dforce1
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New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:46 am

"The new Jazz Air Income Fund will be adding planes to its fleet and expanding its network, Air Canada's parent company said yesterday as it confirmed plans to turn its regional airline division into a trust........."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...051129/RJAZZ29/TPBusiness/Canadian

Any guesses on new aircraft? I doubt they would be adding any actual new types of aircraft but rather adding to their existing fleet. Although, the Dash 8's will be in need of replacing soon and I know the JAZZ CEO has made it no secret that he wants the Q400. When could we expect an order? What do you think the odds are that they might go to an even larger sized aircraft for their US Services? CRJ900? Bombardier C Series?

As for routes, the article made specific mention of Jazz wanting to move in further on WestJet's territory in Western Canada. Which Western city do you think stands to gain the most? I would hope that they would focus on underserved markets as opposed to trying to go head to head with WestJet. We'll obviously be seeing more transborder service with the announcement of the US Airways agreement.
 
Cruiser
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:54 am

A lot of CRJ200's, and a bunch of the smaller regional jets have recently been moved from the mainline and into Jazz. If I had to guess though, I would say more CRJ-705's.

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
PDPsol
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:10 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 1):
A lot of CRJ200's, and a bunch of the smaller regional jets have recently been moved from the mainline and into Jazz.

What other "bunch of the smaller regional jets" other than the CRJ's are you referring to here? Also the CRJ's transferred from AC to Jazz are CRJ100's. The 15 new CRJ200's and 15 new CRJ705's were accepted directly by Jazz, except for 8 CRJ200's which were leased directly by AC. From the filing:

"As at October 31, 2005, Jazz had taken delivery of all 15 CRJ-200s and 15 CRJ-705s ordered by Air Canada in September 2004. As at the same date, Air Canada had transferred to Jazz nine of its CRJ-100s, with six more to be transferred by the end of 2005, and the remaining ten by July 2006. In addition, three CRJ-200s leased by Air Canada from a third party were delivered to Jazz during September and October 2005 and five additional CRJ-200s to be leased by Air Canada from such third party are scheduled to be delivered to Jazz during the remainder of 2005. Thus, by July 2006, Jazz plans to operate an all Bombardier fleet of 135 aircraft, comprised of 73 CRJ regional jets and 62 Dash 8 turboprop aircraft. Air Canada also has options for up to 45 additional Bombardier regional jets."
 
PDPsol
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:14 am

Also, there is a VERY juicy bit of information regarding that pesky ACPA union and their complaints with the CRJ100 transfers to Jazz. From the filing:

"The timing of the transfer of 25 CRJ-100 aircraft originally operated by Air Canada, the remaining 16 of which are scheduled to be delivered in 2005 and 2006, is currently the subject of a grievance by ACPA under its collective agreement with Air Canada. Although the outcome of this proceeding cannot be determined with certainty, based on previous procedures relating to the deployment of aircraft at Jazz, Management expects that the current schedule for the transfer of the 25 CRJ-100s should not be affected."
 
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ERJ170
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:23 am

Cool note..

As of April 2, 2006.. RDU goes from AC CRJ to Jazz CRJ. However, in addition, RDU goes from 3x daily to 4x daily. Not quite the upgrade to the E75 I was hoping for, but 4x daily is really cool.
Aiming High and going far..
 
dforce1
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:11 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 4):
As of April 2, 2006.. RDU goes from AC CRJ to Jazz CRJ. However, in addition, RDU goes from 3x daily to 4x daily. Not quite the upgrade to the E75 I was hoping for, but 4x daily is really cool.

No, not an E75, but maybe you'll get the Jazz CRJ705 as opposed to the CRJ100.

Where does AC/Jazz fly to from RDU?
 
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ERJ170
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:18 am

RDU-YYZ..

I wish instead of 4 YYZ, they would do 3 YYZ and 1 YUL.. but oh well.. beggers can't be choosers
Aiming High and going far..
 
ACYWG
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:24 pm

Quoting DFORCE1 (Thread starter):
What do you think the odds are that they might go to an even larger sized aircraft for their US Services? CRJ900? Bombardier C Series?

Probably very slim, due to union agreements. Last I checked Jazz is limited to 75 seat aircraft, which is one of the reasons why they had Bombardier whip them up some CRJ705's rather than the more common CRJ700's or CRJ900's.
 
connector4you
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:02 pm

Without a 100 seat minimum jet-aircraft Jazz has no future. They will eventually enter in competition with American carriers as soon as a full Open Sky agreement will come to fruition between Canada, US, Mexico (?)

Air Canada knows it . . .

