ual747-600
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If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:05 pm

With the recent large 777 orders by AC, EK and CX, the pending QR 777 order, what is Airbus going to do? There appears to be a large gap between the A330 and A380 that Airbus doesn't appear to offer a competitive product in any longer. Comments?

UAL747-600
 
boeingbus
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:14 pm

This is a valid question. I am sure this is on their minds in Toulouse. They are losing key A340 customers this year.

But if I was going to guess... They will most likely launch a bigger version of the A350 much sooner than expected. Well, that is what I would do if I was Airbus...

The A340Enhanced was probably proposed to CX but they declined. SO if Qantas does the same... guess what? it's done. Time to move on to the A350. RR would probably be more than happy to engineer a 115K thrust engine.

Cheers,

Ric
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sparkingwave
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:20 pm

Maybe the A340E was kind of like the B767-400. What did Boeing do when major airlines snubbed this aircraft?

I don't think the writing is on the wall for Airbus yet. But if I were them I would be thinking long and hard about a real B787 killer and not the A330 derivative that they're coming up with...

SparkingWave
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ual747-600
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:22 pm

I think we will be seeing the A360 (2 engine-A350/787 technology) sooner rather than later. I think this model and the derivatives will span the 777-300ER to 747-800 and try to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. So they'll have the A350-8/9/X competing with the 787-8/9/10 and killing the 777-200ER with the A360 above.

My .02

UAL747-600

[Edited 2005-12-01 15:53:56]
 
zvezda
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:23 pm

Airbus can be expected to focus on improving the A340 and A350 -- whether they lose the QF order or not.
 
flyinghippo
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:26 pm

I do believe Airbus will/should invest more into the A350. The writing is on the wall for A340s, espeically the 5/600s (Which is sad, they are beautiful planes)

If A350 proves to be what Airbus is saying, then further developments for the A350 should challenge the advanced 777s, which is how Boeing won back that segment (First challenged A343s, then A345/6)
 
MidnightMike
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:28 pm

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 4):
Maybe the A340E was kind of like the B767-400. What did Boeing do when major airlines snubbed this aircraft?

The 767-400 was produced for two airlines, so your example does not work.  Smile
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md90fan
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:31 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 3):
The A340Enhanced was probably proposed to CX but they declined. SO if Qantas does the same... guess what? it's done. Time to move on to the A350. RR would probably be more than happy to engineer a 115K thrust engine.

Which A340E are you talking about? A340-300E or A340-600E (not out yet)
BTW who else or was an A340E costumers besides SAA,JET and Air Mauritius?
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N79969
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:34 pm

I think John Leahy and the German employees of Airbus will be sent to re-education camps for causing France to be disgraced.

*******************

I think Airbus will be in some trouble that they did not anticipate. I think to understand the situation, you have to look back to around the year 2000 or so. Back then Airbus had counted on investing significantly only in the A380 which was to the be flagship of complete line of aircraft. The A320-series/330/340 (including all-sub-variants) were supposed to be long-term revenue streams and sources of cash flow.

Five years later only the A320-series is thriving and the 330 is doing pretty good. Boeing forced their hand and they now have to invest several billion in a (supposedly) all-new A350 which will eliminate the A343 and cannibalize part of the A330 sales. They did not see that coming. In addtion, the 345/346 are not generating sales volumes and cash either. In short, products that were supposed to be money makers for Airbus are on the verge of premature obsolesence. It will be expensive and tricky to tunnel out of the rut in which they have landed.
 
LON-CHI
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:39 pm

Quoting UAL747-600 (Reply 5):
I think we will be seeing the A360 (2 engine-A350/787 technology) sooner rather than later. I think this model and the derivitives will span the 777-300ER to 747-800 and try to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. So they'll have the A350-8/9/X competing with the 787-8/9/10 and killiing the 777-200ER with the A360 above.

