jumbojet
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DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:22 pm

Call me a closet seat mapper checker outer, but in looking at the DL JFK to FRA route which is flown on a 763, seating 204 persons, the flights are almost always, if not all the time sold out. Especially the month of December load factors are very high. Knowing that the holiday travel back to Frankfurt is mostly the reason for this, even loads in Jan and Feb are already high. Why not change this flight to a 777 (seating 268) or at least ad another 763? I know you just can't pop 777's out of thin air but look at ATL to FRA, they got two daily flights to FRA and they both do rather well. I think the NYC to FRA market can handle it. What do you think?

steve
 
Bicoastal
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:49 pm

Try answering your own question. Where does DL have an extra 777 sitting around that isn't already flying high capacity/high yielding routes just as packed as JFK-Frankfurt? I doubt you'll find one.

Ah, yes, life is a series of tough choices.
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ContinentalEWR
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:54 pm

Delta has 8 777's in its fleet. That's it. And there is no chance they will get any more for a while. These planes are assigned to routes where the airline makes money, or there is demand to warrant a large aircraft. They will use the 777 on high density routes (Ireland, Italy) in Summer time, and where they have Sky Team partners.

2 of the 777's are dedicated to ATL-NRT.

JFK-FRA is not a premier route for DL any longer. They don't have a hub there and there is no connecting traffic.
 
trevd
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:51 am

Quoting JumboJet (Thread starter):
Call me a closet seat mapper checker outer, but in looking at the DL JFK to FRA route which is flown on a 763, seating 204 persons, the flights are almost always, if not all the time sold out. Especially the month of December load factors are very high. Knowing that the holiday travel back to Frankfurt is mostly the reason for this, even loads in Jan and Feb are already high. Why not change this flight to a 777 (seating 268) or at least ad another 763? I know you just can't pop 777's out of thin air but look at ATL to FRA, they got two daily flights to FRA and they both do rather well. I think the NYC to FRA market can handle it. What do you think?

steve

The route may well be able to justify the higher loads, but the yield profile (average revenue) is probably terrible. Fares from the NE US ( NY, Boston, EWR, etc...) have always been very low. So if you have the incremental capacity, it's not advantageous to deploy it where your profit earning potential is so limited...

Trev
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:03 am

Yeah, too many other places where a 777 is a good choice AND focus on ATL for the 777 for mx reasons. I'm surprised CVG is keeping the 777 CVG-CDG.

Besides if the 763 is making money on it, keep it! Get the new interior on all the 763-int'l a/c and DL will be in good shape on the route!
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STT757
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:12 am

Quoting JumboJet (Thread starter):
DL JFK to FRA route which is flown on a 763, seating 204 persons, the flights are almost always, if not all the time sold out

As mentioned JFK-FRA is not a major route for DL anymore, keep in mind that AA has tried JFK-FRA on a couple different occasions over the past 10-15 years and have never been able to make it a profitable endeavor. There might be fannies in the seats but it does not mean they are making money on them, big misconception load factors "always" = profit.
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ikramerica
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:45 am

EWR-FRA is nice and full on the CO 772, so if you want to fly a 772 to FRA, try that one.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
9V-SPF
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:53 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
EWR-FRA is nice and full on the CO 772, so if you want to fly a 772 to FRA, try that one.

It´s a 764 during the winter. I agree that CO should be preferred on the FRA-NYC route...nicer airplane, better connections at EWR, avoiding JFK immigration...
 
ikramerica
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:57 am

Quoting 9V-SPF (Reply 7):
It´s a 764 during the winter.

Hmm. Maybe the airlines know something about the loads that Jumbo doesn't...

Though COs 764 is pretty much the same as their 777 inside, better seating in some cases.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
incitatus
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:06 am

Quoting JumboJet (Thread starter):
or at least ad another 763?

Delta has no large planes available to increase flying in prime international business markets because the large planes are consumed flying tourists to Venice and Orlando. Big grin
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OOer
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:50 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 9):
Delta has no large planes available to increase flying in prime international business markets because the large planes are consumed flying tourists to Venice and Orlando.

