ctang
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2001 2:05 pm

Virgin And 772LR

Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:07 pm

Do you think Virgin Atlantic will order the 772LR in order to fly from London to Sydney nonstop? This will pose a big threat to QF.
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:12 pm

What about the other way around if QF opts for the 772LR? Will VS have to follow suit?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:16 pm

We're likely to see QF try this very soon. I think VS would then wait to see how well it work for QF before making a decision to follow suit.
 
TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:35 pm

I'd love to see any T7 in VS colors, that's for sure. I think if QF orders the 772LR for the Kangaroo route, a lot of airlines will jump onto the bandwagon.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
willyj
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:04 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:32 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
What about the other way around if QF opts for the 772LR? Will VS have to follow suit?

Given VS's lack of success thus far (from what I've heard here) on the LHR-SYD route, I don't see why they would feel they "had" to follow suit. They are a very small player in this market - BA, QF, EK, SQ, CX, MS, TG all offer more seats.
However, vS wants to break into this market, and the 772LR might be a great option. So far their major problem has been selling seats between HKG and SYD because most of the seats are already taken by LHR - HKG passengers and vv. This way thier LHR-HKG flight wouldn't have to share seats with SYD passengers.
What ever happened to the rumored 2nd VS flight from LHR to HKG by the way? Wasn't that a soloution to their problem?
 
blsbls99
Posts: 341
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:07 pm

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:37 pm

Why wouldn't Virgin hold more seats for SYD passengers and turn away LHR - HKG passengers?
If what you state is the case, sounds like they have an issue with seat management.
319 320 313 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 742 752 763 772 CRJ D9S ERJ EMB L10 M88 M90 SF3 AT4
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4292
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Quoting Blsbls99 (Reply 5):
Why wouldn't Virgin hold more seats for SYD passengers and turn away LHR - HKG passengers?
If what you state is the case, sounds like they have an issue with seat management

You would turn away a "sure" sale LON-HKG in the "hope" that you will get a LON-SYD sale in the future?

Does not sound like good business practice to me!


Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
OOer
Posts: 920
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:10 pm

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:28 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 6):
You would turn away a "sure" sale LON-HKG in the "hope" that you will get a LON-SYD sale in the future?

Does not sound like good business practice to me!

Agree.


However...they should have either a direct LHR-SYD to make sure those pax have seats available...and/or get another LHR-HKG flight and make the original LHR-HKG-SYD flight for LHR-SYD pax except for about 20-30 seats and make em pay for it if they want those seats...I guess unless the flight is full on BOTH segments than I dont believe VS is making much money on that flight. Just pulled up fares on VS...lowest LHR-HKG 432GPB, lowest LHR-SYD 739GBP. So its almost like another ticket from HKG-SYD...VS should do something so they make the most out of that flight!!!
 
iluv747400
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:12 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:58 pm

What would happen to their "4 engines 4 long haul" slogan?
 
Glom
Posts: 2051
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:38 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:01 pm

Quoting Iluv747400 (Reply 8):
What would happen to their "4 engines 4 long haul" slogan?

4 engines 4 long haul

2 engines 2 fly even further
 
mauriceb
Posts: 2150
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:50 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:06 pm

maybe theyll wait untill the ''new'' A340-500/600.... Airbus promises a much better performance than the 777-200LR/300ER, although it will take a while before they take into the sky's
 
767-332ER
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2001 1:20 pm

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:09 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 10):
maybe theyll wait untill the ''new'' A340-500/600.... Airbus promises a much better performance than the 777-200LR/300ER, although it will take a while before they take into the sky's

If Airbus got it right in the first place and not have to wait and see how Boeing beats them by setting the bar that much higher, then they'd be in a better position and not have to wait as long.
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
pixuk
Posts: 305
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:44 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:30 pm

Seems unlikely. Firstly, VS is moving to all-Airbus operations (certainly at LHR), and also they've already got their shopping list sorted out for the foreseeable future. Buying the 772LR just to operate one route wouldn't be economically sensible, as crew/maintenance issues would give them one hell of a headache.

I understand there are some developments to be announced regarding Oz, but nothing to do with the equipment.

