy but totally empty rhetoric and challenges their strawman arguments. It's about time that legacy airlines assuming they can sweep the consequences of years of management blunders (most of which, BTW, predate 9/11/01) under the proverbial rug by raping labor, with complicity of bankruptcy judges, find themselves having to give more substantive answers than the "just because we say so" responses Delta's counsel appears to think they could get away with, ala UA, US and NW. The more they (DL and their legacy airline cohorts) are forced to give subtantive, truthful answers to the issue of what ails them, the more the real causes of their malaise will be exposed, more than 90% of which emanate from the executive suites.

Wow...bitter?
 
Cadet57
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:18 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 22):
*She called Delta's pilots pay "hideously high." She said the only "good thing" about pilots is they must retire at 60.

 roll 

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 22):
*During testimony about Delta's high fuel costs, she suggested putting "solar panels on the tops of jets" to generate power.

I thought judges were educated people?

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 22):
*She asked Bastian if Delta serves peanuts, bevause her duaghter is allergic.

Big deal, just because her daughter is alergic so what. Does that mean if DL gets rid of peanuts, she'll rule in their favor? I think peanuts suck, but im not not gonna fly DL just beacause of that.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 22):
*When DL's lawyers were describing new airline technology that could reduce staffing, she started in on the check-in kiosks. "They print out your little piece of paper and you try not to crumble it up because the piece of paper is pretty thin. You never have to stand in line and wait for some lady behind the counter who doesn't know what she's doing to look at your ticket."

Ya? No kidding.... yes a peice of paper with your BOARDING PASS is such a delicate peice of paper that god forbid, the walk between check in and security, whats that 100 ft, at best?, you loose it. And im sure DL mgmt appreciates the discription of their hard working csa's....

This woman is a brainless fool. Get her off the bench, NOW!
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
jumbojet
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 24):
This woman is a brainless fool. Get her off the bench, NOW!

Somehow I was coming to that conclusion myself. Seems that she has to much of he own opinions to voice rather then try and do her real job.
 
Lemurs
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:44 am

I am truly amused. The best judges in this country refuse to be double-talked into giving up on the facts. Her calling out Delta for trying to claim their "required concessions" were not about money is a perfect example in point. Can anyone here stand up and truly argue it's not about money?

Only the most arrogant attorneys will stand up and try to snow a professional judge in that fashion, and most who try it will get humiliated in that fashion, AS THEY SHOULD.

Note: I am not pro-union on this, and I am not pro-Delta either. I think both sides are screwing themselves, and BRAVO to the judge for not playing their game. You need to sit down, bring real numbers, and say the reason you are taking the action you are taking. No BS.

As for you claiming to know better than her based on EXCERPTS of TRANSCRIPTS, I will take a moment to laugh in your face. Of the many things A.net is, one of them is not being a place where people who are truly informed about legal issues hang out. Please keep your ignorance to yourselves lest you look foolish.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
commavia
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 7):
I think she's bending over backwards to be tough on DL right now because she had been accused by the DALPA lawyers before the start of the hearing of being biased against the pilots

I agree with you. While I am not suggesting that it will impact her ultimate rulings on key, sensitive issues, I do think that this new slant against Delta's management is a good deal of posturing after DALPA complained that she had a slant against them. She doesn't want to recuse herself, so as to lose jurisdiction over such a high-profile case, and thus she has to give the apperance of being pro-union.
 
HunUtazo
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:58 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
seems to be just a tad pro-union

....you're looking at the future, after this administration is out.
dude
 
slider
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting JumboJet (Thread starter):
"Frankly, I think you have a bias here," she told Gallagher (Delta lawyer). "It's a personal bias against the pilots."



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 4):
"Scope relief .... in other words, get rid of Delta pilots. I know
what you want to do."



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 4):
The Judge said, "An across the board pay cut (like the one proposed)
is particularly unfair to the lowest paid pilots."



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 4):
(interrupting him) "So what? You carry a big stick. Let them carry
a big stick. Besides, I don't even know that DL pilots listened to that
letter."



