Fokker70NG
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CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:28 am

According to this article: http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=11332 (sorry, in Dutch), the International Bureau of Aviation (IBA) said in a report the decision of the Dutch Aviation Authorities (IVW) to ban Onur Air last summer was unfair.

Summary of the article:
The IBA investigated the ban and said there were no maintenance issues, one of the claims of IVW the ban was based on. The 'serious incidents' that were the immediate reason to ban 8Q, weren't that serious at all, according to the IBA.
The IBA also said that banning the airline as a whole wasn't legitimate, instead IVW should have banned only the particular plane(s). IVW states in a response that the maintenance issues were not the real reason, but Onur's 'careless' management was the real reason to place the ban.
Onur Air's CEO, Mr. Bagana, now claims that Dutch competition (I guess he means HV and MP, Onur's direct competitors) forced Dutch Authorities to ban Onur Air.


In fact KLM's subsidiaries HV and MP did profit from the 8Q ban, and KLM has a lot of influence with the authorities. I'm not saying Mr. Bagana is right, but there is a possibility that KLM pushed IVW to place the ban, after rumours about a possible ban were going on for a long time. Still it's a very serious accusation!

By the way, if this has been posted before, please excuse me. I didn't found a thread on this subject however.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
 
keesje
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:40 am

Onur's market overlap is limited with Transavia (package deals)/ Martinair (Freight, further distinations).

KLM is not involved in competative policy of these leisure carriers, they're doing perfectly themselves.

KLM doesn't comment / advise on service aspects of other operators.

Seems Onur is looking for an underdog position & distracting blame from its own problems.

The "underdog" positioning is typical for low costs & start ups.

Distracting attention / blaming others for its own problem is more serious. They better put energy in solving those problems IMO.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
na
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:45 am

Maybe Dutch carriers influenced it, but that Onur Air, like other "cheap" Turkish charter carriers, has more safety problems than can easily be overseen, is beyond doubt. Last week there was a program about MNG and a row of trouble with their airplanes in German TV, again an airline I hardly would like to fly with. Second-or thirdhand 25 year old first generation A300s in the hands of cheap charter carriers never sounded convincing to me.

I agree though that rather than banning (and possibly bankcrupting) a whole airline it would be better to ban certain airplanes which prove to fail regularly. Onur for example has a diverse fleet, some crappy old ones as well as newer ones. And its almost always the badly maintained old ones that make the trouble.
 
Fokker70NG
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:57 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
Onur's market overlap is limited with Transavia (package deals)/ Martinair (Freight, further distinations).

KLM is not involved in competative policy of these leisure carriers, they're doing perfectly themselves.

No, but HV is a fully subsidiary of KLM and they have a 50% share in MP. So KLM is involved in this market, although not with their own brand.

Quoting NA (Reply 2):
I agree though that rather than banning (and possibly bankcrupting) a whole airline it would be better to ban certain airplanes which prove to fail regularly. Onur for example has a diverse fleet, some crappy old ones as well as newer ones. And its almost always the badly maintained old ones that make the trouble.

Exactly, their A300's and MD-80's seem to be a bit crappy, but their A321 fleet are rather well maintained I believe. They even got an award from Airbus last summer, for excellent maintenace on their A321's I believe.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
 
TheSorcerer
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:19 am

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 3):
They even got an award from Airbus last summer, for excellent maintenace on their A321's I believe.

Didn't an overhead panel on an Onur A321 fall onto a pax's head while taxiing for take-off. The F/A ran to the cockpit but the pilots kept on taxiing and it was business as usual.
Can anyone confirm this?
Thanks
Dominic
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
 
JetMaster
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:21 am

Quoting Fokker70NG (Thread starter):
I guess he means HV and MP, Onur's direct competitors) forced Dutch Authorities to ban Onur Air.

Instead blaming the competition he should make sure his airline doesn't get another ban in the future. Who would be blame after a second "Birgenair"-like accident?

Quoting Fokker70NG (Thread starter):
Still it's a very serious accusation!

Indeed.

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 3):
Exactly, their A300's and MD-80's seem to be a bit crappy, but their A321 fleet are rather well maintained I believe. They even got an award from Airbus last summer, for excellent maintenace on their A321's I believe.

It doesn't matter when only certain types are maintained well, the whole fleet should be in perfectly safe condition. It's absolutely useless for passengers to to know about awards for certain types when they swap one type for another prior to a flight.


