FFlyer
Topic Author
Posts: 552
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HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:03 am

In an earlier thread there were some speculations about Helsinki having to expand the long-haul part of the international terminal to accommodate the increasing AY long-haul traffic.

Is Finland and Helsinki the only market in Europe with only a single long-haul carrier service? I can't think of any other corresponding market.

Why is that, and is this maybe one of the reasons why Finnair is doing quite well these days? The lack of real competition. What would have happened e.g. if MH or TG would have routed their service through/to Helsinki instead of ARN? And has any Asian carrier ever even considered HEL?
 
killjoy
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...

Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:16 am

Most of Finnair's growth comes from customers who just connect at Helsinki. A foreign competitor could not easily match their extensive European network.

Edit: And it does have competition. It's just hub vs. hub instead of route vs. route. Not quite the same, I admit.

[Edited 2005-12-06 00:18:45]
 
ahlfors
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:28 am

The only logical intercontinental airline I could see coming to HEL would be AA, from ORD. AA and AY codeshare and it would give HEL customers much more connecting possibilities than they currently get with AYs JFK service.
 
scalebuilder
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:14 am

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 1):
Most of Finnair's growth comes from customers who just connect at Helsinki. A foreign competitor could not easily match their extensive European network.

You're right about this. Finnair, with Helsinki as its long-haul hub, has managed to access high growth markets, particularly in Asia. Lots of growth potential for Finnair here in the coming years, and great onward connections for the traveling public of Asia or Europe.

In my mind Finnair has stayed very focused on this task, over several years, and has achieved great success as a result. The airline has a superb team in place who had the vision for this airline to grow in a market where population growth is stagnant or even negative. I really like their cost structure. Compares very well to even low cost market players.
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
Carpethead
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:32 pm

Or JL with its pending status into oneworld. JL has plenty of slots at NRT which it can play around with. AY is just limited to two-weekly frequencies.
JL could channel the Euro connections to HEL and eliminate non-daily service to places like MXP & FCO.
 
andaman
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:02 pm

I just used Finnair's services in SE Asia and learnt that in BKK and SIN they often offer the best deals to Europe. My return ticket HEL-BKK was only 480 Euros - how can they make profit with these prices?

Passangers from Sweden and Norway are important to HEL, as they have limitted long-haul connections to Asia.
But of course the biggest potential is in Asia, in China especially.
Thanks to this growning transit traffic, also Finnish travellers have good connections to Far East, plus some extra connections to Europe.
Chinese cookie in SFO: "You're doomed to a life of forever travelling abroad and to be able to afford it!"
 
radelow
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:10 pm

How does there product compare to other mainstream Euro/Asian/US carriers?

Mark
 
andaman
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:37 pm

Quoting Radelow (Reply 6):
How does there product compare to other mainstream Euro/Asian/US carriers? Mark

I would say Finnair has a very good product (Airbus/Embraer) in Europe and
an average long-haul product (MD-11). New lie-flat seats for business class passengers on all MD-11s will be an improvement.
Chinese cookie in SFO: "You're doomed to a life of forever travelling abroad and to be able to afford it!"
 
FFlyer
Topic Author
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:54 pm

Thanks for your input. But can anyone find an airport in similar single long-haul situation? I'm interested in this statistically. Thanks again.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:57 pm

Quoting FFlyer (Reply 8):
Thanks for your input. But can anyone find an airport in similar single long-haul situation? I'm interested in this statistically. Thanks again.

does anyone operate longhaul in/out of VIE other than OS/NG which are effectively a single carrier ?


DOH! just remembered that MH do  banghead 

[Edited 2005-12-06 13:58:53]
 
OHLHD
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:20 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 9):
does anyone operate longhaul in/out of VIE other than OS/NG which are effectively a single carrier ?

CI to TPE
BR to BKK/TPE
EK to DXB
QR to DOH
MH to KUL
 
kiwiandrew

RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:30 pm

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 10):
CI to TPE
BR to BKK/TPE
EK to DXB
QR to DOH
MH to KUL

doh! I forgot about CI and BR too  blush  . I wouldnt really call EK longhaul , VIE-DXB would only be 5 or 6 hours , wouldn't it ?
 
OHLHD
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:49 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 11):
I wouldnt really call EK longhaul , VIE-DXB would only be 5 or 6 hours , wouldn't it ?

YEP, you are probaply right but QR and EK are the 4th and 5th longest non OS pax flight from VIE.  Smile
 
AY-MD11
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:18 pm

I would say that theyr European service is good but the long haul sucks!The seats are cramped and the food is awful in theyr md-11s(and there is no choice of meals).Maybe when they get new A350s or B787s things will be better.


regards,
Jon
 
Lindy
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:23 pm

You forgot Warsaw WAW. Only LOT is operating long haul from there.