Yes in the summer there are alot of tourists, but remember there are also 2 US military bases within 100 miles of VCE. The military usually pays the mid to higher fares on flights...which is an excellent money maker for the airlines. There are also very many business travelers that fly from VCE to JFK because of the very strong economy the 'Veneto' region has. So its not all leisure travel...not even close to what it is on the Florida routes!!!
 
ARGinLON
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:03 am

Quoting TrevD (Reply 3):
The route may well be able to justify the higher loads, but the yield profile (average revenue) is probably terrible. Fares from the NE US ( NY, Boston, EWR, etc...) have always been very low. So if you have the incremental capacity, it's not advantageous to deploy it where your profit earning potential is so limited...

The yields from Germany to the U.S. in economy class are a disaster. Although in other European countries (UK & France) economy fares are very low as well, business class yields are high and compensate such low fares. In Germany, economy is very low and business class is just average.

In addition to this, all the new DL flights to Germany scheduled for next year (plus competition from CO) will make the yields ever worse.
 
Avianca
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:23 am

the flights maybe mostly full, but do not forget, DL is always the cheapest option from and to JFK on that route, even much more cheaper than choosing a flight via another hub.

so I do not see to increase the flight to 777
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aa777jr
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:07 am

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 2):
2 of the 777's are dedicated to ATL-NRT.

Will someone post all the 777 routes that DL uses its 8 frames on.

Is CVG-CDG, 1 a/c?

Regards.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
panamair
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:11 am

JFK-FRA is usually only packed in the back. The J cabin, depending on seasons and days of week are not that easy to fill as there is very stiff competition on the route from the LH/UA juggernaut. I usually use miles or certificates to upgrade on DL transatlantic, and JFK-FRA and JFK-AMS are usually the two easiest routes out of JFK on DL to upgrade on. That should tell you something....
 
remymartin11
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:38 am

Why would anyone want to fly DL JFK-FRA when Lufthansa has such a superior product. Grinstein and his minions are CLUELESS.
 
rwsea
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:41 am

Quoting Aa777jr (Reply 13):
Will someone post all the 777 routes that DL uses its 8 frames on.

ATL-LGW
ATL-CDG
ATL-FRA
ATL-NRT
ATL-TLV*
ATL-LAX

CVG-CDG

*Slated to begin in March 2005.

All flights use only one plane, except ATL-NRT which currently requires two planes. ATL-TLV will be rotated through NRT-ATL-TLV-ATL-NRT in order to increase utilization and only require 3 planes for the route.

This means one of the European routes will have to lose a 777 frequency. I suppose that when the 764's come online (with BizE), this won't be much of an issue. Maybe DL will try ATL-LGW with the 764.
 
rwsea
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:42 am

Quoting Remymartin11 (Reply 15):
Why would anyone want to fly DL JFK-FRA when Lufthansa has such a superior product. Grinstein and his minions are CLUELESS.

People would want to fly DL because the NYC area has a high percentage of DL-loyal flyers and as well as the connecting opportunities at JFK.

That said, if I were flying the route, I'd probably pick Singapore Air.
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:54 am

Quoting OOer (Reply 10):
Yes in the summer there are alot of tourists, but remember there are also 2 US military bases within 100 miles of VCE. The military usually pays the mid to higher fares on flights...which is an excellent money maker for the airlines. There are also very many business travelers that fly from VCE to JFK because of the very strong economy the 'Veneto' region has. So its not all leisure travel.

Military traffic often pays pre-agreed rates which are profitable, but do not produce heavy margins. The reason Venice is a money maker is because the type of tourist that goes to Venice is usually high-income, and many will splurge to fly in the premium cabins. In addition, many Italy tour groups start or end in Venice, which helps fill the Y cabin. Similar situation with Nice.
a.
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:57 am

A couple of things to consider:

- DL simply does not have an extra 777 to dedicate to the JFK-FRA route.

-FRA is Star Alliance territory - DL is a SkyTeam member.

-LH has multiple frequencies on the JFK-FRA route offerning pax more choice (and probably better service).

-SQ has a daily 744 on the JFK-FRA route (which continues to SIN). SQ does well with the JFK-FRA segment, so well, in fact, that SQ launched the nonstop NYC-SIN flight from EWR so that it could keep the JFK-FRA-SIN service in place.