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
gokmengs
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:23 am

Quoting NA (Reply 2):
Maybe Dutch carriers influenced it, but that Onur Air, like other "cheap" Turkish charter carriers,

Excuse me! Would you name the other "cheap" carriers from Turkey? I would like to compare the fleet age(seems like thats the only factor you use for safety) of Onur air with other charter carriers.
Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
 
Fokker70NG
Topic Author
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:38 am

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 5):
Instead blaming the competition he should make sure his airline doesn't get another ban in the future. Who would be blame after a second "Birgenair"-like accident?

These statements of Mr. Bagana won't improve their relationship with the Dutch Aviation Authorities I think. So it's quite stupid, even if there's a little bit of truth in what he says, although that is doubtful.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 5):
It doesn't matter when only certain types are maintained well, the whole fleet should be in perfectly safe condition. It's absolutely useless for passengers to to know about awards for certain types when they swap one type for another prior to a flight.

You're totally right, but IVW could have banned the A300's and MD-80's only. According to the IBA, banning a whole airline isn't legitimate, and the reasons IVW had at the time to ban Onur also weren't valid. Don't ask me why, I'm only quoting the article.

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 6):
Excuse me! Would you name the other "cheap" carriers from Turkey? I would like to compare the fleet age(seems like thats the only factor you use for safety) of Onur air with other charter carriers.

Other 'cheap' Turkish carriers include Fly Air and MNG Airlines.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
 
JetMaster
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:39 am

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 6):
Excuse me! Would you name the other "cheap" carriers from Turkey? I would like to compare the fleet age(seems like thats the only factor you use for safety) of Onur air with other charter carriers.

He refers to the older fleet members specifically. Onur's A300Bs reach an average age of 25.5 years.


Average fleet age (years):

AtlasJet: 8.3
Fly Air: 19.6
Freebird: 13.7
Inter Als: 9.4
KTHY: 7,1
MNG Pax: 19.2
Onur Air: 12.6
Pegasus: 5.6
Sky Als: 12.0
World Focus: 11.0



Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:41 am

Quoting Fokker70NG (Thread starter):
the decision of the Dutch Aviation Authorities (IVW) to ban Onur Air

Why's he only blaming Dutch authorities? As far as I remember the ban was almost European-wide. Or is he also protesting in the other countries?
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
JetMaster
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:43 am

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 7):
You're totally right, but IVW could have banned the A300's and MD-80's only. According to the IBA, banning a whole airline isn't legitimate, and the reasons IVW had at the time to ban Onur also weren't valid. Don't ask me why, I'm only quoting the article.

If an airline doesn't take care of certain types, then there's always a chance other types could be affected as well. An award from a manufacturer is not a guarantee forever. Better safe than sorry.


Regards,
JM
The Journey is my Destination
 
Beaucaire
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:56 am

Average fleeet-age No. aircraft

AirTran 15.21 63
Alaska 9.37 103
Aloha 13.76 23
America West 10.29 141
American 10.46 836
ATA 8.16 61
Continental 7.35 379
Delta 11.22 594
JetBlue 1.73 26
Midwest 26.83 36
Northwest 20.19 431
Southwest 9.23 370
United 8.76 561
USAirways 11.42 241

Just to put things in perspective -fleet-age is not a direct indicator of safe or unsafe operation.This is true for all airlines worldwide -even for all turkish airlines.....
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
bahadir
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:47 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 11):
Average fleeet-age No. aircraft

AirTran 15.21 63
Alaska 9.37 103
Aloha 13.76 23
America West 10.29 141
American 10.46 836
ATA 8.16 61
Continental 7.35 379
Delta 11.22 594
JetBlue 1.73 26
Midwest 26.83 36
Northwest 20.19 431
Southwest 9.23 370
United 8.76 561
USAirways 11.42 241

I think this list is a bit old. AirTran has average age of 15 years? They have 717s and 73Gs only.

Just to put things in perspective -fleet-age is not a direct indicator of safe or unsafe operation.This is true for all airlines worldwide -even for all turkish airlines.....

I agree with this completely. If an airliner is in bad shape , she is in bad shape. Despite the hours/years/cycles behind her.
Earthbound misfit I
 
fraT
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:17 am

Can somebody explain me what the IBA is. I havn't heard of them so far. Where are they located, is it a private or a government organisation?
Please help!
 
Fokker70NG
Topic Author
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air

Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:43 am

Quoting FraT (Reply 13):
Can somebody explain me what the IBA is. I havn't heard of them so far. Where are they located, is it a private or a government organisation?
Please help!