That's an interesting scenario. How long of a stretch to the current 330/340/350 fuselage would be needed to match the seating capacities of the 773 & 748? Would it even be possible or would they have to develop a new, wider fuselage?
 
norcal
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:51 pm

Quoting LON-CHI (Reply 11):
That's an interesting scenario. How long of a stretch to the current 330/340/350 fuselage would be needed to match the seating capacities of the 773 & 748? Would it even be possible or would they have to develop a new, wider fuselage?

They would most likely have to develop a new wider fuselage to reach the 747-8 size. It would probably be prudent to do it as well for the 773 size otherwise they will have to add a lot of structural reinforcement to keep that long thinner tube straight and stiff. This is why the the A340-600 is heavier than the 773ER.
 
ORDagent
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:53 pm

Airbus isn't going to go anywhere any time soon. The pendulum swings from A to B and back from time to time. Airbus isn't a fool. They are extremely aware of the competition. Just a year or two ago people were worried about B. The EU would never let A collapse just as the US would do for Boeing. Remember folks that in the 70's Chrysler was bailed out by the US government.
 
Glareskin
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 3):
RR would probably be more than happy to engineer a 115K thrust engine.

Is the GE115 engine for Boeing exclusive?

Furthermore it's obvious that the 777 has the edge at this moment but as N79969 said, the A320 and A330 series are still generating good cash at Airbus. The A340 has proven to be a magnificent aircraft, with moderate to good sales success too, but mostly due to the excessive fuel prices from the moment it's slipping away for the A340.

I'm pretty sure that Airbus with the A350 (/A360?) will design a wonderful aircraft family again and in a few years from now they will take the lead again in this segment that momentarily belongs to Boeing. I think this is the new economical law in this airplane Duopoly....
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zvezda
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:57 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 3):
The A340Enhanced was probably proposed to CX but they declined. SO if Qantas does the same... guess what? it's done. Time to move on to the A350. RR would probably be more than happy to engineer a 115K thrust engine.

The (short-term) problem with the stretching the A350 any further is the same problem that is keeping Boeing from offering the B787-10X right now: the availability of engines with enough thrust. 115K is not in the cards. The immediate challenge is 80-85K. That would allow the B787-10X that EK want and would allow a further stretch of the A350 as well.

Quoting LON-CHI (Reply 11):
How long of a stretch to the current 330/340/350 fuselage would be needed to match the seating capacities of the 773 & 748? Would it even be possible or would they have to develop a new, wider fuselage?

No, the A340-600 is the maximum length for that fuselage. The A350 could be stretched to the same length if suitable engines were available. To get to the capacity of the B777-300 would require a wider fuselage.

If I were Airbus, I would not plan on trying to stretch the A350 to the length of the A340-600. The extreme length/width ratio is one of the main reasons why the A340 is not quite competitive with the B777. Instead, I would build an all-new large twin with 10 abreast seating on one deck to replace the A340 and fill the gap between the A350 and A380.
 
N79969
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:29 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15):
Instead, I would build an all-new large twin with 10 abreast seating on one deck to replace the A340 and fill the gap between the A350 and A380.

I think this is what ultimately will occur. Whatever replaces the A340 eventually will probably look a lot like the B777 with similarly powerful engines and perhaps greater payload/range capability. It will take time though.
 
Zeus419
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:32 am

Zvezda wrote:-

>>If I were Airbus, I would not plan on trying to stretch the A350 to the length of the A340-600. The extreme length/width ratio is one of the main reasons why the A340 is not quite competitive with the B777. Instead, I would build an all-new large twin with 10 abreast seating on one deck to replace the A340 and fill the gap between the A350 and A380<<

Yep -- I think a super-stretched A350 would be a bad idea. Moreover, if we're talking about new fuselages (and Airbus sooner or later will surely need to bite this bullet), then I think they should go much further, and move beyond today's concept of simply a bigger B777-type aerodynamic & structural configuration, and go for something truly innovative such as V-tail, or blended wing, all-CFRP config etc., to achieve a total step-change in fuel efficiency and operating economics.