Pete
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:41 am

While as much as I would like to see Virgin place a 777 order, I dont think that its going to happen......Virgin would essentially be buying the 772LR for one route, its LHR-SYD service, which is really not practical. Virgin does not need the range of the 772LR for any other potential route in its system, and flying a small fleet of 772LRs next to the A346s is not very effecient. Other issues are that the 772LRs are quite expensive to acquire, Virgin has not done as well as expected on its service to SYD (a lot does have to do with the flight's route via HKG which has proved to be troublesome), and, lastly, Boeing has not yet confirmed that the 772LR will be able to operate LHR-SYD year round nonstop in both directions with an economic payload. Boeing is close from what we hear to achieving this goal, but is being cautious (and rightly so).

That being said, Virgin is a very competitive and innovative airline, and we could be suprised......there is no doubt that QF will sign up for the 772LR once Boeing will guaranty that the 772LR can do the LHR-SYD route and Virgin could follow with its own order.

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 10):
maybe theyll wait untill the ''new'' A340-500/600.... Airbus promises a much better performance than the 777-200LR/300ER, although it will take a while before they take into the sky's

A couple of things to consider: the enhanced A345/A346s which are being talked about as a response to Boeing recent success with the 772LR/773ER are a long way off.......I think 2011 or 2012 is the time frame now being talked about, thats a long time to wait. Also, its far from certain that Airbus will commit to these projects.....Airbus has a lot going on at the moment with the A380 program and its issues, the A350 launch, talk about an update or successor to the A32X family (the volume line and profit center for Airbus) and now improved versions of the A345/A346. Lastly, Airbus has gotten itself into a difficult situation with some carriers recently and must be very careful not to over-estimate the potential performance of new products and must get back to delivering products on schedule, EK publically put Airbus on notice this week and its known that QF and SQ are not pleased with the delays in the A380 program, and certainly other airlines are closely watching the situation. It may not be the best time for Airbus to take on yet another project with enhanced versions of the A345/A346 airlines.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22920
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:34 am

I agree with those who feel VS will not buy 772LRs to launch non-stop SYD-LHR service.

They might, however, decide to take some A345s (perhaps AC's or, if/when they also move to 772LRs, SQ's) and outfit them in a boutique 100-seat Upper Class config to fly direct. VS does have some advantages in services on the ground (especially at LHR) and in the air that could make such a low-pax flight into a high-yield one.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:43 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 10):
maybe theyll wait untill the ''new'' A340-500/600.... Airbus promises a much better performance than the 777-200LR/300ER, although it will take a while before they take into the sky's

they have NOT promised MUCH BETTER performance than the 777-200LR, but in fact the same performance, and though the 346E proposed might do better than the current 773ER, it isn't a great deal better. If B only improves the plane 0.5% per year from now until 2012, they would match what Airbus offers, still with 2 engines.

Look at the history of the 747classic, 757, 767, 737NG and 777 and you will see very slight but steady increases in abilities every couple of years from improved engines, aero tweaks, lighter materials of some interior parts, etc.

The 346 is never going to offer "much better" performance than the 777. It never has, and it never will with 4 engines. This is because Airbus doesn't have a monopoly on engine advances. Anything RR/GE/PW/etc can do for A they can do for B.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 1619
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:10 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
They might, however, decide to take some A345s (perhaps AC's or, if/when they also move to 772LRs, SQ's) and outfit them in a boutique 100-seat Upper Class config to fly direct. VS does have some advantages in services on the ground (especially at LHR) and in the air that could make such a low-pax flight into a high-yield one.

I still doubt they would do it, but that is a much more likely scenario (esp if some cheap SQ A345's become available!). I'd imagine an Upper Class and PE cabin could do it, and have engine/crew/parts commonanilty with the A346 fleet.

Much more plausible is a second HKG frequency to assist with through loads on the VS200/201 service.
 
B707Stu
Posts: 893
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:15 pm

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:05 pm

I think Mr. Branson has too much pride to order the T7, he committed heavily to Airbus, would take an act of contrition and repentence for that to change.
 
sevenforeseven
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:59 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:08 pm

Willyj, You have it spot on. The VS flights to HKG are full therefore restricting the amount of seats VS are actually able to sell LHR-SYD from LHR. The aircraft used is a A340-600, "too small". the same happens on the return sector where the flight between HKG and LHR is full but SYD and HKG is not.
Perhaps VS can base a A340-300 in HKG or SYD to fly between the two and then pax can transfer on to a B747-400 for the LHR sector. I am sure VS would have looked into this but it maybe that the costs involved in the basing of a A/C away from LHR must have been huge.
On a brighter note I see VS loads have been steadily picking up between SYD and HKG, this is no doubt to the higher levels of service than the traditional two carriers BA & QF.
VS also state that it takes at least two years for a route to start earning profitable revenue. VS have only been flying it a year.
Good luck to VS as it sure has given the two bedroom partners BA and QF a good kick up the backside which has been long long overdue.
 
