TG992
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Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:09 am

I'm going to put strong money on AKl-HKG-LGW daily. This will be announced in the coming weeks!
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NZ1
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:13 am

Quoting TG992 (Thread starter):
I'm going to put strong money on AKl-HKG-LGW daily. This will be announced in the coming weeks!

Haha, you must have heard what I heard yesterday. This is looking quite likely now isn't it?

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kiwiinoz
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:19 am

Why LGW instead of LHR? Slots?
 
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:21 am

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 2):
Why LGW instead of LHR? Slots?

Exactly. The UK is looking at opening up LHR to other US carriers. If that happens, NZ won't be able to compete with the silly slot prices being paid, hence LGW.

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planemanofnz
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:31 am

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 3):
Exactly. The UK is looking at opening up LHR to other US carriers. If that happens, NZ won't be able to compete with the silly slot prices being paid, hence LGW.

Yes, but what about connections througout the U.K and europe? I don't think bmi or lufthansa have lots of flights to LGW? I take it that this route will be operated with a 744? I canot wait to find out schedules e.t.c in a few weeks! Will this mean twice daily to LON for NZ?
 
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:35 am

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 3):
NZ won't be able to compete with the silly slot prices being paid, hence LGW.

That's no good. LGW is a dump. Oh well, at least it's another way of getting to London for staff so i can't really complain.
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runway23
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:43 am

Quoting AerorobNZ (Reply 5):
That's no good. LGW is a dump. Oh well, at least it's another way of getting to London for staff so i can't really complain.

LGW is definately not a dump. Most of LHR's terminals are disgraceful however.

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 4):
Yes, but what about connections througout the U.K and europe? I don't think bmi or lufthansa have lots of flights to LGW? I take it that this route will be operated with a 744? I canot wait to find out schedules e.t.c in a few weeks! Will this mean twice daily to LON for NZ?

I doubt they are looking for connections. They can easily rely on O&D traffic and still make it work.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:47 am

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 4):
Yes, but what about connections througout the U.K and europe? I don't think bmi or lufthansa have lots of flights to LGW? I take it that this route will be operated with a 744? I canot wait to find out schedules e.t.c in a few weeks! Will this mean twice daily to LON for NZ?

NZ already connects a lot of people to LH via LAX or SFO. People wouldn't go via HKG and LON when they could make a one stop flight to Germany, and from FRA you can go pretty much anywhere in Europe. I don't think connections are significant enough to require service to LHR. NZ already flies daily to LHR anyway.
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Dalavia
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:51 am

This news is indeed interesting if true, because it will provide the first direct Star Alliance flights from Hong Kong to London.

At present, all Star Alliance HKG-LON flights are via Singapore, Bangkok, Seoul or North America.
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:15 pm

So any ideas on when this is likely to start up. Months, years??

Would much rather a two day stop in HKG on the way to London rather than LAX.
 
TBCITDG
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:29 pm

So how will NZ face the stiff competition from CX,QF,BA nd to an extent VS???
 
Gemuser
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:02 pm

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 10):
So how will NZ face the stiff competition from CX,QF,BA nd to an extent VS???

As the only Star Alliance carrier on the route (if this is true) they will have a certain base of FFs who will be over joyed to use them. How many *A FF currently fly HKG-FRA-LON? Thats a ready market. Not to mention *A carriers feeding pax to them at HKG.


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aerorobnz
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:22 pm

Quoting Runway23 (Reply 6):
LGW is definately not a dump

Actually I think it is - I found a very dated airport, compared to the terminal that NZ currently fly into at LHR at least anyway.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
777ER
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:34 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 4):
Will this mean twice daily to LON for NZ?

The Plan was for twice daily London flights

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 9):
So any ideas on when this is likely to start up. Months, years??

With all the B777s arriving over the next few months and freeing up B744s, I would give it a few months intill the flights start, say maybe March, April or May next year
 
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Dalavia
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:40 pm

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 8):
This news is indeed interesting if true, because it will provide the first direct Star Alliance flights from Hong Kong to London. At present, all Star Alliance HKG-LON flights are via Singapore, Bangkok, Seoul or North America.



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 11):
As the only Star Alliance carrier on the route (if this is true) they will have a certain base of FFs who will be over joyed to use them.

Hong Kong - London must be one of the most major city pairs lacking a direct Star Alliance link at the moment. (Maybe someone else can suggest a more major gap in Star's network, but I can't think of one).