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 4):
"(shouting) Don't tell me these aren't economic items. You better
figure out how to quantify them. This is $ that will come from the pilots'
side of the ledger. "

"If you code share on AF from JFK to Paris, that is taking money
out of DL pilots' pockets."

"If you reduce required minimum block hours, you are taking money
from DL pilots."

"If you remove restrictions on small jets, you are taking money
from DL pilots. Why can't DL pilots fly these 79 seat jets? "

Based on these excerpts, I'd push to get her bumped off this case.

She is not the star of the show- her personality, non sequiturs and snide comments aren't the reason for her being there and it's disrespectful as hell that her personality is the focal point instead of economics.

This lady sounds like a megalomaniac.
 
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:20 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
Sounds like this judge is going to bring DL down. She is quite confrontational and seems to be just a tad pro-union. Which is not to say she should be a lap dog and anti-union. Just unbiased.

I re-read her quotes and while she is colorful, she also is asking very good questions. What really matters is that she understands the law and applies it correctly. Using bankrupcy to wipe out union contracts has been illegal since the days of Ichan.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 12):
Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 9):
Agreed. If I were Gerald Grinstein, I'd be asking that Judge Beatty be thrown out of this case with cause (I forget the actual term), as it is fairly obvious that she has bias that is clouding her judgement.

Funny...ALPA made the same motion because they felt she was biased towards the company a few weeks ago.

Hmm, maybe ol' Pru is intentionally getting both sides to think she is irrational so they go off and settle it amongst themselves...

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 14):
You all are missing the anti-pilots comments she made some weeks back. At one point she looked at some pilots in the audience and said "the only people in this courtroom that are overpaid are me and those pilots."

How did she forget to include the lawyers in this comment too!  Smile
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CLEfan
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:25 am

One thing Judges tend to do during oral arguments is to question and attack the attorney's position. The judge trys to get past the facade of what the attorney is saying and get to the meat of the matter and center on the true dispute. Often, this produces alternative arguments and the judge can see the true colors of both sides. Frequently, the judges ask questions from the opposite viewpoint of the attorney. In many ways, its like playing the role of a devils advocate. A great example of this in with the Supreme Court. Read some of the transcripts, and you will see that some of the Justices take different positions in questioning to both arguing attorneys. In my view, this is what she is doing here. Two weeks ago, she was hard on the pilots, trying to see what their true issues were and thoroughly questioning them. Now, the spotlight turned onto Delta, and they had to face the same round of questioning. This isnt trying to show favorites, its a judge doing her job and asking the hard questions so she could give a fair ruling.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 24):
*During testimony about Delta's high fuel costs, she suggested putting "solar panels on the tops of jets" to generate power.

I thought judges were educated people?



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 24):
This woman is a brainless fool. Get her off the bench, NOW!

Shes a bankruptcy Judge, not an aviation enthusiest. Also, this could have been said as a joke. While the Justice System is a serious place, it does not mean the occasional joke or laugh is not permitted.
 
Lemurs
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:29 am

Oh, and if you think she's just being crazy, sit down with your average Supreme Court transcripts. These are some of the brightest people in this country, and they often carry the same tone. None will put up with double-speak, or arguments that do not address the law or are internally inconsistent. Rhenquist and Scalia in particular regularly reduce(d) unprepared and duplicitious lawyers to rubble during oral presentations and questions.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
phollingsworth
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:32 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 16):
Actually, jet fuel has gone down significantly since Katrina (from a peak of about $2.40 a gallon to the current $1.76 or so). DL's plan projects that fuel will be at $2.01 a gallon for the rest of 2005 (so they are 'ahead' of plan there on the fuel front currently) and fall to $1.73 a gallon in 2006 and 2007. DALPA's comparison of the 4 cent drop concerns the 2006 projections (DL projects $1.73 whereas 'experts' predict $1.69).

Spot market prices for the US Gulf Coast region, which ATL and a lot of DL purchases fall into, peaked at $3.13 on Oct 5. As of Nov 22 they were down to $1.68. They have been below $2.00 since Oct 20. The prices have been ion the mid $1.6 to $1.7 range for the past few weeks.

Quoting Slider (Reply 29):
Based on these excerpts, I'd push to get her bumped off this case.

