KL808
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MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:59 am

The current success of blended winglets on the B737 and B757 market has me thinking.

How come they don't have it for the MD-80 fleets?
Are there plans for this?
Is there technical issues involved?

AA and others have a few MD-80's, wouldn't this boost efficiency on the super 80's.

Those winglets will look good on those Mad dogs


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Drew
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September11
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:04 am

Winglets on M80s? Ummm ... after looking at this picture


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that is a possibility ...
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ikramerica
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:06 am

Aviation Partners is looking into it. The main airline that would desire them would be AA.
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gokmengs
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:07 am

I think you get more benefits out of winglets when you fly longer, that could be the reason since carriers use the MD's mostly for shorter routes.
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levg79
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:27 am

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 3):
I think you get more benefits out of winglets when you fly longer, that could be the reason since carriers use the MD's mostly for shorter routes.

Just like B6, who have winglets installed on all of their long-haul equipment  biggrin 

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AA737-823
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:34 am

"mostly on shorter routes..."
Disagree. AA uses the MD-80 for DFW-SEA, and other long routes. Midcons, anyway. Anything over 4 hours, and it's certainly viable. Just as Southwest... Their entire fleet of -700s has them, and their birds make the occasional short flight...
 
gokmengs
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:44 am

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 4):
Just like B6, who have winglets installed on all of their long-haul equipment

Hmm installed, does it come any other way Wink

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
"mostly on shorter routes..."
Disagree. AA uses the MD-80 for DFW-SEA, and other long routes. Midcons, anyway. Anything over 4 hours, and it's certainly viable. Just as Southwest... Their entire fleet of -700s has them, and their birds make the occasional short flight...

You are right I should have been more clear with my post, am I wrong that you reap more benefits out of winglets on longer routes?
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IAH744
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:47 am

Deliver Everyones Luggage To Atlanta
 
boeingbus
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:58 am

Quoting KL808 (Thread starter):
How come they don't have it for the MD-80 fleets?

because Boeing wants the airlines to replace them... lol... dunno, there needs to be a demand, I guess...

But those pics w/ winglets look promissing???
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
AJRfromSYR
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:13 am

they look horrible...
-AJR-
 
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:47 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
Aviation Partners is looking into it. The main airline that would desire them would be AA.

Will AA fund them? Imagine the MD's with new engines and winglets... coast to coast!  bigthumbsup 

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 8):
because Boeing wants the airlines to replace them...

More profit in the current environment just providing spares.

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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:51 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 8):
But those pics w/ winglets look promissing???

most definitely for AA ... we'll see.
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FriendlySkies
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:58 am

Quoting KL808 (Thread starter):
AA and others have a few MD-80's

If over 400 is a few, then yes.  Wink

If APB could get AA to buy them, they'd be immediately profitable, so it's a definate possibility.
 
dw9115
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:05 am

There's was a article in ATW or Aviation Week & Space Technology can't remember which exactly of the top of my head about this very topic and the only reason it has not gone a head yet is that they are looking for a launch customer. They are also looking in to the 737-600 and the 767-300/400 as well as the 777.
 
roseflyer
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:08 am

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 3):
I think you get more benefits out of winglets when you fly longer, that could be the reason since carriers use the MD's mostly for shorter routes.

AA definitely operates MD80s on longer routes nowadays. They operate almost all of their ORD-west coast flights with MD80s, which means that they are on some pretty long stage lengths.

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 6):
You are right I should have been more clear with my post, am I wrong that you reap more benefits out of winglets on longer routes?

You see the benefits of winglets at high speed cruise since that is where they improve efficiency. They actually are harmful during takeoff and climb since they add weight to the plane, and in an airplane, weight is the enemy of performance. So the effect of them is more pronounced on longer flights when the plane spends more time in cruise.

The MD80 wing is already one of the more efficient wings. The T tail and rear mounted engines means that the wing can be designed for only aerodynamics and does not need to support the engines. I wonder how much efficiency winglets would bring to the MD80.
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deltagator
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:14 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
The main airline that would desire them would be AA.