Quote from their website:
"We aim to minimise the risk and maximise the opportunity for our clients using our knowledge and experience in both the technical and commercial aspects of the industry. We are also very proud to remain one of the few consulting companies who are completely independent from any financial institution, leasing company, manufacturer or supplier."
(www.ibagroup.com)
I believe they're a private organisation. They're based in England.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 10):
If an airline doesn't take care of certain types, then there's always a chance other types could be affected as well. An award from a manufacturer is not a guarantee forever. Better safe than sorry.

You're right again, but on the other hand, an award from a manufacturer must say something. And they got the award at the same time they got banned from The Netherlands and various other EU countries.

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 9):

Why's he only blaming Dutch authorities? As far as I remember the ban was almost European-wide. Or is he also protesting in the other countries?

The ban became almost European-wide after Dutch authorities placed the ban. Some people believe that other countries just took over the ban, thinking that Dutch authorities would have a good reason to ban 8Q. I don't know if that's true.

[Edited 2005-11-29 20:44:38]
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
 
ba319-131
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:02 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 11):
Average fleeet-age No. aircraft

AirTran 15.21 63

-What, with all those new 717 & 73G's?!, something must be wrong here.......
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
emrecan
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:57 am

When I told regarding this unfair decision, some friends tried to blame me for conspiracy theories. I want to hear their oppinions about IBA`s decision !!!
 
emrecan
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:58 am

When I told regarding this unfair decision, some friends tried to blame me for conspiracy theories. I want to hear their oppinions about IBA`s decision !!!
 
keesje
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:59 am

I think dutch authorities don´t do a ban easily.

I think they are allergic towards not correcting flaws after repeated warnings.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
TheSonntag
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:20 am

Well, I cannot comment on whether this ban had justification or not. But the Netherlands and Germany are no "banana" republics. We don't ban airlines just to get advantages for our own carriers, as this would lead to huge compensation claims before the courts if it can be proven.

However, if it was true this would have to be taken very seriously.

But i doubt that. I think accepting criticism is vital for a good safety culture. So after Onur was banned, instead of looking back they should look forward and cosequently listen to all justified critics.

For example, some years ago serious maintenance problems were found at LTU, a German charter airline (in 1996, I guess). The airline reacted at once and took all steps in order to eradicate all doubts.

However, Onur just plays the "we are innocent" card. This bears some resemblance to the events that took place during the soccer game against Switzerland. Instead of admitting problems and irregularities, only others are blamed.

I personally think it is good Onur air was banned. I believe the authorities. Nevertheless courts should take a look, and I guess Onur Air has taken all legal measures to bring the incident before the courts.

Michael
 
JRadier
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 14):
Quote from their website:
"We aim to minimise the risk and maximise the opportunity for our clients using our knowledge and experience in both the technical and commercial aspects of the industry. We are also very proud to remain one of the few consulting companies who are completely independent from any financial institution, leasing company, manufacturer or supplier."
(www.ibagroup.com)
I believe they're a private organisation. They're based in England.

in other words, we are paid by the customer, and if they hear what they want to hear they will return in the future...... REALLLY creditable source.....
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
kappel
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 19):
But the Netherlands and Germany are no "banana" republics.

I'm not sure about the Netherlands, the way things are going in the politics the last couple of years... but that's a different subject.  Wink

If this turns out to be an illegal ban, I wonder what the consequenses will be. Will the government be forced to pay damages to 8Q? I wonder what court will decide that, since Turkey is not a member of the EU, and the IVW is a government institution. I fear this is a fruitless battle for 8Q, even if they turn out to be right.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
Fokker70NG
Topic Author
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:11 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 20):

in other words, we are paid by the customer, and if they hear what they want to hear they will return in the future...... REALLLY creditable source.....

Have you read the report? I didn't, and although IBA must be somewhat biased I tend to believe that there should be some truth in their report, because if they just say what Onur Air wants them to say they wouldn't make themselves look reliable as an independent reliable investigation bureau.
But that doesn't mean that I agree with the accusations of the Onur Air CEO. I only stated that KL wouldn't mind an 8Q ban, and I think they have enough influence to force one. But unless otherwise proven, I don't think the IVW decision was forced by KL or another Dutch carrier.
Of course there have been numerous serious incidents with Onur Air, but this report is about the incidents the ban was based on. Although I think a ban was perhaps justified and I hope it served as a real warning towards Onur Air, I have my questions about the incidents the ban was based on. If I recall correctly, the immediate cause of the ban was an engine fail just after take off which was caused by Foreign Object Damage.
Ban justified? I think so. But was the ban justified at that time and for that reason? I don't know.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
 
