killjoy
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Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:13 pm

See this press release.

I'm a bit disappointed about the A340, but I guess they can't get enough planes soon enough otherwise.

Edit: Pictures here.

[Edited 2005-12-07 12:23:20]
 
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scbriml
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:22 pm

Nice order for Finnair and Airbus. A340s in the short term is interesting and slightly surprising! I would have expected an airline ordering A350s but needing shorter term capacity, going for the A330. Given AY's route network, I'm assuming the A343 has better fit range-wise than the A333.

Congrats to AY and Airbus.
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FlySSC
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:24 pm

Greats news !!!  bigthumbsup 
But not very surprising actually ... Finnair already operates around 30 A319/A320/A321, so this order makes sense.


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cricket
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:26 pm

Well, Finnair does want to expand fast and I guess Airbus can promise faster delivery of A340's - I guess Boeing is booked out till 2008 for the T7.
Everyone was wondering how the route to DEL would be operated, I guess we'll see the 343 here. Shucks, I was so hoping for the M11.
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:27 pm

That's indeed a good order and I would have thought too that the A330 would have been ordered instead of the A343E. Good for Finnair and Airbus have landed a great customer in Finnair and with 2011 delivery for the A350 we can still enjoy the MD-11s for many years to come Big grin

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leelaw
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:27 pm

I didn't realize AY was poised to make a major acquisition, interesting choice.
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ka
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:29 pm

Very good news indeed! Though I didn´t expect a Finnair order this early and without a long publically fought battle between A and B.

KA.
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CV747
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:33 pm

Quoting Killjoy (Thread starter):
I'm a bit disappointed about the A340

A friend of mine flew the MD11 for Swissair and is now flying the SWISS A343.
He says that the climb on the A340 is so poor, that if the earth was not round, it would never take off.... and that he misses the MD11 cockpit.


 stirthepot 
 
BestWestern
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:34 pm

This one was kept quiet! Another 9 A350's

Must have been politics, a below cost offering, etc!  Smile

[Edited 2005-12-07 12:36:15]
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kiwiandrew

RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:39 pm

While I know that airlines don't make decisions based on sentiment or loyalty it , historically , AY has not been much of a Boeing customer - they have some 757s but have never had any other Boeings that I can recall ( and please don't offend me by telling me that they have "Boeing" MD-11s or "Boeing" MD-80s) .

I'm just waiting for all the threads from McDonnell Douglas MD-11 lovers who have gone into mourning at the thought that the MD-11 only has another 7 years at AY  cry 
 
Joni
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:46 pm

Hey this is great, it looks like I'll have a chance to ride in an A350 as well.

Regarding the A340s, perhaps ETOPS was a factor over the A330 as well? Flying from Helsinki to Bangkok places you over quite deserted areas for a long time - now they use the MD-11 for those routes. OTOH the A350 will probably be flying those routes later on, so perhaps the A340 simply was more economical.

The A350 also defeated the B787 here, which is interesting.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:46 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 8):
Must have been politics, a below cost offering, etc!

Of course !!! No sensible airline would buy such a crap if it wasn't for politics ...  Wink
 
BestWestern
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:46 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 9):
historically , AY has not been much of a Boeing customer

Nor an Airbus customer prior to the A32x order
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PM
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:50 pm

The A350 always seemed a likely bet at Finnair but I didn't expect an order so soon. It seems the 777/787 combination isn't unbeatable after all.
 
Speedbird2155
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:50 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 2):
Finnair already operates around 30 A319/A320/A321, so this order makes sense

Please explain. Just because an airline has a large number of Airbus for shorthaul doesn't automatically mean that they will go for Airbus on longhaul. For example, look at BA with a larger number of Airbus on shorthaul....that does not mean that it automatically makes sense for BA to order Airbus for longhaul.