-CO flies either a 777 or 764 on its EWR-FRA service....but CO has the advantage of its very powerful EWR hub on its side, plus remember that the EWR-FRA flight is CO's only flight to FRA.....so the EWR-FRA segment attracts a higher percentage of connecting pax including a good number that originate at IAH. (DL has service to FRA from its other hubs as well as its JFK gateway).
 
whitehatter
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:07 am

Now DL is flying the 764 transatlantically it should mean services like JFK-FRA gets the bigger aircraft.

It will be interesting to see how customer acceptance pans out, as CO regulars I know often tell me that their 764 international product is every bit as good as the 772ER. And there is more money to be made international flying.

The only drawback will be whether the 764 can carry any freight on the route. The LD3 and weights issues would come into play as the 764 is a people carrier rather than a mixed operation jet like the much more capable 772ER.
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Sabena332
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:11 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 16):
ATL-LGW
ATL-CDG
ATL-FRA
ATL-NRT
ATL-TLV*
ATL-LAX

CVG-CDG

*Slated to begin in March 2005.

All flights use only one plane, except ATL-NRT which currently requires two planes. ATL-TLV will be rotated through NRT-ATL-TLV-ATL-NRT in order to increase utilization and only require 3 planes for the route.

This means one of the European routes will have to lose a 777 frequency. I suppose that when the 764's come online (with BizE), this won't be much of an issue. Maybe DL will try ATL-LGW with the 764.

That was a hell of a reply! Great information, thanks a lot for that!

Patrick
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panamair
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:45 am

Quoting Remymartin11 (Reply 15):
Why would anyone want to fly DL JFK-FRA when Lufthansa has such a superior product. Grinstein and his minions are CLUELESS.

Umm, because if you get on the 'wrong' LH a/c between JFK and FRA, you will be stuck in an old Business Class seat that is much worse than DL's BusinessElite seat, or be crammed in just-as-horrible, if not worse Y seats in the back (LH405/404 747-400). And no, there is no PTV in Y on all of the LH 744s either....
 
SESGDL
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:55 am

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 2):
JFK-FRA is not a premier route for DL any longer. They don't have a hub there and there is no connecting traffic.

DL pretty much calls JFK a hub. In various press releases they call it "Delta's JFK hub," also what are you talking about with no connecting traffic?

From JFK DL serves: SEA, SFO, LAX, LAS, SLC, SAT, AUS, STL, ORD, IND, CVG, CMH, SDF, BNA, ATL, MLB, JAX, MCO, TPA, FLL, PBI, MIA, CLT, RDU, ORF, DCA, IAD, BWI, PIT, BOS, and YYZ. They also serve MEX, NAS, STI, SDQ, and SJU in the Caribbean and Mexico. I'd consider that connecting traffic.

Jeremy
 
jumbojet
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:03 am

I think people think that what makes the foreign carriers so attractive, especially in Y class is the fact that you get free beer. I must admit, I loved this little amenity when I flew Virgin Atlantic JFK to LHR. Other then that, there wasn't anything different between that and a Delta coach flight over the pond. And seriously, how much free beer do you think you will drink on one of these flights? Its not like an open bar at your favorite watering hole. And of course, there's waiting for the F/A's to come around and serve you. BLAH, I'll take Delta and their F/A's any day of the week.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:14 am

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 24):
I think people think that what makes the foreign carriers so attractive, especially in Y class is the fact that you get free beer.

You know, there is a clever advertising campaign hiding in this statement.  Smile
 
jumbojet
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:36 am

I for one love beer, especially when its free, but lets be honest, how many beers can an individual drink on an approximate 7 to 8 hour journey? Is it worth the $100.00 more you will spend to fly JFK to FRA on Lufthansa?
 
b6sea
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:50 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 23):
DL pretty much calls JFK a hub. In various press releases they call it "Delta's JFK hub," also what are you talking about with no connecting traffic?

From JFK DL serves: SEA, SFO, LAX, LAS, SLC, SAT, AUS, STL, ORD, IND, CVG, CMH, SDF, BNA, ATL, MLB, JAX, MCO, TPA, FLL, PBI, MIA, CLT, RDU, ORF, DCA, IAD, BWI, PIT, BOS, and YYZ. They also serve MEX, NAS, STI, SDQ, and SJU in the Caribbean and Mexico. I'd consider that connecting traffic.