firiko
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:21 am

Hi,
I am surprised some of you can still blame Onur Air. If it was a question of life or death like the Dutch authorities made it sound like dont you think the entire world would ban Onur Air. ? Let the courts decide, its suprising how much some of you guys can tell with out any inside information or facts ? The Ceo isn't stupid, he must know that huge misleading claims can cost him money and his airline. He must have evidencery support to back it up or his legal team would shut him up.
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4296
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RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:20 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 21):
Will the government be forced to pay damages to 8Q? I wonder what court will decide that, since Turkey is not a member of the EU, and the IVW is a government institution. I fear this is a fruitless battle for 8Q, even if they turn out to be right

The fact that Turkey is not a member of the EU isn't relevant. Onur Air is a private company and can thus go to court against the decision before a dutch court.

I don't know the Dutch legal system. In Germany it is done like this: If Onur Air is denied to land in Germany by the LBA (German aviation authority), this is a so-called Verwaltungsakt (administrative decision). The individual towards which this act is adressed (= Onur Air) may go to court against it.
Lets assume the act is illegal. In this case Onur Air can go to courts and claim it is illegal, the apropriate action would be the Fortsetzungsfeststellungsklage (I don't know who invented that name) before an administrative court. This court will decide whether it was legal or not to forbid the landings in Germany.

If it was illegal, you can go to (another) court and claim compensation for the losses.

Any legal person can do that, just like a natural person.

The system is complicated and takes time, but it certainly is justified.
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:08 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 24):
The system is complicated and takes time, but it certainly is justified

The problem is that even if the dutch government is ordered to pay whatever amount of money to Onur Air, who will enforce the verdict? Especially a dutch verdict? I studied law in The Netherlands, and one of the subject was international private law. Enforcement in such a case is a big problem. The procedures may look good on paper, but in practice not a whole lot is accomplished. Maybe if it was a claim against HV or MP, but against a government is a whole other scenario. In dutch private law, a government institution is generally immune to ligitation. I have studied some case law regarding this subjexct. Maybe some dutch fellow a.netters know about the "Pikmeer" verdicts. There are politicians who want to change this, but why bite the hand that feeds.

So that's why I believe that even if Onur is right, it will lead to nothing for them but legal fees (and maybe regaining some lost face)

[Edited 2005-11-30 21:12:09]
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
fraT
Posts: 992
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:29 am

Has Onur Air sued any country or government?
If yes, lets wait for the verdict.
But I agree with the post above. There are similarities to the soccer match. Only the others are wrong.
 
illusion
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:05 am

RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:03 am

A rather serious accusation but on the other hand during the days when Onur was banned KLM offered to carry Onur's passengers and the Minister refused so Turkish Airlines along with several charters carried these passengers... So there were rumors about KLM and the Dutch Authorities about forcing Onur's ban... But then again that was a rumor... Better to wait for the courts to decide...

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 19):
This bears some resemblance to the events that took place during the soccer game against Switzerland. Instead of admitting problems and irregularities, only others are blamed.



Quoting FraT (Reply 26):
There are similarities to the soccer match. Only the others are wrong.

Totally 2 different subjects to compare... But about the things that happened in Switzerland... The co-trainer that kicked the Swiss player after the game resigned, The Minister of Sports asked the Football Federation president to resign and he is expected to do so after the FIFA investigation, 2 football players are now expected to get penalty for their behavior and the national trainer is really having a hard time especially from the media... So not only others are blamed...
just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there...
 
fraT
Posts: 992
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:15 am

Quoting Illusion (Reply 27):
Totally 2 different subjects to compare... But about the things that happened in Switzerland... The co-trainer that kicked the Swiss player after the game resigned, The Minister of Sports asked the Football Federation president to resign and he is expected to do so after the FIFA investigation, 2 football players are now expected to get penalty for their behavior and the national trainer is really having a hard time especially from the media... So not only others are blamed...

Two different subjects but a lot of similarities. You are right, some newspapers are calling for the resignation of the coach and the soccer boss. But they are still there. Why havn't they been kicked out?
OK, that's OT so let's wait if any court deals with the ONUR case and makes a decision.
 
illusion
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:05 am

RE: CEO Onur Air: 'Dutch Carriers Forced Onur Air Ban'

Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:19 am

Quoting FraT (Reply 28):
But they are still there. Why havn't they been kicked out?

Waiting for the FIFA investigation to conclude I think... They won't last long beleive me...

Cheers!
just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there...

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