I would think that Delta could be interested as well given the large number of Maddogs in their fleet. Now they just need to scrape up some change for them.
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md80fanatic
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:18 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 14):
The MD80 wing is already one of the more efficient wings. The T tail and rear mounted engines means that the wing can be designed for only aerodynamics and does not need to support the engines. I wonder how much efficiency winglets would bring to the MD80.

Great point, the wings are already pretty clean. The wingtips are actually raked a little...not bad for an early design.
 
jacobin777
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:04 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 14):
AA definitely operates MD80s on longer routes nowadays. They operate almost all of their ORD-west coast flights with MD80s, which means that they are on some pretty long stage lengths.

yah..that's for sure...just landed a couple of hours ago from ORD-SFO on one of their MD-80's....winglets would certainly look nice.. yes 
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:19 pm

If they do decide to buy winglets how many of the AA/DL fleet will be fitted do you think?

150 AA planes?
-AJR-
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:22 pm

Do you think MD80's will be flying for AA/DL that much longer to warrant the expense of fitting them with winglets?
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warreng24
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:33 pm

Quoting Dw9115 (Reply 13):

The 767-400 has raked wingtips and does not need winglets.
 
irelayer
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:34 pm

I would assume if winglets were ever put onto an MD-80 they would have to be pretty small b/c IIRC the MD-80 wing is quite a bit lighter than the 737 wing and so there would inevitably be weight and balance issues.

-IR
 
Slcpilot
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:37 pm

Quoting Dw9115 (Reply 13):
They are also looking in to the 737-600 and the 767-300/400 as well as the 777.

I really doubt you'd see them on 767-400s.

As a general rule of thumb, a winglet is equivalent to about half it's height in increased span. Another way, if you have a six foot tall winglet, you'd get the same aerodynamic boost from a three foot wing extension. The reason you don't see more wing extensions is due to the fact it increases the bending moment on the wing. The 764 already has swept wing extensions.

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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:55 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 14):
They actually are harmful during takeoff and climb since they add weight to the plane, and in an airplane, weight is the enemy of performance.

Nitpick: Winglets usually reduce required runway length. However, you are correct that most winglets do not help but due to the weight hinder during climb. However, for some aircraft at *very high* MTOW, winglets can actually help climb (but then again, one isn't at high MTOW for a short hop... So you've made your point.)

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 14):
wonder how much efficiency winglets would bring to the MD80.

Quite a bit actually. While the MD-80 is amazingly efficient for its era, that era is long gone. Modern wing design theory has continued to progress at a rate of 1/2 percent drop in fuel consumption per year. I would expect in the 5% to 7% range.

I do wonder if a new engine would have more benefit than winglets... but I think winglets are a much more economical solution.  Sad (I'm not anti-winglet, just pro-engine!)

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commavia
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:03 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 18):
150 AA planes?

Why not all 337, assuming the winglets actually perform?

Presumably, AA would install winglets on only a few planes (probably 10 or less) at first to see how they do in regular operations, and their impact on reliability, efficiency, GTOW, range and operating economics. This is their approach with the 737s -- they put the winglets on only one plane at first, and will probably expand it to the rest of the fleet after the test period is over given favorable acquisition terms.

All of this is, of course, predicated on AA actually being willing to spend the money on these winglets, which would -- in total -- would cost millions. That, in turn, is predicated on two things: AA making money, and AA deeming the project to have a return-on-investment period of less than a few years, so they would realize the savings quickly and make back the money ASAP.
 
RiddlePilot215
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:05 pm

Quoting KL808 (Thread starter):
The current success of blended winglets on the B737 and B757 market has me thinking.

How come they don't have it for the MD-80 fleets?
Are there plans for this?
Is there technical issues involved?

AA and others have a few MD-80's, wouldn't this boost efficiency on the super 80's.

Those winglets will look good on those Mad dogs

They WOULD look good.....at making the maddogs look like RJ's.....