[Edited 2005-12-01 16:34:52]
 
NYC777
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:33 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 16):
I think this is what ultimately will occur. Whatever replaces the A340 eventually will probably look a lot like the B777 with similarly powerful engines and perhaps greater payload/range capability. It will take time though.

True but as lot of resources. Tehy ahve their hands full with the A380, A350 and the A400M. No doubt they'll use more subsidies to bail them out of the mess that they're in    .

By focusing on the aviation version of penis envy (the A380)    Airbus essentially ignored the key markets that is being exploited by the 777/787 combo and the fiascos with A350/A340 is evidence of that.

[Edited 2005-12-01 16:49:12]
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ORDagent
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:34 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 16):
10 abreast seating on one deck

I don't think that will happen. Airbus has been touting the better pax preference for the 8 abreast seating.
 
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zeke
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:39 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 3):
RR would probably be more than happy to engineer a 115K thrust engine.

AFAIK its called a Trent 8107, already been designed and built, the base engine for the Trent 900.
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NYC777
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:47 am

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 19):
Airbus has been touting the better pax preference for the 8 abreast seating.

Yeah and they've been touting 4 engines 4 long haul. We see how that strategy played out!
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LON-CHI
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:56 am

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 19):
I don't think that will happen. Airbus has been touting the better pax preference for the 8 abreast seating.

If Airbus stuck to 8 abreast max (on a single deck), then they would never be able to match/exceed the 773 seating capacity, correct?
 
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RayChuang
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:57 am

I think QF will buy the 777 for one reason: it's available now with a proven record of long-range flying (even with the 777-200LR).

The A350 is still more or less a paper airplane until they can prove the plane can meet its 7,500 to 8,000 nm still-air range guarantees.
 
Glareskin
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:57 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 21):
Yeah and they've been touting 4 engines 4 long haul. We see how that strategy played out!


Considering the fact that they've won all the key accounts in the VLA market where the 777 is enjoying victory in the mid-segment at the moment not too bad I would say..... 4 eninges 4 VLA is still valid!
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NYC777
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:10 am

Well duh, you would need 4 engines on a A380/747 sized aircraft. I never talked about the 450+ seat category and even then that category is going to be a small portion of the entire airliner market for the forseeable future. The point being that for the markets under 400 seats the 4 engine 4 long haul strategy has not won and Airbus is paying the price for it. The day they start producing an engine witha 150k - 165k thrust is when you can possibly see a two engine VLA but that market is going to be extremely thin.

Airbus, if they want to recapture the market, should start looking at all new designs that include an all composite fuselage and that focuses on the 200-400 seat market. And forget the A350.

[Edited 2005-12-01 17:23:31]
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aeropiggot
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:18 am

Quote:
Glareshin

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astuteman
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:19 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 10):
It will be expensive and tricky to tunnel out of the rut in which they have landed.

No doubt, but it might be worth considering that the time that most people were being critical of Boeing, some 4-8 years ago, was actually the time when they put the foundations in place for today's (and tomorrow's) performance.
Whilst not suggesting that Airbus are doing this right now, it may be that, whilst the next 2 years will hurt in the A340/777 segment (and possibly A350/787 where multi class orders are swayed by the 787) "the wake-up call" will be well heeded in the next 2 years, and a much better, meaner Airbus will emerge.

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 14):
Furthermore it's obvious that the 777 has the edge at this moment but as N79969 said, the A320 and A330 series are still generating good cash at Airbus.

