SA744
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Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:33 am

In the scheme of things does Air France have a bigger Boeing or Airbus fleet and if they are a large member of the Airbus consortium why do they still use boeing aircraft?
 
Sabena332
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RE: Air France

Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:37 am

Quoting SA744 (Thread starter):
and if they are a large member of the Airbus consortium

Air France is certainly not a member of the Airbus consortium.

Quoting SA744 (Thread starter):
why do they still use boeing aircraft?

They do it like every airline, they buy the aircraft which fits best into their fleet.

Patrick
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lazyshaun
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:40 am

They have way more airbus. Probably 2:1 ratio.
However the 13 or 15 (can't remember) 737's are going soon, and the 747's can't stay forever, especially the 742/3's.
Saying that, they are losing some a340's to make space for BOEING 777's, so their not all that airbus after all.
I came. I saw. I conquered
 
boeingfever777
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:11 am

Current fleet:

The Air France fleet consists of the following aircraft:

* 11 Airbus A318
* 44 Airbus A319
* 67 Airbus A320
* 13 Airbus A321
* 16 Airbus A330
* 20 Airbus A340
* 13 Boeing 737
* 33 Boeing 747
* 25 Boeing 777-200ER
* 10 Boeing 777-300ER

* Airbus A380-861 (10 ordered)
* Boeing 777-300ER (5 on order)
* Boeing 777F (4 on order)
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TaromA380
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:37 am

Quoting SA744 (Thread starter):
if they are a large member of the Airbus consortium why do they still use boeing aircraft?

Because they are secretly testing the opponent's products, to squeeze all secrets & advanced technology.

Air France is not what you think it is.  up 
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:17 am

The remaining B737 should all be retired by the end of 2006/early 2007.

Air France will have then an all Airbus fleet for its short/medium haul : the A320 family, with the A318/A319/A320/A321 covering all its needs in terms of capacity.

Concerning the long-haul fleet, Boeing is largely dominant with the B772ER/B773ER, & B744 against "only" 36 Airbus (16 A332 + 20 A343)
 
roseflyer
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:23 am

Air France definitely has an odd ball long haul fleet. They operate almost all of the main long haul planes. The A330, A340, 777, 747 and soon the A380 (and had 767s at one point in time). Definitely the opposite of fleet commonality. I am extremely confused as to what direction they want to head. Or is it a political move to operate everything.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
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American 767
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:46 am

RoseFlyer, fleet commonality isn't the only issue as to what aircraft to order, engine choice is another issue, also it is what aircraft would suit best the airline in terms of pax/cargo capacity and range. They chose the B777 over the A340-500/600 for one reason: the B777 product is fitted with GE engines and the A345/346 probably is not. Air France wants to focus on only one engine supplier: General Electric.
The Classic 747's will be gone by the end of next year, and if you look at Air France future fleet plan, the next aircraf that they will phase out is the Airbus A340 eventhough that one is still young. They will have a long haul fleet consisting of B777's, A330's and A380's, those will be operated on routes which see more business pax than leisure pax, the 747-400's (13 of them remaining in pax config I believe) will continue to fly for a few more years probably until early next decade, and they will be seen on leasure destinations. What will happen is this: once the Classic 747's leave, the 400's will take over the routes flown out of ORY to leasure destinations and the A380's as well as additional 777's will take over some intercontinental routes which were flown with the 744 out of CDG. The Freighter section of Air France currently has B747-400F's and as stated above B777F's on order.
FLYSSC, thanks for your info. You are a very good source of info about Air France. I would be curious to know when the final B737 flight will take place, and from where. The only thing I know is it will arrive in CDG. I would like to fly on the final flight.

Ben Soriano
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FlySSC
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:04 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
Air France definitely has an odd ball long haul fleet



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
Definitely the opposite of fleet commonality

 wideeyed 

3 different types of aircraft for all the long-haul network of an airline like Air France, you find that "odd" and "opposite of fleet commonality" ???

BA has the same ... 767/777/747
LH : B747/A333/A343/A346/A300-600
KL : B747/A330/MD-11/B767
CO : 767/DC10/777/757
EK : 777/A345/A330/A310
NW : DC10/B767/A330
SQ : 747/777/A345/A310
TG : A330/A340/747/777/MD11

etc ...
 
willyj
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:47 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 8):
3 different types of aircraft for all the long-haul network of an airline like Air France, you find that "odd" and "opposite of fleet commonality" ???

BA has the same ... 767/777/747
LH : B747/A333/A343/A346/A300-600
KL : B747/A330/MD-11/B767
CO : 767/DC10/777/757
EK : 777/A345/A330/A310
NW : DC10/B767/A330
SQ : 747/777/A345/A310
TG : A330/A340/747/777/MD11

etc ...

Many of these are wrong:
CO - no more DC10s, so they have 3 aircraft, with very little overlap.
NW - no 767s ever, but they do have 747s. the 330s are replacing their DC10s.
SQ - has retired all A310s, and 345s are a small fleet for 2 specific routes.
etc...

I think you misunderstood the point. AF has a large fleet of 343s and 772s, which is odd. Normally airlines choose one or the other because they offer similar sizes, ranges, etc. I agree TG and EK have odd fleets as well, but the rest of the airlines you mentioned have generally 3 types of longhaul planes, each one a different size. Also, the LH AB6s are for short to medium haul routes around Europe.
 
anxebla
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:18 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
I am extremely confused as to what direction they want to head. Or is it a political move to operate everything.



