hypersonic
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Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:52 pm

As the title says?
& If so what is the rough projected launch year?
cheers
 
Daleaholic
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:54 pm

I wouldn't expect one for a good 5 years, or until the A380-800 has made a big impact and airlines need larger capacity.
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Alessandro
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:00 pm

Well, I think the cargo A380 will be the first stretch.
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A360
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:21 pm

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 2):
Well, I think the cargo A380 will be the first stretch.

?!
The 380F is not a streach!

Or are you refering to a possible 380-900F?

Regards:
A360
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:28 am

Quoting Hypersonic (Thread starter):
& If so what is the rough projected launch year?

The A380-800 was built to accomidate an A380-900 without major complication, but it will be some time before Airbus offers such a variant. There is no projected launch timetable or customer, nor rumours that Airbus will begin offering the A389 in the immediate future.

EK and VS have both stated they will be interested when an A389 is offered, but Airbus has other priorities at the moment.
 
kaitak
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:01 am

Yes, Airbus's main objective must now be to develop a midsize long hauler to take on the 777; the 350 will suit that up to a point, but Airbus will need to look beyond that. It must learn lessons from what is happening right now; the A320 family has undoubtedly been a success, so too the A330 and I'm sure the 380 will be, but the A340 ... oh, dear. Still, it's not a complete loss and the enhanced model may well sell more, but the 777 is clearly racing ahead.

The A350 will probably sell quite a few more, but it will be a stopgap aircraft, before the arrival of the new generation of long hauler; the A320 will over 20 years in production by the end of the decade and while the 737 soldiered on for forty and has done reasonably well ( Wink), Boeing is expected to launch a new short hauler in about 2012, so that means Airbus will have quite a challenge on its hands.

Some say the A380-800 is actually a shortened fuselage of what Airbus intends to be the core of the A380 family, the -900. Although EK has expressed an interest, as has VS, I don't think the market is quite ready yet; however, if oil prices rise considerably and if Airbus can offer this aircraft with a very significant economic advantage, then airlines may well look at it. Personally, I can't wait, but the industry certainly can.
 
airbazar
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:01 am

Actually if I'm not mistaken, the A380-800 is a shortened version of the "real" A380. From what I heard, Airbus was afraid that the A380 as originally planned would be too much airplane and doom the project from the very begining so they opted to launch a shortened version first.

EK has already said that if the A380-900 was available today they'd exchange all their -8 orders for -9's. We'll have to wait and see what the future holds. My guess is that as soon as delivery spots open up, they'll start putting out the -9 for EK, if they still want it.
 
norcal
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:45 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 6):
EK has already said that if the A380-900 was available today they'd exchange all their -8 orders for -9's. We'll have to wait and see what the future holds.

If that is the case then they should do it since EK ordered more than 40 of them, that would probably pay the development costs for the stretch and then some.
 
zvezda
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:53 am

No, an A380-900 is not planned. It is only hypothesized. Someday, Airbus may plan and eventually produce one, but I doubt it.
 
boeingbus
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:57 am

Quoting NorCal (Reply 7):
If that is the case then they should do it since EK ordered more than 40 of them, that would probably pay the development costs for the stretch and then some.

You just dont build a plane for ONE airline. The -800 is more mainstream VLA for this decade, at least. But the 900 is more likely if the HUB to HUB traffic grows like Airbus says it will.
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:02 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 8):
No, an A380-900 is not planned. It is only hypothesized. Someday, Airbus may plan and eventually produce one, but I doubt it.

Of course it's planned. It has been ever since it was the A3XX-200 (and what became the -800 was the -100). FedEx want it; EK want it and I suspect Airbus know that it's only with the -900 that they'll really have an aircraft that finally leaves the 747 behind. It'll be built. I have no doubt of that. Airbus won't make money with the -800 alone.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:26 am

Yes it is planned. Emirates has stated that the A380 they really want is the stretched version.
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lehpron
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:08 am

Put it everything above another way: The only reason A388's wing is so big because of the future stretch version, regardless of the supposed weight issues the future machine will face.:D What would it approach, 1.4 million lbs?
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KFLLCFII
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:17 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 9):
You just dont build a plane for ONE airline.