B737-500/600, or A318 orders should be considered
 
sebring
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:12 pm

Quoting Connector4you (Reply 8):
Without a 100 seat minimum jet-aircraft Jazz has no future. They will eventually enter in competition with American carriers as soon as a full Open Sky agreement will come to fruition between Canada, US, Mexico (?)

Air Canada knows it . . .

B737-500/600, or A318 orders should be considered

What the hell are you talking about? Canada and the US have a full open skies agreement, and if you mean cabotage, it won't happen in our lifetime.

You know not what you say!
 
md90fan
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:54 pm

Quoting Connector4you (Reply 8):
B737-500/600

They couldnt order 735 or should I say any 737Classics, are/were there any regional carriers that operated 737's or A320's ( no F100's or E-190's)
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
N1120A
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:12 pm

Quoting Connector4you (Reply 8):
B737-500/600, or A318 orders should be considered

The 735 is no longer built and neither one of the A318 or 736 will or should be considered. First, they have horrible operating economics as compares to the E195. Second, Air Canada already operates the E175 in mainline service, so there is no reason a 100 seater wouldn't be also operated by mainline.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
connector4you
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:01 pm

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 10):
are/were there any regional carriers that operated 737's or A320's ( no F100's or E-190's)

Bangkok Airways, ATA, Frontier, Hapag-Lloyd Express, Germanwings, Meridiana,etc take your pick

http://www.shephard.co.uk/DirectoryO...d207c0-61c2-4d0e-bc52-b7df01b8afd9
 
N1120A
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:04 pm

Quoting Connector4you (Reply 12):
Bangkok Airways, ATA, Frontier, Hapag-Lloyd Express, Germanwings, Meridiana,etc take your pick

None of those are regional carriers.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
connector4you
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:07 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
None of those are regional carriers.

What's your definition of Regional?
 
N723GW
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:34 pm

Do you think GRR would be a possibility for AC/Jazz? I have no idea if it would work, but I do know that there are more then 50 people who go above the border every day. A subsidary of AC used to serve them with BE1's a LONG time ago, I can't remeber the name though, your thaughts?
The dude abides
 
Tennisace
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:29 am

Quoting DFORCE1 (Thread starter):
As for routes, the article made specific mention of Jazz wanting to move in further on WestJet's territory in Western Canada. Which Western city do you think stands to gain the most? I would hope that they would focus on underserved markets as opposed to trying to go head to head with WestJet. We'll obviously be seeing more transborder service with the announcement of the US Airways agreement.

IMHO possible new routes..........

YXE/YQR nonstop to YOW/YUL
YLW-YEG/YYJ (Wesjet has a number of n/s per day. Jazz can steal a few passengers with a DH8 or two)
Maybe YEG/YYC to Whitehorse/Yellowknife (????)
And probably a number of transborder routes from YEG, YWG, maybe YLW,YYJ, YXX too.
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:52 am

Quoting N723GW (Reply 15):
Do you think GRR would be a possibility for AC/Jazz? I have no idea if it would work, but I do know that there are more then 50 people who go above the border every day. A subsidary of AC used to serve them with BE1's a LONG time ago, I can't remeber the name though, your thaughts?

Highly doubtful, as they couldn't sustain the route with a 19-seat Beech. The smallest Jazz aircraft is the 37-seat DH8-100. Believe GRR was served by Air Alliance and perhaps even possibly the short lived Air Toronto.
Above and Beyond
 
N1120A
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:03 am

Quoting Connector4you (Reply 14):
What's your definition of Regional?

A regional carrier is an airline that operates flights in partnership with another airline to the region around a hub. Examples are Skywest, Mesa, Horizon, Comair, etc. The carriers you mentioned (with the possible exception of Meridiana) are independent carriers operating independent of such an agreement. Actually, most of the carriers you mentioned are LCCs with rather large route networks
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
yqmfan
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:41 am

Love to have a CRJ from YQM to YOW! Sadly, there are no direct flights. Anyone ever heard of a direct flight between these two cities? Also, there are no direct flights between YQM to YUL other than AC. Anyone hear of plans for Westjet or CanJet to fly this route?
 
FCYTravis
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:56 am

I wouldn't be shocked to see some of those go into transborder service to the West Coast US Airways destinations... like the YYZ/YEG-LAX routes that were operated by America West Express with the CRJ-900.
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
fallingeese
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:45 am

No matter what they do, they will certainly be limitted in the scope clause associated with the mainline carrier. Any move that is made regarding the fleet will be picked at, word for word, by the union.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
dforce1
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:34 am

Quoting Tennisace (Reply 16):
YXE/YQR nonstop to YOW/YUL
YLW-YEG/YYJ (Wesjet has a number of n/s per day. Jazz can steal a few passengers with a DH8 or two)
Maybe YEG/YYC to Whitehorse/Yellowknife (????)
And probably a number of transborder routes from YEG, YWG, maybe YLW,YYJ, YXX too.