She is not the star of the show- her personality, non sequiturs and snide comments aren't the reason for her being there and it's disrespectful as hell that her personality is the focal point instead of economics.

This lady sounds like a megalomaniac.

You don't deal with Federal judges much. This is actually pretty tame. The questions a poignant, she is trying to make DL and ALPA justify their position under the law, and is appropriately challenging there justifications and logic. This is a sign of a healthy adversarial process. Remember, under the law she really represents the creditors.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 24):
This woman is a brainless fool. Get her off the bench, NOW!

I sure hope you never have to appear in front of this judge. Your opponents could give you a bad case of the hurts by quoting this.
 
LongbowPilot
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:57 am

I"m tired of all these "lets bash delta threads." you all got anything else to do in life? Pick on Southwest or something.

Sheesh.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:10 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
It's also a little odd that the only major union is being asked to take cuts that will carry them to the JetBlue level, while most of the non-union employees are above the JetBlue levels.

Ah yes, ignorance rears its ugly head again. Please show me how the non-union employees are paid above Jetblue level? I'm dying to see this. Please post something that shows me that after 20% paycuts, loss of half vacation pay, paying half of what was once free health benefits and having the rest of my benefits sliced and diced over 4 years, please show me PROOF where non-union employee's are paid above Jetblue level. Remember, I don't want YOUR analysis, nor do I want you to tell me what YOU think, I want cold, hard, up to date proof that any Delta employee is paid more than Jetblue wages.


Apparently a lot of people do not understand the deal between Delta and its retired pilots. Delta had a couple hundred senior pilots take an early retirement last year. Many of these pilots took an early out to avoid pension problems if DL went BK. So most of them are not 60, and there are some that are just over 50, although, for the most part, the average age is 53. DL offered them the chance to keep flying until the new crews were brought up to speed, something that could take a couple years with the amount of new flying and new crews needed. What pilot wouldn't want to keep flying after retirement and many did so. It has worked out so well that DL would like to extend it another year, but ALPA doesn't think so. ALPA feels that DL is neglecting its dues-paying members while getting folks to fly that are (no longer) active DL employees, thereby restricting DL pilots chance to upgrade, even though that is exactly the point of the plan is accomplishing. If I'm not mistaken, the retired pilot agreement is good until the first of the year, so chances are, a Captain flying your flight, may already be retired.


I agree this judge is trying to turn this into some court room mockery. Apparently, I think she thinks Judge Judy is about to retire and wants that TV slot. Too bad most people don't care about watching bankruptcy court on TV. However, this would be interesting to watch, I knew I should have taken some time off when I had the chance.


OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
MD88Captain
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:33 am

The post-retirement pilots are only in a few categories and are in their last month of flying. The agreement is over on 1 Jan. The number of these guys was never over 200 and is much less now. The company (typical) took advantage of the agreement and has not trained the required pilots required to make up the shortfall in early retirements. Now that they have realized that the pilots will not extend the agreement they are trying to cover the shortfall. Any day you can go to the simulator and see empty boxes or (even worse) see other airlines renting our simulators while DAL management says "we are at training capacity and cannot train any faster."
 
m404
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:04 am

I wonder if this Judge's comments will affect how NW approachs theirs when they try to make the same points in the IAM contracts. For that matter, I'd bet that the NW judge is certainly listening to this for precedents.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
Kahala777
Posts: 1513
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:24 am

Some of the people on this forum never cease to amaze.

Many on this forum are mad when the judges say to little.
Many on this forum are mad when judges say to much.

Many on this forum are mad when airlines get away with pension robbing.
Many on this forum are mad when pensions arent robbed.

Many on this forum are mad when airlines dont repaint.
Many on this forum are mad when airlines repaint.

Many on this forum are mad when airlines pull routes.
Many on this forum are mad when airlines done pull routes.

Many on this forum are mad when airlines dont fly to Heathrow.
May on this forum are mad when airlines do fly to Heathrow.

Many on this forum are mad when airlines refurbish and buy new china.
Many on this forum are mad when airlines dont refurbish and buy new china.

Many on this forum are mad when Flight Attendants dont act like slaves.
Many on this forum are mad when Flight Attendants act like slaves.