I'd venture to suggest that the A380 will also generate substantial "cash" in the 2007 - 2010 period even though it won't reach break-even in that time frame (remember, the R+D money is spent..). Airbus will have a lot of cash for 3-4 years yet because of the big order backlog, and increasing throughput. Resources will be the bottleneck.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15):
If I were Airbus, I would not plan on trying to stretch the A350 to the length of the A340-600. The extreme length/width ratio is one of the main reasons why the A340 is not quite competitive with the B777

Would you say the same about the 787-10x, or are you going to tell me it's different, because it's composite?
I agree, though, whatever the material, such a long aspect ratio for the fuse is not optimum. (I think you asked me once why I don't (technically) like the A346. That was the reason)
 
Toulouse
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 21):
Yeah and they've been touting 4 engines 4 long haul.

Was this not a Virgin Atlantic slogan?
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ikramerica
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:24 am

Quoting Pixuk (Reply 2):
Talk about baiting an A vs B war...

Only if you want it to be. He's asking how Airbus will respond? Valid question.

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 7):
The writing is on the wall for A340s, espeically the 5/600s (Which is sad, they are beautiful planes)

Yes, the writing has been on the wall ever since the two aircraft underwhelmed their launch customers.

As for looks, I think the 345 is well proportioned, but the 346? Come now, it is a weird looking bird, even more cigar tube than the 773. Not exactly a beauty, though it is a marvel of engineering to stretch it that much (at a great expense of weight).

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 13):
Airbus isn't going to go anywhere any time soon.

Again, this isn't an "Airbus is dead" thread but a "how will Airbus respond since the A340 revisions don't seem to be swaying even launch customers" thread. Valid question.

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 19):
I don't think that will happen. Airbus has been touting the better pax preference for the 8 abreast seating.

Tell that to all the pax who will be flying the A380. 3/5ths of the seats will be on 10 abreast (or 11) deck...

density trumps "preference" even at Airbus.

Quoting LON-CHI (Reply 22):
If Airbus stuck to 8 abreast max (on a single deck), then they would never be able to match/exceed the 773 seating capacity, correct?

Exactly. They need a NEW airframe, or they must concede the 380-480 seat market and focus strongly on a A350-1000 that fits above the 772ER and below the 773ER (340 seat), while aiming the 359 squarely at the 772- sized market (290 seat) and the 358 (250 seat). Then revise the A330 for the future as the A350-200, A350-300 and A350-500 (replacing the A306, 332 and 333) with efficient medium haul products that Boeing can't match.

And focus on a new twin with a 757 replacement with the same sort of range as the A330 as an option.

And they can keep building the A340 in case existing customers want it, even if it's only a few frames a year. After all, that's a potential sale Boeing won't get.

Remember, just as Boeing said about the VLA being limited, so is the 250-450 seat market when COMPARED TO the 125-250 seat market. The cash is in the middle for years to come. Airbus has bragging rights with the 380, and airlines have already shown that commonality means SQUAT as they are buying the A380 and 773ER without a blink, so why not just concede that market for a while until the future brings lighter materials and more powerful engines for Airbus to do it right?
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NYC777
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:25 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 29):
Was this not a Virgin Atlantic slogan?

I dunno no but but many people on this board have said that they've seen it on Airbus advertisements and that Virgin picked up on it for marketing purposes to their customers.
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boeingbus
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:38 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 27):
I'd venture to suggest that the A380 will also generate substantial "cash" in the 2007 - 2010 period even though it won't reach break-even in that time frame (remember, the R+D money is spent..). Airbus will have a lot of cash for 3-4 years yet because of the big order backlog, and increasing throughput. Resources will be the bottleneck.

I tend to agree with you but lets hope for Airbus' sake that they get new A380 orders next year. The 747 beat them in orders this year and that is just miserable for that new program.

I'm still hesitant to say that this bird will make some cash for Airbus. I think its a sound airplane but it's not yet a 'given' that it will. Just not yet at least.