Rafal
BWIADCA - Nikon D100
 
killjoy
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:39 pm

Quoting AY-MD11 (Reply 13):
the long haul sucks!The seats are cramped and the food is awful in theyr md-11s(and there is no choice of meals).

Seats cramped? I take it you've been flying in the back, where they stick cheap tour groups. The ones in the middle are better.

I've always liked the food. It's not at business class levels in economy, but what do you expect?
 
FinnWings
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:55 pm

Actually there are now two airlines offering long-haul service from Helsinki. Air Finland started recently once a week service to Bangkok. Despite the service is seasonal (will cease 4th April 06) it is really a scheduled longhaul flight. Currently FIF operates mixed charter and scheduled flights from Helsinki. They fly also to Oman, Venezuela, Azores and Brazil but these are pure charter flights operated for several tour operators.

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Stefan Sjögren - Stockholm Arlanda Photography



What comes to Helsinki, I believe that we will quite soon see other airlines flying longhaul flights from here too. JL is definitely a strong candidate and perhaps AA and Emirates too. Actually Emirates does have the slots and traffic rights to HEL already so I believe it is only a matter of time.

Best Regards,
FinnWings

[Edited 2005-12-06 16:01:12]
 
kiwiandrew

RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:23 am

Quoting AY-MD11 (Reply 13):
the food is awful in theyr md-11s(and there is no choice of meals).Maybe when they get new A350s or B787s things will be better.

I'm not sure how that will improve the food . Have I been missing something in all the 787/A350 promotional material ?  Wink
 
AY-MD11
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:20 am

Didn't mean the food gets better when plane changes..  Winkflying in the front of economy and in the back and still find it cramped.Maybe because i have always been in the middle seat..My last flight to JFK i cant say good things about catering..the portions are small and the food was terrible.Sure everyone has theyr own epinion but i was not the only one that was complaining that day.I would say AYs long haul product is average and will get better when they get new planes.
 
stirling
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:56 am

Quoting FFlyer (Thread starter):
Is Finland and Helsinki the only market in Europe with only a single long-haul carrier service?

Maybe Intercontinental?
Or Asian and American destined flights by other carriers?

The word "Long-Haul" can be subjective.

Quoting Lindy (Reply 14):
You forgot Warsaw WAW. Only LOT is operating long haul from there.

ElAl appears to be the only "Asian" carrier...whether that is considered "Long-Haul" shall remain up for debate.
Delete this User
 
masseybrown
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:04 am

Although CO seems to avoid tags, if they can ever find a spare 762, they could try some version of EWR-LED-HEL-EWR.
 
Lindy
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:35 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 19):
ElAl appears to be the only "Asian" carrier...whether that is considered "Long-Haul" shall remain up for debate.

Well, flights from WAW to Spain are longer than to Tel Aviv. I don't consider EL AL long haul - Also, I'm not sure if the fly to WAW anyway. (I know that they fly there with charter flights).

Rafal
BWIADCA - Nikon D100
 
Rottamo
Posts: 135
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 3):
I really like their cost structure. Compares very well to even low cost market players.

This sounds hard to believe for me.


I took quick look at their annual report. Few observations:
Their load factors are not very good in Europe (year 2004):

Region Passenger load factor %
Europe 57.4 %
North Atlantic 80.9 %
Asia 76.1%
Domestic 55.1%

Scheduled passenger traffic total 65.1%

Leisure traffic (charter?) 89.1%

Source: Finnair Group traffic performance December 04, Financial year 2004

So it seems that they are losing money in Europe and domestic routes or they are using way too big planes.

These numbers are from their annul report (2004):

Turnover:
Scheduled Passenger Traffic 1 265.8 million Euro

Operating profit: Scheduled Passenger Traffic -24.7 million Euro

=> Costs are 1265.8 – (-24.7)= 1292.6 million euro for Scheduled Passenger Traffic

Operating data (scheduled passenger traffic)
RPM 6 605 million miles
ASP 10 143 million miles

Turnover per RPM 0.19 Euro
Cost per available seat mile 0.13 Euro

1 EUR = 1.1767 USD

=>
Turnover per RPM 0.23 USD
Cost per available seat mile 0.15 USD


These numbers does not look very cost effective for me. But does anyone have better information?
Or have I made some mistake in my calculations (charter traffic?)
 
andaman
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...

Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:50 am

Quoting Rottamo (Reply 22):
So it seems that they are losing money in Europe and domestic routes or they are using way too big planes.

Thats why they bought 16 Embraers to replace old MD-80s.
Finnair (with its little helpers Aero, Golden air) flies to some 20 airports inside Finland, quite a lot in a small country of 5,2milj people. But I quess they do it for a reason, not just loosing money.
Chinese cookie in SFO: "You're doomed to a life of forever travelling abroad and to be able to afford it!"
 
Rottamo
Posts: 135
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting Rottamo (Reply 22):
Or have I made some mistake in my calculations (charter traffic?)