You don't, but then again, Boeing only launched the 767-400 to replace Delta's L1011s and Continental's DC-10s (which accumulated a combined order total of only 37 between the two). Why? R&D costs for a stretch and minor flight deck upgrades to the existing model, for all intents and purposes, was nil. Any additional orders would have just been icing on the cake.

If Airbus built the A380-800 to accomodate the 900 without major complication, then a launch specifically for EK should not be a stretch of the imagination (no pun intended), as the R&D costs should easily be consumed by an order conversion.
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gigneil
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:29 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 8):
No, an A380-900 is not planned. It is only hypothesized. Someday, Airbus may plan and eventually produce one, but I doubt it.

I don't see why... FedEx has envisioned having a fleet of 200 A380s in the future, and want the A380-900 today. EK wants it today, so does VS.

The plane is designed. It just needs to be launched.

N
 
leelaw
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 14):
FedEx has envisioned having a fleet of 200 A380s in the future

Not exactly, David Sutton of FedEx predicts/expects "...a fleet of 200 A380
freighters in the marketplace over the next 20 years." A mix of A388/389s, new builds as well as conversions.

http://searcht.netscape.com/ns/boomf...Farchive%2Findex.php%2Ft-1199.html

[Edited 2005-12-04 19:48:08]
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bomber996
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:05 am

What Airbus should do is offer the GEnx and Trent 1000 on the A380. That would offer a whole new opperating economics aspect to the aircraft. The engines have basically the same thrust as shown here:

A380-800 - Four 311kN (70,000lb), initially derated to 302kN (68,000lb), later growing to 374kN (84,000lb) thrust Rolls-Royce Trent 900 or 363kN (81,500lb) thrust Engine Alliance (General Electric-Pratt & Whitney) GP-7200 turbofans

- http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=29


Thrust Range: 53,000-72,000 lbs.

- http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/genx/index.html


If GE and RR find a way to upgrade the Engines to a higher thrust version this could possibly add to the A380's appeal. Just a thought.

Peace  box 
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LY777
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:45 am

The A389, if built , will be more elegant than the A388
Flown:717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, D8,D10,L1011, A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388
 
gigneil
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:51 am

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 16):
What Airbus should do is offer the GEnx and Trent 1000 on the A380.

The Trent 1000 is mostly based on the Trent 900's improvements. Engine Alliance has said that they will GEnx the GP7200 as the technology becomes available.

N
 
A350
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:00 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 18):
The Trent 1000 is mostly based on the Trent 900's improvements. Engine Alliance has said that they will GEnx the GP7200 as the technology becomes available.

RR and GE have promised SFCs of 0,50 for the Trent 1000 and GeNX. Is the Trent 900 already so near to that? And what about the GP7200? There must be a reason that EA is speaking about GeNXing them, but I can't imagine they are inferior to the Trents.

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 16):
What Airbus should do is offer the GEnx and Trent 1000 on the A380.

I'm thinking the same, however with the Trent 1700s because they have bleed air. The A388 should become a few percent more efficient. And these engines should even allow for a shrink with comparable seat capacity and trips cost than the 748, but more floor area and range.

A350
 
gigneil
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:18 am

If they were to offer a new engine, I'd bet it to be called the Trent 1900.

The problem is growth.

The Trent 900 and GP7200 both are already certificated up to 81,500 and the GP7200 runs reliably up to 94,000.

The A380-900 will assuredly need the 81,500 and an A380-900F will probably use that or just a smidge more.

N
 
A388
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:24 am

I never thaught of that but it sounds like a nice idea to use GENx engines on the A380. It would make the aircraft more competitive  Smile I guess we'll just have to wait and see. As for the A320 replacement or new generation, Airbus can be an important step ahead if they would come with an all-new A320 based aircraft before Boeing comes with a new replacement for the 737. Boeing has the advantage that they already have the technology available (787 technology) but this technology needs to prove itself as well. This might give Airbus a bit more time to design a new aircraft as well. The A350 will not sell that much as I still see it as a A330 upgrade, nothing more, nothing less. If Airbus can pull off a true new generation of aircraft to compete with the 777 and 787 this would give Airbus more potential as well.