But it definitely serves Airbus goal to offer a full range of products. That will absolutely generate additional cash flow. Look at Kingfisher and how they are building a new airline around one manufacturer. Amazing.
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redflyer
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:42 am

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 4):
But if I were them I would be thinking long and hard about a real B787 killer and not the A330 derivative

The 350 will hold its own against the 787. What Airbus needs, and what I think they'll come out with in order to regain the upperhand against Boeing, is a real 777/747 killer. If they design and build it from scratch and incorporate improvements over the 777 it will trump the Boeing lineup. And it will plug the gap in their existing product lineup; between the 346 and the 380.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 27):
"the wake-up call" will be well heeded in the next 2 years, and a much better, meaner Airbus will emerge.

Don't you just love competition!?

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 29):
Was this not a Virgin Atlantic slogan?



Quoting NYC777 (Reply 31):
I dunno no but but many people on this board have said that they've seen it on Airbus advertisements and that Virgin picked up on it for marketing purposes to their customers.

There was a thread on this a couple of months ago and some members managed to dig back and locate ads from years ago that showed the slogan found its genesis in Toulouse.
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A319XFW
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:51 am

If what I've heard regarding composite fuses, is that built now they are still mostly designed using metal design techniques.
I'd wait another few (read 10) years until we will see a 'real' composite fuselage. This would then probably be for a 777, 340, 300 or whatever replacement. Then the cards will be re-shuffled... But the good thing about this industry is that they get re-shuffled everytime someone brings out a new aircraft!
 
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N328KF
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:56 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 35):
If what I've heard regarding composite fuses, is that built now they are still mostly designed using metal design techniques.
I'd wait another few (read 10) years until we will see a 'real' composite fuselage. This would then probably be for a 777, 340, 300 or whatever replacement. Then the cards will be re-shuffled... But the good thing about this industry is that they get re-shuffled everytime someone brings out a new aircraft!

Since you apparently don't have any idea what you're talking about...

The 787 is constructed using radically different techniques. Whereas existing airframes are constructed with ribs and sheet metal laid on top, the 787 is constructed by rolling composite "tape" around a tube, baking the tape, and then removing the tube from the inside.

Thus the 787 is the "real" composite fuselage you are referring to.

[Edited 2005-12-01 18:01:05]
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Boogyjay
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:56 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 34):
he slogan found its genesis in Toulouse

Nope. In Farnborough. Yet it was on an Airbus ad.
 
PlaneDane
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:59 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 35):
If what I've heard regarding composite fuses, is that built now they are still mostly designed using metal design techniques.

How so, A319XFW? I was under the impression that the design technique used for the B787 is completely different and even revolutionary.

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 35):
I'd wait another few (read 10) years until we will see a 'real' composite fuselage.

Again, I think that the B787 will have as real of a composite fuselage as can be imagined. The next achievement Boeing is reaching for is to make a completely one-piece composite fuselage and they aren't far off from doing that.

Were you actually referring to the A400M when you made your statements? If so, then I can agree with you.
 
N60659
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:08 am

Quoting UAL747-600 (Thread starter):
With the recent large 777 orders by AC, EK and CX, the pending QR 777 order, what is Airbus going to do? There appears to be a large gap between the A330 and A380 that Airbus doesn't appear to offer a competitive product in any longer. Comments?


  • The numero uno priority for Airbus now should be ensuring that the A380's induction into the various fleets be as seamless and flawless as possible. Airbus has endured a period of falling short on performance and delivery guarantees. In today's world, it becomes imperative to deliver on promises. This fact is sharply contrasted by Boeing/GE delivering better than promised performance on the 773ER.
  • After racking up a number of A350 commitments, Airbus should concentrate on delivering on promises. The 787 is reported to be within 1-2% of promised weight. Airbus needs to be aiming for similar (if not better) targets during corresponding milestones during the development of the A350.
  • The 222in fuselage diameter dimension has held Airbus in good stead for a while. However, it may now be at the end of it's usefulness. Both long range variants of the 777 and the 748 utilize the area above the main cabin for crew/passenger rest areas. Airbus needs to be able to match this in future products so as not to take away from revenue generating space in either the main cabin or below deck areas.
  • For future development, Airbus needs to concentrate more on minimizing cost of operation as opposed to increasing potential revenue (more seats) for their customers, i.e., improving aerodynamic efficiency. The best possible way to achieve this is to start with a clean-sheet design, especially for any future widebody endeavors.
  • The narrow-body line seems to be doing extremely well. However in the not-too-distant-future Boeing will replace the 737 with a Y1 design. Airbus needs to be wary of this and be prepared to react accordingly, i.e., not another "we can counter the 7E7 with a re-engined A330" type reaction.