Here are same numbers with charter traffic:

RPM 6 605 + 3 093 = 9 698 mill miles
ASM 10 143 + 3 472 = 13 615 mill miles


Turnover per RPM 0.131 Euro
Cost per available seat mile 0.095 Euro

1 EUR = 1.1767 USD

=>
Turnover per RPM 0.15 USD
Cost per available seat mile 0.11 USD

Their annual report is not very accurate about business divisions. They claim that charter traffic is part of Leisure Traffic division.

"Leisure Traffic
This division consists of Finnair Leisure Flights as well as the
Aurinkomatkat-Suntours package tour company, which is the
biggest in its field in Finland with a market share of more than
35 per cent. Finnair Leisure Flights continues to be a strong
market leader in leisure travel flights, even though more competition
has entered the market."

But may be leisure traffic division buys flights from scheduled traffic division and because of that there is double counting in annual report. At least these numbers are not as horrible as previous ones. Still very bad numbers.

My best guess is still that original numbers are correct.

Comparison:
Ryanair CASM 0,053 EUR

Quoting Andaman (Reply 23):
But I guess they do it for a reason, not just loosing money.

Yes. Most likely reason is political one. After all Finnair is state owned company. I also guess that there is some kind of national pride thing concerning European routes. They have to fly every major city. Profitable or not.
It is very easy to say that their Asian traffic is profitable and North America also. Despite of that they are losing money (or they were, this year is different story). Loss of Scheduled passenger traffic was:
2004 -24.7 mio Eur
2003 -31.8 mio Eur
2002 45.6 mio Eur
2001 -18.7 mio Eur
 
eilennaei
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:03 pm



AY share
 
Rottamo
Posts: 135
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:38 am

Yes. They have done quite well during this year. 2006 is also going to be ok year.

But here is their revenue structure:

passenger and cargo revenues 2005 Q1-Q3

Asia 26%
America 5%
Domestic 18%
Europe 51%

69% comes from Europe.
BA: 38% from Europe during financial year 2000.

You should read annual reports or 10-K forms of Are Lingus, BA, United, Delta, Northwest, Continental and AA . Then reading annual reports or 10-K forms of Ryan Air, Easyjet and Southwest should give you some perspective to this issue.
Competing with LCCs is not easy.

Finnair is better positioned than other small European legacy carriers and it is likely that they will survive. Real LCCs are not flying to Helsinki-Vantaa yet. But when easyjet will start the situation is going to be difficult to Finnair.

Example. I want to go from Helsinki to London tomorrow and come back day after that.
Price (from Finnair web page):
Price 1336.16 EUR

Trip length 1150 miles.

And same from Tallinn to London with Easyjet:
258.28 EUR

I know that some people take ferry to Tallinn and use easyjet because fares are so ridiculous.

What is Finnair’s situation when Easyjet will fly to ten destinations from Helsinki (year 2010)?

Asian traffic is going to help but can they make enough money in Asia to pay losses in Europe?

Finnair ‘s route network in Europe is not very good. Mainly major cities. In the long run people are going to have direct flights using A350 or 787. Emirates is also going to compete with Finnair (at least in routes to DEL, SIN and BKK).

Finnair has time to react and Asia traffic will help. Their only problem is that they seem to think they are doing very well.
 
FFlyer
Topic Author
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:52 am

Is EasyJet going to start flights to Helsinki - and to ten destinations from there???!! I didn't know that, but that is good news for the Finns.
 
andaman
Posts: 2271
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:21 am

Also LCC Sterling starts flying from Hell with 11 destinations in spring.

Quoting FFlyer (Thread starter):

Yes. Most likely reason is political one. After all Finnair is state owned company. I also guess that there is some kind of national pride thing concerning European routes. They have to fly every major city. Profitable or not.

That sounded bit funny  Smile..I am sure national pride has quite little with this business, the state owns just about 50% of the company and their markets are more and more outside Finland.
There isn't much room for national pride like that in the free market business.
Chinese cookie in SFO: "You're doomed to a life of forever travelling abroad and to be able to afford it!"
 
FFlyer
Topic Author
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RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:02 am

Andaman; those were not my words you quoted....

Anybody can tell more about EasyJet and Helsinki?
 
andaman
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Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:29 am

RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...

Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:01 am

Quoting Rottamo (Reply 24):
Yes. Most likely reason is political one. After all Finnair is state owned company. I also guess that there is some kind of national pride thing concerning European routes. They have to fly every major city. Profitable or not.

So sorry, FFlyer, it was Rottamo!

Haven't heard EasyJet coming here in HEL and I don't think they would inform their plans for year 2010...
LCC Sterling opening a base in HEL soon, with 11European destinations.
Chinese cookie in SFO: "You're doomed to a life of forever travelling abroad and to be able to afford it!"
 
48v
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 11:04 am

RE: HEL The Only Major European Airport W/ Only...?

Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:10 am

What about KEF as a European airport with only one scheduled long-haul carrier?

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