I think the Star factor will work extremely well for NZ if this new route happens.
 
sllevin
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:01 pm

Quoting Runway23 (Reply 6):
LGW is definately not a dump. Most of LHR's terminals are disgraceful however.

Couldn't agree more. I'll take Gatwick any day! I can typically be in my hire car and on the M23 before I'd even get on the Hertz bus at Heathrow.

Steve
 
nickofatlanta
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:20 pm

And this gives NZ somewhat of a RTW route - even if it does use co-terminals.
 
planemanofnz
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:23 pm

So now NZ will have true *round-the world* coverage. I hope the route is a success for NZ. I am flying to Ireland next year in April/May so hopefully the route will be open by then so I can take it!  crossfingers 
 
JoFMO
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:48 pm

As far as I remember it was always mentioned from our NZ insiders here that NZ already has the slots for another LHR flight and that they jsut have to get back these slots.

Why now Gatwick?

There is no feed from anywhere in the UK with BMI to GTW. I would love to choose NZ to HKG from Germany with any feeder flight by LH/BMI.

But at least they don't route it via the USA, which is a pain to transfer.
 
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:51 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 17):
So now NZ will have true *round-the world* coverage. I hope the route is a success for NZ. I am flying to Ireland next year in April/May so hopefully the route will be open by then so I can take it!

Easy connection at LGW from AirNZ to Ryanair, and lots of other low fare carriers.

I think LGW is in better shape than LHR.
Why fly non stop when you can connect
 
kaitak
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:56 pm

Are we talking about 777s or 744s for this route; I'm presuming the former?

I think it's very good for LGW, which has very few eastbound long haul routes.

Hopefully, this will be the first in a list of airlines opening new long haul routes ex-LGW.
 
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:02 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 20):
Are we talking about 777s or 744s for this route

B744s
 
fbgdavidson
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:17 pm

AirNZ return to LGW! I remember flying LGW-LAX-LGW in about 1990 with them...

Quoting AerorobNZ (Reply 5):
That's no good. LGW is a dump. Oh well, at least it's another way of getting to London for staff so i can't really complain.

Errr, LGW South is a dump! The North terminal is rather swish!
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planemanofnz
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:43 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 21):
B744s

Would their be enough demand for this type of aircraft daily when NZ already fly AKL-LHR daily. Would they be counting on mainly AKL-HKG passengers and HKG-LGW seperately? Which airport out of LGW and LHR is closer to London City Centre?
 
TR
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:18 pm

My only trip with Air NZ was from Gatwick back in 1992 on ZK-NBT. The Air NZ lounge and service at that time was very nice. I hope that Air NZ will be able to use the North Terminal again.

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 15):
Couldn't agree more. I'll take Gatwick any day! I can typically be in my hire car and on the M23 before I'd even get on the Hertz bus at Heathrow

My experience too. However Heathrow still has the advantage offering many more connecting flight - especially when looking at Air NZ's Star Alliance partners. Not many of them have a strong presence at LGW.

[Edited 2005-12-07 09:19:56]
 
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:20 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 23):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 21):
B744s

Would their be enough demand for this type of aircraft daily when NZ already fly AKL-LHR daily.

Well since NZ will be the only Star carrier on the route and with all the other star members booking their flyers on NZ, then I would say the flight at times could be booked out weeks in advanced, so a B744 could be at times too small.
 
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:40 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 18):
As far as I remember it was always mentioned from our NZ insiders here that NZ already has the slots for another LHR flight and that they jsut have to get back these slots.

AFAIK NZ still has the rights for a daily flight between LHR and JFK in both directions, something they have not used for a few years. I assume that they 'sold' their slot to another airline (Bearded's?) and hence the need to use LGW rather than LHR.

LGW is not a 'dump'. The South Terminal is as good as or better than Terminals 1 and 2 at LHR, and the North Terminal is fine. For people living in the South East and South London, LGW is far easier to reach by both public and private transport than LHR.
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kiwiandrew

RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:50 pm

Quoting BCAL (Reply 26):
NZ still has the rights for a daily flight between LHR and JFK in both directions, something they have not used for a few years.

NZ have never flown JFK-LHR ... .are you sure you are not mixing them up with QF ? I am sure they used to have a SYD-NAN-HNL-SFO-JFK-LHR flight ( or very similar)
 
BCAL
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:57 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 27):
NZ have never flown JFK-LHR

Agreed, but they have the rights under Bermuda II
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
v2fix
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:05 pm

I flew back into Gatwick yesterday.