Jeremy

... I think he was talking about the former FRA hub that they inherited from Pan Am (I think?)... Also most of that traffic to and from JFK is O/D and not connecting. If you look for fares on DL from most of those west coast cities the fares from ATL are usually cheaper and I think DL likes to fill the JFK routes with New Yorkers/Business people willing to pay higher fares rather than tourists going to Europe for a week or two who dont much care if they have to connect in ATL (JFK couldnt be much fun to connect in when flying DL).

-Chans
 
aa777jr
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:52 am

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 21):
Quoting RwSEA (Reply 16):
ATL-LGW
ATL-CDG
ATL-FRA
ATL-NRT
ATL-TLV*
ATL-LAX

CVG-CDG

*Slated to begin in March 2005.

All flights use only one plane, except ATL-NRT which currently requires two planes. ATL-TLV will be rotated through NRT-ATL-TLV-ATL-NRT in order to increase utilization and only require 3 planes for the route.

This means one of the European routes will have to lose a 777 frequency. I suppose that when the 764's come online (with BizE), this won't be much of an issue. Maybe DL will try ATL-LGW with the 764.

That was a hell of a reply! Great information, thanks a lot for that!

Patrick

 checkmark 

Agreed.

Thanks alot.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
ikramerica
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:54 am

well considering the US carriers used to offer free drinks but stopped for the most part, they didn't see the value in it. they didn't see Y customers fleeing to other airlines for the beer. most have added capacity to europe and are filling those planes despite not offering free beer or bloody marys or what have you. and of course it's an added revenue stream to charge for it...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
incitatus
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:37 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
Military traffic often pays pre-agreed rates which are profitable, but do not produce heavy margins. The reason Venice is a money maker is because the type of tourist that goes to Venice is usually high-income, and many will splurge to fly in the premium cabins.

Yes but...
Only the uninformed premium tourist would choose to fly XXX-ATL-VCE on Delta as opposed to XXX-LON-VCE on BA or XXX-CDG-VCE on AF or even XXX-EWR-MXP plus fast car on CO. Putting more flights to Venice is a total waste and shows that Delta is dazed and confused.
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OOer
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:33 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
Military traffic often pays pre-agreed rates which are profitable, but do not produce heavy margins.

Yes they do have pre-agreed rates. But I can telly you for a fact that those fares are higher end coach class fares!!! As they are unrestricted fares!!! So DL is making much more money on these fares compared to deeply discounted fares!!!!

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 30):
Yes but...
Only the uninformed premium tourist would choose to fly XXX-ATL-VCE on Delta as opposed to XXX-LON-VCE on BA or XXX-CDG-VCE on AF or even XXX-EWR-MXP plus fast car on CO. Putting more flights to Venice is a total waste and shows that Delta is dazed and confused.

Putting more flights to VCE is a complete waste? I'll bet you they will make more money than several other international destinations DL serves. There is a reason that VCE airport has recently expanded the passenger terminal and that traffic there has increase an average of 15% each year for the past 3 years!!!!

There are many high-end tourists that fly into VCE as it is the only major airport in that part of the country( MXP being 3 hours drive if there are no traffic problems ). There are MANY business travelers that fly to the US from there. Padova(30 miles from VCE) is the industrial hub for the region, Vicenza(50 miles from VCE) is worlds leader of gold jewelry and is the location of SETAF which is a major army installation, Verona(75 miles from VCE) also has a small airforce base, Aviano(60 miles from VCE) is the site of a major airforce base. So throw in the business travelers and the military on this route...and you got yourself a moneymaker!!!!
 
sllevin
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:44 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 30):
Only the uninformed premium tourist would choose to fly XXX-ATL-VCE on Delta as opposed to XXX-LON-VCE on BA or XXX-CDG-VCE on AF or even XXX-EWR-MXP plus fast car on CO.

Flying through CDG or LON only works if you're in a gateway city. There are lots of premium travelers in the world in cities that don't have AF or BA service directly.

We won't even get into the craziness that is connecting at CDG... Oy!

Steve
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:55 pm

Does DL still fly ATL-MCO with a 777? I always thought that one was a bit ridiculous... A wise man one told me: "You can fill up anything going to MCO, but it doesn't mean it's making money."