Just my 2 cents.

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astuteman
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:09 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 39):
The next achievement Boeing is reaching for is to make a completely one-piece composite fuselage and they aren't far off from doing that.

I hope not. That would be a real step backwards from a buildability point of view (not to mention transportability). You want exactly what the 787 gives you now - 3 sections, with nice big open ends that make it nice + easy to slide everything inside as pre-assembled modules (like we do on the subs  Wink).
Make a one piece, and you're going in through the doors again, just like the good old DC3.....
AFAIK, the 787 is just right, thank you very much  Smile

Anyway, back to Airbus.........
 
zvezda
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:17 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 42):
I hope not. That would be a real step backwards from a buildability point of view (not to mention transportability). You want exactly what the 787 gives you now - 3 sections, with nice big open ends that make it nice + easy to slide everything inside as pre-assembled modules (like we do on the subs Wink).
Make a one piece, and you're going in through the doors again, just like the good old DC3.....
AFAIK, the 787 is just right, thank you very much

I believe the B787 is made from 8 fuselage sections, not 3. I think the objective for Y1 is to reduce the number of fuselage sections to 3, not to 1.
 
astuteman
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:25 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 43):
I believe the B787 is made from 8 fuselage sections, not 3. I think the objective for Y1 is to reduce the number of fuselage sections to 3, not to 1.

Excellent!  Smile
Thanks very much for the information, Zvezda. Much appreciated
I guess 3 sections would be my ideal, if I was the 787 Production Engineer.
 
777wt
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:25 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 14):
Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 3):
RR would probably be more than happy to engineer a 115K thrust engine.

Is the GE115 engine for Boeing exclusive?

The GE90-115B is the engine exclusivily for the Boeing 777-300ER.

Boeing and GE has a contract that GE provides an amount of investment into Boeing for the R&D of the 777 when Boeing selected GE for using their engines on the 777-300ER over RR, plus GE achieved a higher than excepted and certified thrust when doing a all out test.

Since the development of the GE90-115B, modifications have been done and applied to all current GE90's family of engines to improve reliability (longer overhauls) and increase the thrust by 15K!

CO and GE signed a maintenance contract which GE will overhaul the GE90's on CO's 777 fleet with the upgraded core (a retro fit kit) as they come in for a overhaul or rebuild.
 
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CCA
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:43 am

A good story from the Australian regarding the Boeing - Airbus battle.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au.../0,5744,17428629%255E23349,00.html
P1 in A330, A340, A346, B742, B744, B748.
 
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N328KF
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:47 am

Quoting 777WT (Reply 45):
The GE90-115B is the engine exclusivily for the Boeing 777-300ER.

Actually, we know that the 777-200LR/-300ER are only available with the GE90-110B/-115B. However, perhaps the poster was asking (and what I would like to know) is if the exclusivity was bi-directional. That is, can GE use these models on other civil aircraft? (I'm sure if GE wanted to use them on military aircraft, they could.)
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
PlaneDane
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:54 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 44):
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 43):
I believe the B787 is made from 8 fuselage sections, not 3. I think the objective for Y1 is to reduce the number of fuselage sections to 3, not to 1.

Excellent!
Thanks very much for the information, Zvezda. Much appreciated
I guess 3 sections would be my ideal, if I was the 787 Production Engineer.

Thanks, Astuteman and Zvezda. I learned something new here!
 