North Terminal is far from a dump ! Its spacious, fast to get through and no where near as crowded as LHR! From Plane to Car in 20 minutes.

SouthTerminal is a little more crowded and perhaps a little more shabby, but no worse than T1 (or T2) at LHR!!

I wonder if there will be more of an opportunity for AIr NZ to fly into LHR when the *A memebers move to the refurbished T1 in a few years.
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Gemuser
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:11 pm

Quoting BCAL (Reply 28):
Agreed, but they have the rights under Bermuda II

I very, very strongly doubt that! Seeing as BII is a treaty between the UK & US, NZ is not a party to it.

If NZ have these right it is because it is permitted to take off/land at LON on this route by the NZ/UK treaty and it is permitted to take off/land at JFK, on this route by the NZ/US treaty. There is no UK/US treaty about NZ rights.

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kiwiandrew

RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:12 pm

Quoting BCAL (Reply 28):
Agreed, but they have the rights under Bermuda II

does Bermuda II cover fifth freedom flights by non-US/UK airlines ?
 
BCAL
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:16 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 30):
I very, very strongly doubt that! Seeing as BII is a treaty between the UK & US, NZ is not a party to it

Here is an extract from the Eighteenth Report by UK Parliament on the Air Service Agreement between the United Kingdom and the United States

Quote:
The remaining four carriers were based in third countries, and operated flights between the United Kingdom and the US under fifth freedom rights. The airlines concerned were Air India, Aer Lingus, Air New Zealand and Kuwait Airways, which together carried only 1.3 per cent of all passengers on these routes

I think that in the days before jetliners could fly as far as LHR/LAX direct, perhaps JFK was an en route stop for NZ?

Source: here

[Edited 2005-12-07 10:21:53]
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:20 pm

Quoting BCAL (Reply 32):
Here is an extract from the Eighteenth Report by UK Parliament on the Air Service Agreement between the United Kingdom and the United States

Quote:
The remaining four carriers were based in third countries, and operated flights between the United Kingdom and the US under fifth freedom rights. The airlines concerned were Air India, Aer Lingus, Air New Zealand and Kuwait Airways, which together carried only 1.3 per cent of all passengers on these routes

thanks for that BCAL , do you know whether EI ever utilised their 5th freedom rights ? It just seems a bit odd for them to have them when they are in between the two countries ... then again , NZ has rights for SYD-LAX and New Zealand is in between the US and Australia


cheers
 
BCAL
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:26 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 33):
do you know whether EI ever utilised their 5th freedom rights

Afraid not. You will need to ask an a.net member who was employed in UK Civil Aviation during the 1970s. You could email EI - they sometimes do reply to queries like this.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:32 pm

Quoting BCAL (Reply 34):
Afraid not. You will need to ask an a.net member who was employed in UK Civil Aviation during the 1970s. You could email EI - they sometimes do reply to queries like this.

thanks Trevor , I might try that .  thumbsup 
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:46 pm

Hmmm. This is interesting. Would be great news for NZ if it went ahead.
 
aireuropeuk733
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:06 pm

Quoting BCAL (Reply 26):
LGW is not a 'dump'. The South Terminal is as good as or better than Terminals 1 and 2 at LHR, and the North Terminal is fine. For people living in the South East and South London, LGW is far easier to reach by both public and private transport than LHR.

Totally agree BCAL. I had to go to FRA a couple of weeks back and could only go from LHR not LGW. It took longer to drives to LHR than it did to fly to FRA!!

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Gemuser
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:18 pm

Quoting BCAL (Reply 32):
Here is an extract from the Eighteenth Report by UK Parliament on the Air Service Agreement between the United Kingdom and the United States


Quote:
The remaining four carriers were based in third countries, and operated flights between the United Kingdom and the US under fifth freedom rights. The airlines concerned were Air India, Aer Lingus, Air New Zealand and Kuwait Airways, which together carried only 1.3 per cent of all passengers on these routes

I think that in the days before jetliners could fly as far as LHR/LAX direct, perhaps JFK was an en route stop for NZ?

I read your referance. There was some good stuff in there but nowhere in it did I find the statement that NZ operated between the UK & US under BII. As you quoted , they do operate between the two countries "UNDER 5th FREEDOM RIGHTS" You will not find those rights granted under BII, they are granted under the NZ/UK and NZ/US treatys NOT under BII and this referance DOES NOT say they were!

The fifth freedom right of the other airlines are the same granted under two different treatys, NOT BII and the parlimentry committee did not say they were.