Congrats to both Finnair and Airbus.
 
jonathan-l
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:56 pm

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 14):
Just because an airline has a large number of Airbus for shorthaul doesn't automatically mean that they will go for Airbus on longhaul

No, of course. But it does make sense with cross crew qualification and mixed fleet flying.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:57 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 10):
Regarding the A340s, perhaps ETOPS was a factor over the A330 as well?

can't imagine ETOPS is an issue for any of AY's current ( or likely future ) routes - I had a play on Great Circle Mapper ( yes , I know it doesn't necessarily reflect actual flight paths ) and there are many enroute options for a diversion , some a bit basic perhaps , but can't really see any gaps in coverage even if you drop back to old fashioned ETOPS 120
 
MEA-707
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:58 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 12):
Nor an Airbus customer prior to the A32x order

The links with Toulouse were always warm. Finnair loved the Caravelle and flew them longer then any other original flagcarrying operator except Syrianair. The Caravelle can be seen as the A-320 avant la lettre, almost all the european airlines had them and the UK was important for the design or manufacturing of the engines, nose and cockpit.

Kar-Air, their charter airline, bought two A-300s in 1986 which operated for Finnair mainline as well, sort of the same role as the 757s have now.
They also were an early and important operator of the ATR.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
WINGS
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:59 pm

Wow. What a nice order. Glad to see that the good old A340-300E is still managing to atract some interest.

Congratulations to Airbus and Finnar.


http://www01.finnair.com/faye/photobank/A340-300_FINNAIR_CFM-R.jpg

http://www01.finnair.com/faye/photobank/A350-900_Finnair_V02.jpg

So now we have the following orders for the A350.

Finnar 9
Qatar Airways 60
Tap Portugal 12
Tam 8
Air Europa 10
Eurofly 3
Kingfisher 5
US Airways 20
Gecas 10
CIT 5
ILFC 12
ALAFCO 12

TOTAL: 166 Order/Commitments

Regards,
Wings
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FlySSC
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:06 pm

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 14):
Quoting FlySSC (Reply 2):
Finnair already operates around 30 A319/A320/A321, so this order makes sense

Please explain. Just because an airline has a large number of Airbus for shorthaul doesn't automatically mean that they will go for Airbus on longhaul. For example, look at BA with a larger number of Airbus on shorthaul....that does not mean that it automatically makes sense for BA to order Airbus for longhaul

You are right. AF & LH also.
But you can't compare Finnair and BA, or Finnair and AF.
Because of its size and its network it does make sense for an airline like Finnair to operate a fleet with a maximum of commonality to save money.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:12 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 10):
Regarding the A340s, perhaps ETOPS was a factor over the A330 as well?

Presumably ETOPS is not an issue as they selected A350s. Unless they didn't realise the A350 is a twin.  wink 

I suspect it's entirely down to range - the A333 has a range with max pax of 10,500km while the A343's range is 13,350km (which is much closer to the A359's of 13,890km).
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
scandinavian
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:13 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 3):
Everyone was wondering how the route to DEL would be operated, I guess we'll see the 343 here. Shucks, I was so hoping for the M11.

You will have some time to try the MD11.  Smile Finnair will receive their A340 between 2007-08 and the route to Delhi will operated from November next year.

Great news for Finnair, I didn't except this order this year. It must be the last great thing from Finnair CEO Keijo Suila before he retires in January.

Now the big question, when will we hear similar great news from SAS?
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kiwiandrew

RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:16 pm

Quoting Scandinavian (Reply 21):
Now the big question, when will we hear similar great news from SAS?

when they make enough money to pay for new a/c  Wink

There is another thread somewhere (sorry , too lazy to search and post a link ) suggesting that SK may drop intercontinental services within 10 years anyway .
 
CRJ900
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:16 pm

I guess the A343E won over the A332 on capacity issues. AY will have 303 seats in the A343E - now that would be a tight fit for the A332 and reduce the range of the A332.

Also, if the AY A320 Family have CFM56-engines then the A343E makes sense too as it uses the CFM56-engines as well...
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manni
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:17 pm

What a beautiful order. Whoever said that there will be no new customers for the A340-300 is been proven dead wrong.

Commitments/orders for Airbus widebodys have passed the 230 with this order, so far this year.

Looking forward to see Santa Claus painted on these beautiful jets.
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A342
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:18 pm

Congrats to both parties.
As it has been said before, this is no surprise as the A359 is the perfect replacement for MD-11s. It´s bigger than the 789 and I think AY doesn´t need the range advantages of the 787/A358. But I find it also interesting that they go A343. Maybe engine commonality (their A32S are CFM) was a point over the 333 which coud have been used on North America routes.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:23 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 20):
I suspect it's entirely down to range - the A333 has a range with max pax of 10,500km while the A343's range is 13,350km (which is much closer to the A359's of 13,890km).