Me thinks DL should quit flying wide-bodys around the Southeast (FLL, JAX, MCO, MSY, etc.) to ATL and put them in Int'l markets.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
ARGinLON
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:31 pm

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 33):
Does DL still fly ATL-MCO with a 777? I always thought that one was a bit ridiculous... A wise man one told me: "You can fill up anything going to MCO, but it doesn't mean it's making money."

Me thinks DL should quit flying wide-bodys around the Southeast (FLL, JAX, MCO, MSY, etc.) to ATL and put them in Int'l markets.

If they do, it's only a 772 turning around before going back to CDG/LGW or NRT.
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:16 pm

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 33):
Does DL still fly ATL-MCO with a 777? I always thought that one was a bit ridiculous... A wise man one told me: "You can fill up anything going to MCO, but it doesn't mean it's making money."

Me thinks DL should quit flying wide-bodys around the Southeast (FLL, JAX, MCO, MSY, etc.) to ATL and put them in Int'l markets.

But its not that simple, the 777s and some 763ERs doing the ATL-Florida turns were inbetween longhaul flights and would otherwise be sitting idle at ATL for hours, thus its good aircraft utilization to send them out on the high demand ATL-FLorida routes. Concerning the 777s on ATL-MCO, this aircraft was usually the backup aircraft for the ATL-NRT run....DL positioned an extra 777 at ATL for this service as protection in case the scheduled 777 went tech (DL did not want to be in the position of having to cancel the NRT run) and if the originally planned aircraft has no issues, the spare 777 would spend the day going back and forth between ATL and MCO. I think that this approach will be dropped once the ATL-TLV route begins operation.

And, some of the 763s and 764s are simply needed for capacity reasons to Florida........DL moves a lot of Florida bound pax through its ATL megahub and needs lots and lots of seats out of ATL to cities such as MCO, TPA and FLL.
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:20 pm

Jeremy,

I did not mean that DL's JFK operation is insignificant. It's definitely not a hub but Delta is the second or third busiest carrier at JFK, after JetBlue. I am not sure if DL is bigger than AA at JFK, or if it is the other way around. What I meant to say is that DL no longer has a FRA hub operation like it did when it first acquired Pan Am's Atlantic ops in 1991. There are no more flights from FRA to places like IST, BOM, PRG, and other points to Eastern Europe operated by Delta. Second, FRA is not a SKYTEAM hub. CDG and AMS are.

ContinentalEWR
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:38 pm

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 36):
Jeremy,

I did not mean that DL's JFK operation is insignificant. It's definitely not a hub but Delta is the second or third busiest carrier at JFK, after JetBlue. I am not sure if DL is bigger than AA at JFK, or if it is the other way around. What I meant to say is that DL no longer has a FRA hub operation like it did when it first acquired Pan Am's Atlantic ops in 1991. There are no more flights from FRA to places like IST, BOM, PRG, and other points to Eastern Europe operated by Delta. Second, FRA is not a SKYTEAM hub. CDG and AMS are.

ContinentalEWR

Concerning DL's operation at JFK, its can be considered a small hub, a gateway city or focus city, depending on how one looks at it......and part of the confusion as to what JFK exactly is in the DL system is primarily DL's fault, they have added and dropped flights to both Europe and in domestic markets again and again over the years. Now, DL has refocused on JFK, so maybe its a hub again, I dont know. In any case, DL's operation at JFK cannot be compared to their own hubs as ATL or even CVG, and CO's operation at EWR is far more powerful than DL's at JFK. DL's transatlantic services out of JFK have always been oriented to O&D traffic, makes sense, NYC is a huge O&D market.......even over at EWR, CO's flights in/out of EWR are somewhere between 65% and 75% O&D pax, pretty amazing for a hub. Lastly, DL operating many flights out of JFK with SONG service has not helped DL's connecting traffic at JFK......many BizElite pax (expecially those originating in Europe) were not thrilled when they realized that they were sitting in coach on their connecting flight out of JFK to Florida or California, it does not sound like a big deal, but DL had some major problems because of this and its part of the reason that the new SONG-influenced DL mainline product will include an F class cabin on all flights.
 