Just my two cents  Wink

A388 Big grin
 
abba
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 8):
No, an A380-900 is not planned. It is only hypothesized. Someday, Airbus may plan and eventually produce one, but I doubt it.

If these people are to be believed there are already plans for the -900:

http://www.aviationnow.com/shownews/05paris/aircraft12.htm

Quoting AviationNow:
Airbus is now giving more hints about the next A380 variant, the extended-range A380-800R. The A380F freighter is following about two years behind the basic aircraft: major assembly will start in the third quarter of next year, the first of two development aircraft is due to fly in mid-2007, and certification is set for April 2008. New A380 versions will follow every two to three years, says Champion.

Improvements for the freighter - including more advanced materials to increase payload and a higher gross weight - will form the basis of the A380-800R extended-range version, to appear in 2010-2011. This in turn could pave the way for the A380-900 stretched version by 2014.

Abba
 
Simpilicity
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:16 pm

How many pax r we talking?

The standard A380 will be certified for 853? or more?

So a stretch ... r u talking 1200 pax?

SCENARIO
Land in SYD at 1200, finally get off aircraft at 1400.

Australians don't want to go to awful hubs like SYD. QF just doesn't get it.

Pax want to get from A to B with as few stops as possible !!!
 
A360
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:22 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 21):
The A350 will not sell that much as I still see it as a A330 upgrade, nothing more, nothing less.

We shall see that.
Nothing more than an A330 upgrade? Like the 737NG was nothing more than a 737classic upgrade? Well, I must say the 737NG (30+ years old design) sold/is selling very well, even in pair with a much more modern designs aircraft: the A320.

the A350 may or may not sell very well.... but the warmed up 330 excuse is not what is going to make the diference... if it's a warmed up 330 with a great efficiency, then airlines will love it.  Wink

Quoting Abba (Reply 22):
Improvements for the freighter - including more advanced materials to increase payload and a higher gross weight - will form the basis of the A380-800R extended-range version, to appear in 2010-2011. This in turn could pave the way for the A380-900 stretched version by 2014.

Will the A380-800RF be a good freighter aircraft for the mainline freighter carriers?  Smile

Regards:
A360
 
Alessandro
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:21 pm

A360, yes, I refer to the 2nd cargo version not the 1st one.
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glidepath73
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:23 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 8):
No, an A380-900 is not planned. It is only hypothesized. Someday, Airbus may plan and eventually produce one, but I doubt it.

You are really quick with your thoughts. Nobody knows really how air traffic will grow in the future. Nobody can tell us if a A389 will be successful or not.
Interest is already there. I bet cargo airlines would love the A389.
Maybe there will be airports in the future which will only allow to land 747's and A380's since there is such a big passenger demand.
Or maybe the other site will happen, where only midsize and commuter a/c operate. Or a further mix like we have it today.... Who knows that now?

Let time come by and we will see.

Regards,
Patrick
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astuteman
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:15 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):
The A380-800 was built to accomidate an A380-900 without major complication, but it will be some time before Airbus offers such a variant. There is no projected launch timetable or customer, nor rumours that Airbus will begin offering the A389 in the immediate future.

EK and VS have both stated they will be interested when an A389 is offered, but Airbus has other priorities at the moment.

You're right, DFW, on all counts. The capability for the A389 is definitely designed into the A380 baseline - always has been, right from the start. With A388/A38F, A350, A345/6E all on the go, though, there's not much chance of seeing one soon. As ABBA posted, I think we'll see a new version A380 every 2-3 years, starting from 2011/2012 EIS

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 20):
If they were to offer a new engine, I'd bet it to be called the Trent 1900.

The problem is growth.