Scorpio
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:08 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 36):
I suspect, Scorpio, that Jwenting was expressing the same sort of cynicism that the likes of you and I feel when we anticipate this kind of response on a thread like this.

This is Jwenting we're talking about. Trust me on this one: he means it.
 
astuteman
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:10 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 48):
Thanks, Astuteman and Zvezda. I learned something new here!

My pleasure, PlaneDane. And here's me who only know how to build subs, too!  Wink
 
N60659
Posts: 639
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:24 pm

RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 50):
Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 48):
Thanks, Astuteman and Zvezda. I learned something new here!

My pleasure, PlaneDane. And here's me who only know how to build subs, too!

There was a very informative article on the integration of the 787 a few months ago:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...nology/2002486348_787global11.html

-N60659
Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
 
A319XFW
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:48 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 39):
Were you actually referring to the A400M when you made your statements? If so, then I can agree with you.

That too, but I was actually referring to the 787 still... Obviously the design techniques are new, but it's still a first shot at it so in the future the techniques will improve and get more efficient. I would say the VTP of the A380 techniques have evolved since the A300.....
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:55 am

Quoting N60659 (Reply 41):
The numero uno priority for Airbus now should be ensuring that the A380's induction into the various fleets be as seamless and flawless as possible. Airbus has endured a period of falling short on performance and delivery guarantees. In today's world, it becomes imperative to deliver on promises. This fact is sharply contrasted by Boeing/GE delivering better than promised performance on the 773ER.

After racking up a number of A350 commitments, Airbus should concentrate on delivering on promises. The 787 is reported to be within 1-2% of promised weight. Airbus needs to be aiming for similar (if not better) targets during corresponding milestones during the development of the A350.

I completely agree. I think Airbus has been preoccupied with making headlines and getting ahead of Boeing to the point of obesession. If you read Noel Foregard's recent interviews and John Leahy's less recent remarks, I think the pattern is visible. Now that I think of it, their oversized, near ubiquitous (and annoying) ads touting the A350 as the "worlds most advanced twin" further fuel my impression that beating Boeing is priority number 1 with issues such as profitability and so on falling by the wayside.

In the process, they have screwed up some of the important details as evidenced by Emriates recent grumbling about the company.

I think a shakeup at Airbus is on the horizon. The EADS board would be wise in my view if they get rid of Foregard at the next opportunity for a number of reasons. He does not possess the clear-eyed leadership needed to act in the CEO role. He is overly political and conniving.

[Edited 2005-12-01 20:07:32]
 
Ken777
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:56 am

If QF does go with Boeing on the 777 (and 787) then Airbus might start looking at a clean sheet of paper to deliver a better challenger - especially after CX went with the 777.

Airbus faces a challenge if they go clean sheet for a 360. As soon as they are committed to the program (along with the 350 in the works and the 380 needing any initial fleet kinks ironed out) Boeing can announce Y1 using 787 technology and including options to roll certain 737NG orders into Y1 orders. Boeing could start with a big order from WN - and AA adding a bit. This would put Airbus in the undesirable position of spreading development resources even thinner as they work on a 32E, 350 and 360 - all while EK is waiving a RFP for 50 389s.

While I would like to see Airbus go with the 360 I believe to do so before the 350 is flying leaves Airbus' @ss sitting high in the air for Boeing tao take shots at. Waiting too long, however, lets Boeing go with the Y1 at their leisure and starting on Y3 in the back rooms.

This is definitely one of the most interesting industries to watch. Only Apple comes up with anything as interesting.
 
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N328KF
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RE: If Qantas Goes 777 What Will Airbus Do?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:01 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 52):
That too, but I was actually referring to the 787 still... Obviously the design techniques are new, but it's still a first shot at it so in the future the techniques will improve and get more efficient. I would say the VTP of the A380 techniques have evolved since the A300....

It's a first shot at it in this industry, perhaps, but it's not Boeing's first composite aircraft. It is, however, their first composite civil aircraft, and their first one this large.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt

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