Both Air Canada Jazz & Zip used to operate a YEG to YYJ. I'm not sure why they haven't picked up on this again. WJ has seem to have had a monopoly on it for years. I'd love to see it come back as well as a YLW-YYJ - again its another WJ monopoly and I'm sure that Jazz could steal some loyal AC flyers if WJ can manage to fill a B737.

I'd like to see Jazz operate a YYJ-SEA route and feed Star Alliance traffic to United's Seattle hub. United had Skywest operate this route briefly but pulled out after 9/11. I'd love to see it come back. Horizon has had a monopoly on this route for years. Helijet operated a YYJ-Boeing Field route but that wasn't successful as it lacked the business traffic.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 20):
West Coast US Airways destinations... like the YYZ/YEG-LAX routes that were operated by America West Express with the CRJ-900.

America West Express flew LAX-YYZ in a CRJ900? Does that make any sense at all? Surely, that route could yield at least an A319/737!
 
connector4you
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:14 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
A regional carrier is an airline that operates flights in partnership with another airline to the region around a hub.

Not necessarily "in partnership" and not necessarily "to the region around the hub"

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Regional airlines are a type of airline service that is intended to feed a larger airline or larger aircraft.

It also describes air service between small communities that are not able to support larger aircraft"

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
The carriers you mentioned (with the possible exception of Meridiana) are independent carriers operating independent of such an agreement

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Regional airlines vary in ownership from being independent companies to being wholly owned subsidiaries of major carriers"

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
Actually, most of the carriers you mentioned are LCCs with rather large route networks

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"European regional airlines serve the intra-continental sector in Europe. They provide essential services for many of the continent's peripheral regions and are a major factor in the provision of transportation services intended to bind together the new European Community accession states with "traditional" Europe.

Some of Europe's regional airlines are subsidiaries of national air carriers, though there remains a strong entrepreneurial sector of independents. They are based on a variety of business models, from the "traditional" scheduled carrier through low cost airlines"

Anyhow good luck with your Lawyer/Doctoral Candidate career.
 
connector4you
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:26 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
The 735 is no longer built and neither one of the A318 or 736 will or should be considered. First, they have horrible operating economics as compares to the E195

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

"The notion that regional jet aircraft are less expensive (per seat mile) than traditional jets is a common misconception. On a per mile basis the RJ's cost can in fact be higher. The reason that regional jet operators provide an economic benefit to traditional airlines comes from the fee-per-departure payment structure under which these aircraft are operated. In this payment structure, a traditional airline contracts with a regional airline company on a per departure or per flight basis regardless of the number of passengers or the length of the flight. The traditional airline gets to keep all the revenue from the ticket sale and only pays the regional partner the agreed to amount. These contracts tend to be long term agreements, typically 10 year terms. The regional airline partner can then be relatively sure of the revenue side and only has to control cost in order to earn a modest return.

The idea that regional jets would provide point-to-point service and bypass the hub-and-spoke system may not be materializing as it was expected. As of January 2003 90% of all regional jet flights in the United States had a hub or major airport at one end of that flight, and this number has been gradually increasing since 1995."

As I said take care
 
Boeing744
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:36 pm

Quoting DFORCE1 (Reply 22):

I also live in YYJ and I would also like to see YYJ-SEA. Some other prospective routes would obviously be YLW and YEG, but I cannot see Jazz using a new DHC-400Q to YEG. It would have to be a CRJ-705 or -200ER. As for anymore transborder routes, would there be a market to PDX? I think this could be a profitable route from YYJ.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:38 pm

I would like to see AC Jazz come back to MSY sooner than later. By early next year the convention center will re-open, cruise ships will return, and at least some tourism should start to filter back into the city.

I would love to see AC return for Mardi Gras (last week of Feb. this year), but that's probably too soon. I'm hoping for April at the latest.
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:45 pm

Quoting Tennisace (Reply 16):
Maybe YEG/YYC to Whitehorse/Yellowknife (????)

Air North operates monday-wednesday-friday YXY-YYC-YEG-YXY with a 737 but its never full. So if Air North dropped the route completly and QK went a few times a week with a CRJ it would make money, but with Joe there I can't see how 2 airlines can get enough pax to make money when just 1 airline is having trouble getting enough pax to make a profit.

There is alot of business between YEG and YZF, but there is already multiple flights a day with 737s from First Air and Canadian North, so they would have to put in some effort to steal a decent load for their CRJs. Also alot of the money on that route comes from cargo eh.

My vote for what Jazz should do is give up on those damn CRJ200s YVR/YXY and give us some CRJ705s. The flight is a little over 2 hours, and the flights are ussually full if not almost full on the CRJ200 and EVERYONE whines about how shi*tty the planes are, where as the 705 is a more comfortable plane and has more seats so you don't have to book way ahead to get on the flight you want.



CanadianNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
imatams
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:46 pm

Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 27):
My vote for what Jazz should do is give up on those damn CRJ200s YVR/YXY and give us some CRJ705s. The flight is a little over 2 hours, and the flights are ussually full if not almost full on the CRJ200 and EVERYONE whines about how shi*tty the planes are, where as the 705 is a more comfortable plane and has more seats so you don't have to book way ahead to get on the flight you want.

Oh joy that would be nice. Saves a 2 hr ride on those crappy CRJ's every time I go back there!!! YXY-YYZ would be nice to, but I doubt it, since half the Torontonians don't even seem to know Whitehorse exists  Smile

IM
 
Trvlr
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:43 am

I'm glad that AC is entering some new transborder markets with the addition of these new aircraft. I wonder what the scale of the expansion will be, though. Even YVR-SAN could arguably be described as a (geographically) regional route, but the addition of E190s opens up the possibility of new routes of nearer to transcon length.

Quoting Connector4you (Reply 23):
Anyhow good luck with your Lawyer/Doctoral Candidate career.

If his opponents rely solely on wikipedia, I'm sure N1102A's legal career is in good hands.  Wink

Aaron G.
 
dforce1
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:45 am

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 25):
As for anymore transborder routes, would there be a market to PDX? I think this could be a profitable route from YYJ.

I've often thought of this myself. My initial answer is no. While there may be a market, I doubt it would generate sufficient yields year round. There is definitely not enough business traffic between YYJ-PDX to make such a service viable. The reason SEA is so successful is a mixture of tourism and business, but more importantly, it is the major feeder hub for Alaska Airlines and other people choosing to route their travels through SEA. People from YYJ don't usually route through PDX for flights to Mexico or any other international flights. However, with that said, I'm sure a summer Dash 8 service between YYJ and PDX could have some potential. After the 2010 olympics, I'm almost sure the market will be there - even if the service is a one-stop service via Seattle.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:22 am

Hopefully AC Jazz will get some Q400s. If Jazz is going to compete on price they need to lower their costs. A Q400 would allow Jazz to profit at a price lower than Westjet.
 
dforce1
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:52 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 31):
Hopefully AC Jazz will get some Q400s. If Jazz is going to compete on price they need to lower their costs. A Q400 would allow Jazz to profit at a price lower than Westjet.

I agree - they don't cost much more to operate than the smaller 300 series and they are a far more comfortable and faster ride. They also offer more profit potential with the 74 seat capacity. I really wish Jazz would order some not just for our benefit but for the sake of Bombardier. I think the Q400 program needs a real kick start with a big order. It's nice to see Horizon advocating and getting behind Turboprops. Personally, I prefer them to any CRJ200.
 
Tornado82
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:40 am

Quoting N723GW (Reply 15):
A subsidary of AC used to serve them with BE1's a LONG time ago, I can't remeber the name though, your thaughts?

Air Georgian serves ABE, MHT, and others with B1900's. I don't know if they did GRR too, just throwing the idea out.

Quoting DFORCE1 (Reply 32):
Personally, I prefer them to any CRJ200.

I prefer the aforementioned B1900 to the CRJ200 if the route is under 90 minutes on the Beech. Beyond 90 minutes you're better off with the jet, no matter how crappy, just for the speed.
 
yow
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:33 am

Quoting YQMfan (Reply 19):
Love to have a CRJ from YQM to YOW! Sadly, there are no direct flights. Anyone ever heard of a direct flight between these two cities?

WS used to fly YQM-YOW on weekend but dropped it after their YHM pullout...like they've done with so many other routes east of Manitoba that they used to fly.

Quoting YQMfan (Reply 19):
Also, there are no direct flights between YQM to YUL other than AC. Anyone hear of plans for Westjet or CanJet to fly this route?

Both tried briefly competing with AC before pulling out.
 
Skywatcher
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:35 am

I flew the daily 737 YUL-YQM in July '04 on Westjet. It was totally full and was priced exactly the same as any of the 3 daily AC CRJ's at the time.
The reason I picked WS was because I was afraid AC was going to go belly-up between the time I paid and the date of the flight.
Ultimately, I quess AC dominated once they stabilized. Also, I don't think WS is organized in a way to effectively support a flight that flies between 2 eastern cities in Canada very well. Canjet would seem more natural on the route but I suppose the 737-500 is not the right aircraft.
 
Skywatcher
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RE: New AC Jazz Income Fund To Add Planes, Routes

Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:10 am

I just remembered that Air Labrador recently inaugurated YQM-YQB-YUL with dash 8's.

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