It is a no win situation!

To bad the judges in the United Airlines, and US Airways Bankruptcy cases werent more strict.

KAHALA777
 
Simpilicity
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:35 am

It's not rocket science ... unions get out of the way. Only chance DL has is to cut fleet/wages/staff numbers DRAMATICALLY, like cuut all by 50% & hold on for the ride !!!

What can judges really do? Very little? They can't make people fly a certain airline !!! They are only dodgy lawyers (scum of the earth) & public servants (double scum !!! About 3 rungs on the ladder below hookers !!!
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:16 am

I see where this thread is going, just another big old Bash Delta Pilot's affair..but I was quite amused to see how much crap the judge isn't putting up with. Nice to see something going the right way for a change.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 8):
In short, she's pissed that DL is trying to be cute and take the quick easy way out rather than working with the pilots.

And rightfully so, remember when you used to go to your parents and cry because someone pissed you off? That's essentially what Geinstein did here, and I'm glad she's not putting up with it.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 9):
Agreed. If I were Gerald Grinstein, I'd be asking that Judge Beatty be thrown out of this case with cause (I forget the actual term), as it is fairly obvious that she has bias that is clouding her judgement.

I don't think she has a bias, as we thought she was biased to the pilots before...she's turned out to be quite unpredictable, but she's also proven to be a straight shooter- she's asking the questions that need to have been answered a long time ago.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 24):
This woman is a brainless fool. Get her off the bench, NOW!

Unnecessary...go look in the mirror and tell that to the guy starting back. vomit 

Quoting LongbowPilot (Reply 34):
I"m tired of all these "lets bash delta threads." you all got anything else to do in life? Pick on Southwest or something

I like that, LongbowPilot  Smile

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 36):
Any day you can go to the simulator and see empty boxes or (even worse) see other airlines renting our simulators while DAL management says "we are at training capacity and cannot train any faster."

World seems to be crawling all over that place every time I'm there, then again it's on the MD-11...seems like there's more non-DL pilots than anything. Last time I counted, there were like 4-5 empty sim bays (mostly from the 727's going away)..and they still complain of lack of training capacity. I can go in there anytime of the week and get an hour in a sim, because it seems like noone is ever flying!

This'll be an interesting next few days/weeks.....I personally think she's a straight shooter with upper management written all over her. Maybe now the pilots can show the company "No, we ain't gonna take it, we're not gonna take it, anymore"  box 

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
Tornado82
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:24 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 40):
This'll be an interesting next few days/weeks.....I personally think she's a straight shooter with upper management written all over her. Maybe now the pilots can show the company "No, we ain't gonna take it, we're not gonna take it, anymore"

Nice Office Space quote usage there... but then if the Pilots do start singing that to the company... the company could easily pull the plug on their microphone and close down the whole show. Who wins then?
 
scotron11
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:17 am

Of her saying she found it weird that DL agreed to pay their pilots so much in the first place, I find it quite funny. And she was basically saying " What the hell were you folks thinking?"

One example: A mid-career captain of a 757 at DL gets paid $181 per flight hour. Based on an average of 80 hours a month, equates to $174K/year. Not too shabby, IMHO! Comparable rates at AA, NW & UA range from $144-166.

Additionally, how many DL pilots have taken early retirement before and after the earlier $1Billion concessions? Tons! I get a real feeling that the pilots and ALPA do not give a shit what happens one way or the other. All they seem to care about is the comfortable lifestlyle.

Their lifestlyle was so comfortable, the comedian Bob Newhart joked that he always chose Delta because he wanted "happy people" flying his plane!
 
NASBWI
Posts: 922
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:32 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 38):
Some of the people on this forum never cease to amaze.

Many on this forum are mad when the judges say to little.
Many on this forum are mad when judges say to much.

Many on this forum are mad when airlines get away with pension robbing.
Many on this forum are mad when pensions arent robbed.

Many on this forum are mad when airlines dont repaint.
Many on this forum are mad when airlines repaint.

Many on this forum are mad when airlines pull routes.
Many on this forum are mad when airlines done pull routes.