Not sure I agree with that. I'm pretty sure that the T1700 being designed for the A350 will be ideal for the A380.
The 570t version is being certified with 70 000lb engines. By extrapolation, the 600t version should only need 74 000 - 75 000lb thrust engines, which is well within the current design brief for both the GEnx and the T1700.
But it needs to be remembered that the engine makers are also working hard on upping the top end figure for these engines to support 787/A350 weight growth which has been so much talked about.

In terms of efficiency, Widebody has produced charts showing 10% - 11% improvement rom T900 to T1000.
RR have said the T1500 will be 6% - 7% better than the T500. I believe that same gap exists between the T900 and T1700 as a minimum. That sort of improvement on its own would elicit some 500 miles extra range on its own.

Whether its a T1700, or a T1900, an engine with that sort of SFC improvement is now inevitable for the A380 - the 748 saw to that.

But I think that Airbus will go even further, and introduce many of the A350 weight saving features also (like the next-gen alloys) on the newer versions, as they propose to the A345/6. The'yd be daft not to.
The A389, A388R, and A387LR could be pretty impressive aeroplanes.

A
 
keesje
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:57 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 27):
The 570t version is being certified with 70 000lb engines. By extrapolation, the 600t version should only need 74 000 - 75 000lb thrust engines, which is well within the current design brief for both the GEnx and the T1700.

We can't neglect the requirements for doing the airco for 800 passengers & heating some food around dinner time, while watching the latest blockbusters simultanuous on their big seatback screens..

See the accessoires around this Trent..

http://www.rolls-royce.com/civil_aer...ages/photos/lrg_trent900build1.jpg
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ebj1248650
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:04 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 14):
You don't, but then again, Boeing only launched the 767-400 to replace Delta's L1011s and Continental's DC-10s (which accumulated a combined order total of only 37 between the two). Why? R&D costs for a stretch and minor flight deck upgrades to the existing model, for all intents and purposes, was nil. Any additional orders would have just been icing on the cake.

That seems to be an odd way of doing business. You're right that research and development costs would be nil, but I'm hard pressed to understand why Boeing would want to settle with sales to those two airlines and call the effort worthwhile.
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:57 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 29):
That seems to be an odd way of doing business. You're right that research and development costs would be nil, but I'm hard pressed to understand why Boeing would want to settle with sales to those two airlines and call the effort worthwhile.

This has been discussed here ad nauseam. It's a myth that Boeing designed and built the 764 for just two customers. The archives contain lots of statements from Boeing execs predicting robust and prolonged sales of the variant. ILFC ordered the plane but couldn't place it so cancelled. Etc. etc. It simply didn't sell. That's all there is to it. No disgrace. Both Boeing and Airbus have had their failures. I don't know why some A.Netters can't just admit that this was an occasion when Boeing simply got it wrong.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:19 am

Quoting PM (Reply 30):
This has been discussed here ad nauseam. It's a myth that Boeing designed and built the 764 for just two customers. The archives contain lots of statements from Boeing execs predicting robust and prolonged sales of the variant.

The robust sales were supposed to come from Continental & Delta, *gasp*, the two airlines that pushed Boeing into producing the 767-400. When they did not order as many airplanes as projected, Boeing tried to sell the aircraft elsewhere.

Many people point to the failures of Boeing, but, certainly not the 767, the 767 has sold close to 1,000 airframes, and as far as the 767-400, when the sales for the aircraft faded away, Boeing stopped offering the aircraft.....
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MidnightMike
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RE: Is A Stretched A380 Planned?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:22 am

Quoting A360 (Reply 24):
Quoting A388 (Reply 21):
The A350 will not sell that much as I still see it as a A330 upgrade, nothing more, nothing less.

We shall see that.
Nothing more than an A330 upgrade? Like the 737NG was nothing more than a 737classic upgrade?

Well, yeah, the 737NG is a 737 upgrade, that is why the 737 name was kept. Nothing wrong with calling the A350, a A330 upgrade, that would be considered a compliment, the A330 is a fine aircraft.....
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