Considering the position of HEL, does Finnair really need a 4 engines aircraft (A343) with a possible 13.350km range instead of a twin A333 with 10.500 km ?
I don't think so, unless they want to fly nonstop HEL-EZE or HEL-GIG which is quite unlikely to happen ...

I think it is more for financial reasons : The A343 leased or bought second-hand, are much easier (and cheaper) to find on the market thanthe A333.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:30 pm

Quoting Killjoy (Thread starter):
Edit: Pictures here.

Hmm, interesting that one of the A350 images has filename including the phrase "GE".  scratchchin 

Would AY favour GE over RR for their planes?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
killjoy
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:32 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 26):
Considering the position of HEL, does Finnair really need a 4 engines aircraft (A343) with a possible 13.350km range instead of a twin A333 with 10.500 km ?

More range also means more cargo for shorter routes.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:33 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 24):
What a beautiful order. Whoever said that there will be no new customers for the A340-300 is been proven dead wrong.

Don't count your chickens before they hatch. It's an interim order. Finnair made it quite clear that they will dump the A340 as soon as they can. And it's only three frames.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:33 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 27):
Would AY favour GE over RR for their planes?

they had GE engines on the DC-10-30 and then the MD-11 ( and with the 757 they went with PW rather than rolls ) and of course the A319/320/321/340 in or joining the fleet are CFM powered , so I would say GE has a pretty good chance , wouldn't you ?
 
PM
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:38 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 27):
Would AY favour GE over RR for their planes?

It's a long time since Finnair flew RR on anything whereas they had GE on the A300s, DC10s and MD11s. They also chose CFM for their Airbus narrowbodies and even went against the trend and chose PW for their 757s.

Having said that, RR will be looking to sign up their first A350 customer and could be offering a give-away deal. And since these A350s are going to replace the MD11s entirely, there is no long-term reason why Finnair should favour GE. Once their fleet is all A320s (CFM) and A340s (CFM), whatever big fan they hang on their A350s will be a stand alone model in any case.

But my hunch? GE.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:38 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 29):
Don't count your chickens before they hatch. It's an interim order. Finnair made it quite clear that they will dump the A340 as soon as they can. And it's only three frames.

while I can't imagine the A340 having a long term future with AY I am not sure where you feel that they made it quite clear that they will dump the A340 as soon as they can - in fact their press release states that they have the option of ordering more

The Airbus A340 aircraft is a widely used long-haul traffic aircraft
all over the world. The A340-300E aircraft ordered by Finnair have the
most modern cabin with 303 seats. Finnair also has the option of
ordering additional aircraft.


could you please clarify where they made it clear ... 'cos it ain't clear to me  Wink
 
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distanthorizon
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:39 pm

It´s really refreshing to see an somehow unexpected order, specially these days when everyone (me included) seems obcessed with potencial large orders from high profile airliners...

Congratulations to Airbys and Finnair!
Regards
Nelson SE
 
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distanthorizon
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:42 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 29):
Don't count your chickens before they hatch. It's an interim order. Finnair made it quite clear that they will dump the A340 as soon as they can. And it's only three frames.

 Yeah sure
Regards
Nelson SE
 
aerosol
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:46 pm

I find it quite amusing that instead of a major 777 order of Qantas, which some of the experts here agressively predicted for sure- the dead 340 by finnair is ordered, and it might be that Qantas does not order any 777 (a.net rumors) !

Anyway - I have to fly their MD-11 before it is gone - as far as I hear their Finnairs service is good and they have a very competitive pricing on eco!

Cheers!
 
scallar
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:51 pm

Quoting Scandinavian (Reply 21):
Now the big question, when will we hear similar great news from SAS?

Actually... I know that SAS most certainly will order the A350, but I was kinda hoping for them to go for the 787. Ah well, time will tell...
Anyway, what's more important is for SAS to learn from Finnair and order a bunch of E170/E190 right away!