Wouldn't really help much...the only thing that plane is really good for is leaking Jet-A onto the tarmac....I mean what a vote of confidence if Delta is trying to get RID of their offenders of kerosene burning
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dw9115
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:14 pm

This is something I found on what winglets can offer the MD-80's

Winglet supplier studies MD-80 application
Tuesday July 12, 2005
Fischer Advanced Composite Components, which as a supplier to Aviation Partners Boeing has a 95% market share of 737 winglet production, is studying the possibility of developing winglets for the MD-80."We know that airlines like SAS are looking for solutions to save more fuel for their MD-80 fleets," FACC CEO Walter Stephan told this website. However, he added that winglets for the MD-80 are unlikely to provide the 3%-5% improvement in fuel burn enjoyed by 737NG operators. "MD-80 winglets could save 2%-3% of fuel," but only in combination with changes to the engines such as hushkitting, he said.

Scandinavian Airlines and subsidiary Spanair operate a fleet of about 80 MD-80s. SAS CEO Jorgen Lindegaard told ATWOnline recently that no discussions are underway about an MD-80 replacement before 2008, given the financial challenges currently facing the carrier. Owing to noise concerns with the aircraft, particularly on takeoff, SAS is studying possible quieting solutions including winglets and engine modifications, an airline spokesperson confirmed.

Other big MD-80 fleet operators include American Airlines with 362, Delta Air Lines with 120 and Alitalia with 79.

by Kurt Hofmann
 
AJRfromSYR
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:17 pm

Quoting comvair (Reply 24):
Why not all 337, assuming the winglets actually perform?

Presumably, AA would install winglets on only a few planes (probably 10 or less) at first to see how they do in regular operations, and their impact on reliability, efficiency, GTOW, range and operating economics. This is their approach with the 737s -- they put the winglets on only one plane at first, and will probably expand it to the rest of the fleet after the test period is over given favorable acquisition terms.

All of this is, of course, predicated on AA actually being willing to spend the money on these winglets, which would -- in total -- would cost millions. That, in turn, is predicated on two things: AA making money, and AA deeming the project to have a return-on-investment period of less than a few years, so they would realize the savings quickly and make back the money ASAP.

I would think some MD80 routes would not be profited by winglets, shorter runs where the winglets would hinder performance enough for them to not be warranted. Each winglet costs money, and if a MD80 route would not warrant it why waste money putting a winglet jet on it?

Also it would be unwise to fit older MD80's with winglets presuming they will be retired in the near future by 738's or just cut from the system.

Just my 2 cents
-AJR-
 
commavia
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:20 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 27):
Each winglet costs money, and if a MD80 route would not warrant it why waste money putting a winglet jet on it?

While I obviously don't have actual relevant data, my guess would be that the logistical costs of innefficiency from fitting winglets on a segment of the fleet, but not the whole fleet, would cost more than flying the winglets on shorter runs. AA is focused right now on standardizing their fleet as much as possible, and driving as much innefficiency out of their network and operations as possible. That being said, this is what the assumed test period would be for -- to measure exactly what impact the fuel savings would be on short vs. long routes, etc.
 
md80fanatic
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:21 pm

Interesting info from Kurt....only one question though.

Is he saying that 2%-3% can be saved ONLY with hushkitted engines? What does thrust from 40 feet behind have to do with winglet performance?
 
dw9115
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:37 pm

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 20):
The 767-400 has raked wingtips and does not need winglets.

Sorry I was mistaken it was only for the 767-300ERs. I found this info on it.

Blended Winglets to Be Offered on Boeing 767's
Jul 19, 04 | 12:18 pm



Aviation Partners Boeing Completes Product Development on a Blended Winglet for the 767-300ER
Following the tremendous success they have experienced equipping 737NG aircraft with Performance Enhancing Blended Winglets(TM) and the recent announcement that 757 Blended Winglets will be certified and in service in mid 2005 beginning with Launch Customer Continental Airlines, Aviation Partners Boeing announced today that they are actively seeking a launch partner for it's new wing tip device for 767-300ER aircraft.