[RANT]
Can't you see how insulted NZ (and any other country) would be if its property - air service rights- were the subject of a treaty to which they were NOT a party? They gave both the US and the UK valuable rights from NZ (ie 5th freedom rights from NZ for US & UK airlines) in return for their 5th freedom right LAX-LON (and JKF-LON, if in fact they do have them). To have the UK/US deal in their rights without NZ involvement would be unthinkable.
[/RANT]


Gemuser
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Billy
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:27 pm

In answer to the EI fifth freedom question, I have some recollections. Not quite fifth freedom, but Ei did briefly operate a MAN-SNN-JFK operation using an A330. They also actively used their fifth freedom rights on a large network out of MAN during the 80's and early 90's. I do not think that they ever flew directly from the UK to the US.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:43 pm

Quoting AerorobNZ (Reply 12):
Quoting Runway23 (Reply 6):
LGW is definately not a dump

Actually I think it is - I found a very dated airport, compared to the terminal that NZ currently fly into at LHR at least anyway.

LGW N is far better than 'bombay' (the coloquial name for LHR3)..

Quoting BCAL (Reply 34):
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 33):
do you know whether EI ever utilised their 5th freedom rights

Afraid not. You will need to ask an a.net member who was employed in UK Civil Aviation during the 1970s. You could email EI - they sometimes do reply to queries like this.

EI operated BOS SNN MAN and BFS SNN NYC
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
Gemuser
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:04 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 40):
EI operated BOS SNN MAN and BFS SNN NYC

??? These would be 6th freeom, because they go via the "home" country. Same as SQ's SYD-SIN-LHR flights.

BOS-MAN-SNN & NYC-BFS-SNN would be 5th freedom


Gemuser
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aireuropef100
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:45 pm

Remember that ANZ first started with a twice weekly flight out of Gatwick back in 1982 - that later went thrice weekly before moving to LHR in early 1990's. The used the South Terminal before North opened which they then moved to.

South Terminal is fairly under utilized in the evenings - in the mornings it's packed but plenty of space for an evening departure.
 
Billy
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:02 am

My ANZ network planning sources suggest that ANZ has secured their additional LHR slots. This is about three weeks old so this could have been superceded. However, when I spoke to them they seemed wedded to LHR. Has anything changed over the last three weeks.
 
anstar
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:09 am

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 10):
So how will NZ face the stiff competition from CX,QF,BA nd to an extent VS???



Quoting JoFMO (Reply 18):
There is no feed from anywhere in the UK with BMI to GTW. I would love to choose NZ to HKG from Germany with any feeder flight by LH/BMI.

Perhaps LGW will be sold in as the London flight with no connections ie end to end and LHR will be used if they want to tranfer. I'm sure the bulk of NZ's traffic on this route would have London as their end destiantion anyway
 
richardw
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:18 am

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 4):
I don't think bmi or lufthansa have lots of flights to LGW?

Only bmibaby MME-LGW and Germanwings HAM-LGW
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:44 am

Wasnt there talk of NZ trying AKL-HKG-MAN??

With CX confirming their service to HKG via SVO, how likely is it we'll see NZ operate via LAX to MAN instead?? MAN has a big Star catchment for the rest of Europe, and AFAIK, LAX is top of MAN airports destination wishlist!

And I'm sure I have heard rumours about this before...

7L
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Billy
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:53 am

7LBAC111,
The ANZ service via MAN was never really a starter. It was evaluated against London and lost the race. The next evaluation was LGW vs LHR. LHR won on cost and yield grounds. I understand that ANZ was chasing LHR slots at the last IATA slot co-ordination conference. I heard that they got some passable ones that would allow LHR-SFO-NZ. Unless things have changed I am not sure what the LGW rumours are about. No one wants to reveal much other than to talk about how useless LGW is as a hub (which is truew for ANZ, hence the LHR preference).
 
LGWspeedbird
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:05 am

If they were to come to Gatwick, who would handle them? Am I right in thinking that when they last operated out of LGW they were handled by BA??

LGWspeedbird
upcoming flights LHR-LAX-HNL-SFO-LHR
 
runway23
Posts: 1914
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RE: Air NZ To LGW

Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:14 am

Quoting Richardw (Reply 45):
Only bmibaby MME-LGW and Germanwings HAM-LGW

Scandinavian, Austrian (Lauda),Croatia Airlines, Adria, US Airways, TAP and Centralwings (LOT) also fly to LGW.

[Edited 2005-12-07 18:16:31]

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