Many on this forum are mad when airlines dont fly to Heathrow.
May on this forum are mad when airlines do fly to Heathrow.

Many on this forum are mad when airlines refurbish and buy new china.
Many on this forum are mad when airlines dont refurbish and buy new china.

Many on this forum are mad when Flight Attendants dont act like slaves.
Many on this forum are mad when Flight Attendants act like slaves.

It is a no win situation!

To bad the judges in the United Airlines, and US Airways Bankruptcy cases werent more strict.

KAHALA777

Simple human nature, Kahala - in a simple cliche: You can't please everyone.
Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
 
jumbojet
Posts: 1093
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:05 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 41):
but then if the Pilots do start singing that to the company... the company could easily pull the plug on their microphone and close down the whole show. Who wins then?

hopefully not before my LGA - SXM flight on Dec 10.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 1093
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:24 am

The latest from today's court hearings from the Atlanta business chronical.

U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Prudence Carter Beatty will allow bankrupt Delta Air Lines Inc. to sell certain aircraft, according to court documents.

Atlanta-based Delta (Pink Sheets: DALRQ) wants to sell an undisclosed number of Boeing 767, Boeing 737 and Embraer 120 aircraft to an unspecified buyer.
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
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RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:40 am

Quoting JumboJet (Thread starter):
OK, why not have a contingency plan ready in case of a strike? Why can't they have retired pilots ready to take over? Get them their medicals now and any other training that they may need out of the way and hence, you have a contingency plan.

How ridicilous.

You can't just replace striking pilots. Most of the retired pilots are restricted due to their age. The ones that are still young enough to fly would require hundreds of hours (and tens of millions of dollars worth) of training.

We have always enjoyed a good relationship with the pilots union. They are depserate to protect their lifestyles. I think, however, that they are more interested in saving their jobs in the long term.

There is a lot of posturing going on to be sure. But when push comes to shove, I think the pilots will agree to what the company says it needs now. Afterall, history shows that this company compensates the pilots VERY well during good times. When good times return, and they most certainly will, i think it's a fair assumption that the company would pay what it could afford.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:43 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 38):
Some of the people on this forum never cease to amaze.

Many on this forum are mad when the judges say to little.
Many on this forum are mad when judges say to much.

Many on this forum are mad when airlines get away with pension robbing.
Many on this forum are mad when pensions arent robbed.

Many on this forum are mad when airlines dont repaint.
Many on this forum are mad when airlines repaint.

Many on this forum are mad when airlines pull routes.
Many on this forum are mad when airlines done pull routes.

Many on this forum are mad when airlines dont fly to Heathrow.
May on this forum are mad when airlines do fly to Heathrow.

Many on this forum are mad when airlines refurbish and buy new china.
Many on this forum are mad when airlines dont refurbish and buy new china.

Many on this forum are mad when Flight Attendants dont act like slaves.
Many on this forum are mad when Flight Attendants act like slaves.

It is a no win situation!

To bad the judges in the United Airlines, and US Airways Bankruptcy cases werent more strict.

KAHALA777

And that's why it's a forum, so people can express their views. It would be boring if everyone thought the same way.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 1093
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:14 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 46):
How ridicilous.

You can't just replace striking pilots. Most of the retired pilots are restricted due to their age. The ones that are still young enough to fly would require hundreds of hours (and tens of millions of dollars worth) of training.

Yes, it may sound ridicoulus to you but I have to admit, I lack basic understanding of situations like this as it relates to the airline industry. It just seems that delta would be able to come up with some sort of contigency plan, but thanks for explaining otherwise.
 
Amy
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:48 am

RE: Delta Judge Says She's Wary Of 'union Busting'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:38 pm

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 47):

And that's why it's a forum, so people can express their views. It would be boring if everyone thought the same way.

True, however there is a larger than normal proportion of attack on this forum. A.netters love to think they know better than the pros. Some of the time they do. Most of the time they don't.

I'm glad that this judge has some personality. She seems to know what she's talking about. She also seems to be giving both sides a reasonably hard time of it. This is an important deal to be done with DL and it's pilots, any judge finding a quick and easy option for either side is not doing their job.
A340-300 - slow, but awesome!