"We are very happy, here at the Farnborough Air Show, to announce that the expansion of our product line is right on track and we are now in discussions with several 767 operators about Blended Winglets for their airplanes," says Aviation Partners Boeing CEO Mike Marino. "In today's market, perhaps more than ever before, airline operators are focused on saving fuel and protecting the environment, and we are hard at work developing value technology for their entire fleet."

Today, over 500 Next Generation 737-700s & 800s are equipped with patented* Blended Winglet Systems with current orders and options standing at over 1100 shipsets. Aviation Partners Boeing forecasts a potential Blended Winglet upgrade market for some 850 Pratt & Whitney and Rolls-Royce powered 757-200, and over 400 767-300ERs, in both passenger and freight configurations.

Aviation Partners Boeing, a joint venture between Aviation Partners Inc. and The Boeing Company, developed Blended Winglet Technology in the early 1990s. Sized for maximum performance, and with a wider sweep transition between wing and winglet, Blended Winglets are typically 80% more effective than today's conventional angular winglet systems.

"Blended Winglet Technology is revolutionary and the operator benefits are absolutely compelling," says Aviation Partners Boeing Board Chairman Joe Clark. "We believe that anything you can do to improve the performance and value of a commercial aircraft is a wise investment."
 
slashd0t
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:34 pm

I think the MD-80 looks great with winglets!!
/.
 
AJRfromSYR
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:40 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 28):
While I obviously don't have actual relevant data, my guess would be that the logistical costs of innefficiency from fitting winglets on a segment of the fleet, but not the whole fleet, would cost more than flying the winglets on shorter runs.

Very good point. Wonder if AA will ever get to the point of testing them.
-AJR-
 
jumppilot
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:23 pm

Lets dig up the old 707's out of the desert and slap them on those too! It will be great. sarcastic 
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bsu747
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:08 pm

Maybe an excuse for NW to put winglets on the DC-9's to keep them flying a little longer!!!
Could'nt resist it.

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AJRfromSYR
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:32 pm

Quoting Jumppilot (Reply 33):
Lets dig up the old 707's out of the desert and slap them on those too! It will be great.

How does that have anything to do with this topic?
-AJR-
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:45 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 35):
How does that have anything to do with this topic?

What it has to do with the topic is that the discussion concerns putting winglets on an airliner of older design (MD-80). The 707 is also an older design, too. I think it's a natural progression of the topic, maybe thrown in a little tongue-in-cheek, but not off-topic at all. I actually thought the same type of thing, except with a DC-8, since there are still a number of those in cargo service and they do serve longer routes. If they have done it on a 727, then a 707 is certainly not out of the question!

Thanks for the pun, Jumppilot!
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roseflyer
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:51 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 23):
I do wonder if a new engine would have more benefit than winglets... but I think winglets are a much more economical solution

Engines are the most expensive part of an airplane. You would only put new engines on a plane if you expect to fly it for over 10-15 years like cargo DC8 operators have. Winglets can see positive return on the investment in a much shorter time. I think I remember seeing that the winglets on the 73Gs that WN installed payed for themselves in only six months due to decreased fuel burn.
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:55 pm

Quoting StuckinMAF (Reply 36):
What it has to do with the topic is that the discussion concerns putting winglets on an airliner of older design (MD-80). The 707 is also an older design, too. I think it's a natural progression of the topic, maybe thrown in a little tongue-in-cheek, but not off-topic at all. I actually thought the same type of thing, except with a DC-8, since there are still a number of those in cargo service and they do serve longer routes. If they have done it on a 727, then a 707 is certainly not out of the question!

Thanks for the pun, Jumppilot!

For many airlines the MD80 is an unreplaceable aircraft and in need of updating to stay competitive with the new 737NGs and A320s. I doubt the worlds fleet of DC-8/707 is large enough to warrant winglets, nor do I think the people operating them truly care to pay for the high development costs.
-AJR-
 
jumppilot
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:02 am

What???? It has everything to do with the topic. I may have not used the word "MD-80" (which by the way I think would look bad with winglets) but I stayed within the boundaries. It's because I think that at one point or another every Boeing airplane without winglets is brought up at sometime in these discussions. I get the impression that some people think that winglets are the answer to everything and they are going to save airlines. I was just being sarcastic earlier.
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rj777
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:21 am

I think it's just a matter of time before the entire Boeing lineup has winglets!
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:53 am

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 38):
I doubt the worlds fleet of DC-8/707 is large enough to warrant winglets, nor do I think the people operating them truly care to pay for the high development costs.