/Scallar
 
757MDE
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:53 pm

Congrats to Finnair

I just hope they keep the MD-11 as long as possible!
btw isn't the "F" in the tail written backwards?... why is it like that?
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kiwiandrew

RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:58 pm

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 37):
I just hope they keep the MD-11 as long as possible!
btw isn't the "F" in the tail written backwards?... why is it like that?

this comes up regularly - when viewed from the left hand side of the a/c it is the right way around , when viewed from the right hand it is the wrong way around , just like when countries which have assymetrical flags ( New Zealand / Australia , the US for example ) represent them on a/c they are usually the 'right way' on the left hand side ( the side the pax board from ) and the 'wrong way' on the right hand side . Imagine that you are looking through the a/c to the back of the design painted on the left hand side
 
Matt27
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:59 pm

Great news for Finnair and Airbus. It's nice to see that Finnair goes for the A350, hopefully more airlines will follow.

Quoting Scandinavian (Reply 21):
Now the big question, when will we hear similar great news from SAS?

One can only hope.  crossfingers 
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na
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:00 pm

Very nice surprise. Especially for the A340, bashing of which many a.netters made a sport of recently.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:05 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 29):
Don't count your chickens before they hatch. It's an interim order. Finnair made it quite clear that they will dump the A340 as soon as they can. And it's only three frames.

Didn't take long did it?  sarcastic 

Please enlighten us as to where Finnair said they would dump the A340s as soon as they can.

Yes it is only three A340s, but the total order is for 12 widebody planes (plus options). Not to be sniffed at.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
manni
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:11 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 29):

Don't count your chickens before they hatch. It's an interim order. Finnair made it quite clear that they will dump the A340 as soon as they can. And it's only three frames.

Amusing how you always find a way to piss on an Airbus order. You must have had a terrible year with all these Airbus orders.  Yeah sure
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Scorpio
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:23 pm

Wow. That one certainly was a bit unexpected! No endless discussions in dozens of threads beforehand, just BAM!, an order! Nice to see that there are still surprises every now and then  

BTW, I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but from two of the drawings on the Finnair site it seems Airbus is considering a bit of a 'redesign' of the A350's nose, at least as far as the window configuration is concerned!

Anyway, congratulations to both Finnair and Airbus!

[Edited 2005-12-07 14:33:33]
 
keesje
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:27 pm

N328KF:
Finnair made it quite clear that they will dump the A340 as soon as they can. And it's only three frames.

Finnair:
The A340-300E aircraft ordered by Finnair have the most modern cabin with 303 seats. Finnair also has the option of ordering additional aircraft.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:28 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 42):
Quoting N328KF (Reply 29):
Don't count your chickens before they hatch. It's an interim order. Finnair made it quite clear that they will dump the A340 as soon as they can. And it's only three frames.

Amusing how you always find a way to piss on an Airbus order. You must have had a terrible year with all these Airbus orders. ?

I do not think that he was pissing on the Airbus order, his comment was clearly directed towards the A340, which he was responding to some of the A340 comments.
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killjoy
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:44 pm

I was the one who concluded that it was an interim order, not Finnair. But seriously, what else could it be - why would anyone order 3 A340-300 and 9 A350-900? Airbus probably sold them for 0 profit just to keep Finnair happy until the A350 is available.

[Edited 2005-12-07 14:47:43]
 
anxebla
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:45 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 26):
The A343 leased or bought second-hand, are much easier (and cheaper) to find on the market thanthe A333.

You're right but so far I know it seems AY will buy those A340-300E new from Tolouse, and with the fact I don't think there is many 343Es in the second-hand market since the 340-300 "Enhanced" is the newest A343

>""press release states: The Airbus A340 aircraft is a widely used long-haul traffic aircraft all over the world. The A340-300E aircraft ordered by Finnair have the most modern cabin with 303 seats. Finnair also has the option of ordering additional aircraft.""<
AIRBUS 320 The world's most advanced single-aisle aircraft
 
BestWestern
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:08 pm

RATI are stating

"along with at least three 303-seat Airbus A340-300Es.

"Finnair says that it is uncertain how long it will retain the A340s.....it will keep them in the fleet for a maximum of ten years, but that the actual operating period could be much shorter."

"the larger Airbus A350-900, which the carrier plans to configure with 314 seats."
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hannes
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RE: Finnair Orders A350 + 3 Interim A340

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:11 pm

How are these planes going to fit to the already congested non-schengen terminal in Helsinki? Do we need to expect some news from the Finnish CAA?

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