chepos
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:13 am

Some of us are routed through JFK for connections on DL.
I get to have the "thrilling" experience of connecting from FRA to SJU via JFK on December 29th, this means arriving into terminal 3 (Clearing customs and immigrations) and trecking with my luggage to terminal 2 to catch my flight on SONG. When choosing my flight it was cheaper on the return to go via JFK than ATL, going over to FRA I had no choice other than going via ATL since Im flying out of DAB. But for my friend whose flight originates in SJU the cheapest option going to FRA was also via JFK, but we wanted to fly together so we decided to meet up in ATL and pay a bit more.
Chepos
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phollingsworth
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 20):
The only drawback will be whether the 764 can carry any freight on the route. The LD3 and weights issues would come into play as the 764 is a people carrier rather than a mixed operation jet like the much more capable 772ER.

DL's 764s will be able to carry freight on any of the routes from the US to FRA. The longest routing, ATL-FRA, has a still air range of 4009nm. This means that with out 285 pax there should be ~20,000 lbs of freight capacity. It will be more going eastbound and less going west. This will improve somewhat when/if DL gets to reconfigure them to a J/Y configuration with fewer seats. Obviously the B764 isn't as capable as the A332, but it still can perform the mission quite well.

The question then becomes will DL be able to sell this freight capacity. The LD2-LD3 is less of an issue than a lot of people think, it is more important for online baggage handeling. The B764 can handle pallets in the FWD hold. The issue comes if you want to interconnect between an LD3 capable a/c and a LD2 a/c. You will leave some volume empty on the LD3 aircraft if you size your std pallet to the B767. Of course this could be alleviated if someone would just come up with a rotatable pallet that would fit in both.
 
SJUboeingGirl
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:04 am

I don't care how full the 763 flights get when flying from JFK or ATL to FRA , flying the same route with the 777 it's horrible... I've flown both airplanes 777,763,762 from ATL-JFK, JFK-ATL a few couple of times and I have to say the 763 it's way more comfortable than a 777. They should just add a few more 763s  Wink
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Dalmd88
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:19 am

Dl would not bring the 777 into JFK only to do one route. There is no crew base for the 777 in NYC. Also parts would have to be stocked for the 777 and MTC would have to be trained to do one flight a day. That is why the 777 flights are based out of ATL.
 
incitatus
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:54 am

Quoting OOer (Reply 31):
There are many high-end tourists that fly into VCE as it is the only major airport in that part of the country( MXP being 3 hours drive if there are no traffic problems ). There are MANY business travelers that fly to the US from there. Padova(30 miles from VCE) is the industrial hub for the region, Vicenza(50 miles from VCE) is worlds leader of gold jewelry and is the location of SETAF which is a major army installation, Verona(75 miles from VCE) also has a small airforce base, Aviano(60 miles from VCE) is the site of a major airforce base. So throw in the business travelers and the military on this route...and you got yourself a moneymaker!!!!

Verona has its own airport with plenty of domestic and European service. It is also convenient to Milan. So justifying service to VCE based on the business that exists in the Milan-Venice corridor is a stretch. It' s just like justifying service to Boston based on the drug companies located in Hartford, CT.
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DAYflyer
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:39 am

Why not a 764 on this route? It holds more pax, correct?
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panamair
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:28 am

Back to the original question, Delta has a few other routes out of JFK that would demand a bigger aircraft (764 or 777) before JFK-FRA. CDG and, during the summer, FCO, VCE, ATH, and NCE could all do with more lift. Besides, FRA is already well served through ATL and CVG for connections from the rest of the U.S. so JFK-FRA depends quite a bit on O&D; the 763ER is an appropriately-sized aircraft for the route for now and the forseeable future.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:49 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 43):
Why not a 764 on this route? It holds more pax, correct?

Delta intends to convert 8 767-400ER aircraft, which is intended to be completed by the Spring of 2007. They will be the first aircraft to feature the new BusinessElite product. It will NOT seat more than the 777.
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OOer
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RE: DL JFK To FRA Should Be On 777

Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 42):
Verona has its own airport with plenty of domestic and European service.

Nothing direct to the US...thats what we are talking about here! DL has very few code-share seats in and out of VRN!!!! Always have to make a stop somewhere before jumping across the pond. Or you can choose VCE and have a direct flight to JFK-PHL-ATL and the fares tend to be a bit cheaper!!!