Agreed. It certainly could be done, and it probably wouldn't be worth it. But like retro liveries, it's fun to think about mixing the old and the new for nostalgia's sake!
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
vatveng
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:54 am

Quoting RJ777 (Reply 40):
I think it's just a matter of time before the entire Boeing lineup has winglets!

AirTran has hinted at wanting to try them out on the 717, at current fuel prices if winglets save half a gallon on a short hop they'll be worth it.
 
ckfred
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:42 am

There is a rumor that AA will, within the next few years, say 3 to 6, replace the oldest 40 or 50 MD-80s with 737-800s. These are planes with a lot of cycles that need more and more maintenance.

Since the 737 has been moved to MIA, AA must fly MD-80s on routes out of ORD to the West Coast. That means a lot of MD-80s are flying routes of 3:30 to 4:30 flying time. MD-80s flying these routes would benefit from winglets.

How much winglets hurt performance on short hops is open to debate. My wife flew WN last week on MDW-SDF on a 737-700 both ways. So, WN must not be seeing dramatic decreases in performance on short hops.

The problem with adding winglets to MD-80s, besides cost of installation, fuel savings, and how much longer AA intends to fly the MD-80, is wingspan. AA was hestitant to put winglets on the 737-800s, because it cut down on the number of gates in which a 737 can park. A 737NG without winglets can park in a gate which can accomodate an MD-80. But with even the 5 extra feet of wingspan, the 737 now needs a 757 gate.

If the winglets add 5 feet to the MD-80 wingspan, then it could make some of the gates at ORD unusable. Considering that gate changes at ORD are very frequent, that could really cause problems, particularly when the weather wrecks havoc with the schedule.

It seems to me that instead of a blended winglet, the MD-80 might need a fence, so that the wingspan doesn't increase very much.
 
LMP737
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:44 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 23):
I do wonder if a new engine would have more benefit than winglets... but I think winglets are a much more economical solution. (I'm not anti-winglet, just pro-engine!)

Well of course new engines, say the BR715, would save more fuel than just winglets. However you know as well as I do that engines are not cheap. Not only do you have to pay for the engines but there is also the engineering, conversion and training costs as well. Then one has to figure how long it will take for the new engines to pay for themselves. In AA's case they would have to decide how many MD-80's were worth converting over.
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DAYflyer
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:45 am

Quoting September11 (Reply 1):
Winglets on M80s? Ummm ... after looking at this picture



View Large View Medium

Photo © Kent Scott



that is a possibility ...

Looks like a crj on steroids.
One Nation Under God
 
RiddlePilot215
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RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:51 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 16):
Great point, the wings are already pretty clean. The wingtips are actually raked a little...not bad for an early design.

It's your typical high lift wings at HIGH AIRSPEEDS...does nothing for the plane on takeoff. I don't even thing that thing can fly without a 15 flap setting before the t/o roll....

If you want a good wing, look at the 727
God is good, all the time. All the time, God is good.
 
Ken777
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:33 am

If AA's 737 experiment goes well I think the MD-80s will get at least one test plane, assuming that AA is satisfied on the engineering side. Since it will be modified in TUL I hope the programs go well as it helps the employment here.
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2365
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:37 am

Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 46):
It's your typical high lift wings at HIGH AIRSPEEDS...does nothing for the plane on takeoff. I don't even thing that thing can fly without a 15 flap setting before the t/o roll....

11 degree flaps are routinely used for TO, with 15 as an alternate.
 
captainstorck
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:40 am

RE: MD-80's With Winglets!

Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:41 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 37):
I think I remember seeing that the winglets on the 73Gs that WN installed payed for themselves in only six months due to decreased fuel burn.

If this is the case, then why did they not install them on the 300's as well?

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