Rj111
Posts: 3007
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:02 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:29 pm

AC A345's are only 372 MTOW i belive, you'd need the 380MTOW one to even consider LHR-SYD and even that probably wouldn't offer enough pax to make it viable.

I think they'd only bother if the mysterious A345E went through, it could potentially have quite a tasty range. The A345 already has massive fuel tanks and MTOW, but is let down by its astonishing OEW - it's more of an A346SP. If they could get some of that weight off and give it more efficient engines, i'd imagine they could increase that range enough to allow SYD-LHR comfortably in both directions.

Both ideas are a long way off reality at the minute though.
 
blsbls99
Posts: 341
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:07 pm

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:33 pm

Still sounds like a case of seat/revenue management to me. I would assume that VS would have some indication of the demand for LHR-SYD, and thus not sell as many LHR-HKG seats so that they could make more money by sellling LHR-SYD tickets (if this is where the profit is to be had). And yes, there's always the risk that you turn away a paying passenger for LHR-HKG, but on the flip side of that is if you don't do anything, you lose a higher paying fare for LHR-SYD (and I assume a higher profit). And if those are repeat/frequent travelers on the route, because they have to chose another carrier with availability, you run the risk of losing them to that carrier for future flights (if they are satisfied with service, value, etc.).
Sounds like the better deal for VS would be more frequencies on LHR-HKG, but perhaps the demand isn't there for a LHR-HKG in addition to the LHR-HKG-SYD routing.
319 320 313 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 742 752 763 772 CRJ D9S ERJ EMB L10 M88 M90 SF3 AT4
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1406
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:54 pm

Having just flown the LON/HKG/SYD last week- all that i can say is well done VS. Superb set of flts. Kudos to all the crew! IMHO you are in the top 3 of the world's best airlines. Now if only we can get a T7 on the route ....
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3218
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:03 pm

What about NZ ordering the 777LR (which it has optional rights for) and launching AKL-SYD-LHR as well as MEL-AKL-JFK? NZ are currently negotiating extra slots at LHR.

Food for thought. They could do it first.

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
A340Driver
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:40 pm

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:05 pm

VS happy with SYD, it has picked up and doing much better. Double daily HKG in 2006 with 1 continuing to SYD.
 
A319XFW
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:41 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:09 pm

From reading the posts regarding the VS seat shortage on the LHR-HKG-SYD you all seem to be forgetting something.... VS is getting A380's and could thus increase their seats offered....
 
pixuk
Posts: 305
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:44 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:34 pm

Quoting Blsbls99 (Reply 20):
Sounds like the better deal for VS would be more frequencies on LHR-HKG, but perhaps the demand isn't there for a LHR-HKG in addition to the LHR-HKG-SYD routing.

As has always been the problem, VS have plenty of new routes and increased frequencies on their wishlist, but they're held back by lack of metal. They can't get their A346s fast enough from Airbus. G-VWKD is just about to arrive, which will help, and with another 8 on the way that's going to make it a lot easier for Virgin to sort out HKG.

Pete
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 1619
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:54 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 24):
VS is getting A380's and could thus increase their seats offered....

but not until 2008....
 
A319XFW
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:41 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:07 am

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 26):
but not until 2008....

True... I guess they would want a stop-gap to feed the demand until the 'big one' comes....
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22920
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Virgin And 772LR

Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 22):
What about NZ ordering the 777LR (which it has optional rights for) and launching AKL-SYD-LHR as well as MEL-AKL-JFK? NZ are currently negotiating extra slots at LHR.

If QF has to fly a 200-pax config to get to LHR from Australia, would NZ find it worth the effort to try and do it from AKL, then stopping over in SYD, and competing with the QF folk?

Does flying from Perth or Darwin help any with range/payload? And if it does, can NZ fly onward from their to LHR?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 3AWM, 767333ER, Cory6188, GBerg, georgiabill, Google [Bot], keesje, lightsaber, MrHMSH, Okcflyer, Sooner787, Stevecha, StTim, USPIT10L and 318 guests