Quoting American 767 (Reply 7):
They chose the B777 over the A340-500/600 for one reason: the B777 product is fitted with GE engines and the A345/346 probably is not. Air France wants to focus on only one engine supplier: General Electric.

Not political move or just one reason.
The key to understand this matter is Snecma Moteurs of France, a French company. AF which is a National carrier highly controlled by the French government is always supporting the engineering "made in France" in companies such as SNECMA ...which contribute to the France's high technology in mechanical engineering development.

And SNECMA (Société Nationale d'Etude et de Construction de Moteurs d'Aviation) is a GE industrial partner = CFM International = joint company of Snecma Moteurs, France and General Electric Company, U.S.A.

ALL AF fleet is powered by CFM (737, A320 familiy, A343) or by GE, the main partner of Snecma (777s, for instance)

...Air France's A380 will be with the Engine Alliance GP7200. Engine Alliance was founded in 1996 by GE and P&W, but others companies like the German MTU Aero Engines, the Belgian Techspace Aero, and of course Snecma of France also are industrial partners

Quoting Willyj (Reply 9):
AF has a large fleet of 343s and 772s, which is odd.

AF has always said 343s and 772s are differents planes for a different mission/market target
AIRBUS 320 The world's most advanced single-aisle aircraft
 
roseflyer
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:27 am

Quoting Anxebla (Reply 10):
AF has always said 343s and 772s are differents planes for a different mission/market target

AF may feel that way, but not many other airlines do. Most airlines operate either the 777 or A340, not both. The two are almost direct competitors. AF has made their 777s and A340s serve different targets. They configured the A340s to be optimal for low yielding routes and 777s for high yielding routes. However AF could accomplish the same thing by operating a single fleet type and just configuring some planes differently kind of like how other airlines operate multiple configurations for a single fleet type like LH.

I also think that it is a bit of a stretch to say that the varied fleet is solely because of engine choices. If that is true, then AF could have gone for the A343 or 772, but not both. Also wouldn't AF also have an allegiance towards Airbus, since Airbus is so integral with the French economy?
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
anxebla
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:42 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 11):
I also think that it is a bit of a stretch to say that the varied fleet is solely because of engine choices

The "varied" fleet is NOT solely because of engine choices, but it is one between them. Anyway I am not Jean C. Spinnetta, the AF's CEO  Wink

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 11):
Also wouldn't AF also have an allegiance towards Airbus, since Airbus is so integral with the French economy?

Airbus is an European Consortium (EADS 80% & BAE-Systems 20%) and SNECMA is totally French
AIRBUS 320 The world's most advanced single-aisle aircraft
 
SWISSER
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:23 pm

If you have a fleet that large,
it is ok to cover your costs to aquire various different type of aircrafts.
You do maintenance on more then 10 aircraft (maybe 20 or more!) per fleet type and then it does'nt really matter anymore because you benefit more from the aircraft themselves rather then the non-flying costs.

I have read a study of LH that they could easely introduce for instance 777's into there fleet where once predicted more difficult to do costwise because of there large structure.
(not argumenting they are going to order some!)

Anyway AF has a very good structure now for there maintenance and training,
and regarding mid sized to big liners, they could aquire virtually everything now from A or B without extra costs, where some other airlines have it more difficult to do.

That's maybe the reason why I like this airline!
What time is top of descent?
 
ikramerica
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:31 pm

And you can also farm out maintenance of one type in your fleet to a third party while taking in maintenance of another type in your fleet from other airlines. It can even be a net positive to do it that way. As an example, you could hire out the major service on your 777s, but do all the 340 maintenance yourself, as well as doing 340 service for other smaller airlines.
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SA744
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:54 pm

Thanks guys this is great just nice to get perspective. It is also strange as they have now bumped their flights to 10 a week to JNB we get a mix of equipment which is always adds a spin to the days spotting never know what you gonna get. Use a mix of A340 and 744
 
ElGreco
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:55 pm

Interesting discussion:
- most GE/SNECMA engines: right
- 2nd word larger maintenance capacity, so only possible, when you used and maintained both A and B (in the maintenance team, they have their A or B specialty indicate on their business card) so for that reason they know really well from deep inside both A and B ;
- AF family planes choice always based mainly on technical reasons and not at on Political one (even if these pressure exist, it's typically French and US way).

Just one comment in addition:

AF maintenance take care of their plane like "Vintage car owner", so even if they consider today B777 better than A340 (especially -200 which is consider by them underpowered), they will keep it up to their 20-25 years.

The 747 will disappear replaced by B777 and A380 effect, except B747F.
When you are right alone, you are wrong
 
773AF
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:48 am

Starting from next year, 2006, AF will progressively replace their old 747s by new 777-300ER on the Caribbean and Indian ocean routes. As for the A340's I really doubt they will last until their 20-25 years in the fleet. The A330s and additional 777s will take over.
Regarding the cargo, it will be the same I guess with the old 747F as we will see the 777F and for sure some A380F in AF fleet.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:29 am

Quoting 773AF (Reply 17):
Regarding the cargo, it will be the same I guess with the old 747F as we will see the 777F and for sure some A380F in AF fleet.

No A380F in AF's fleet.
All the remaining B742F will be retired by 2008.
AF is already operating 5 B744ERF. More should be added.
3 B744 PAX will be soon converted in All freighters (2 in 2007 - 1 in 2008)

+ the B772LRF of which AF will be the launch company.

Concerning the PAX a/c, the A343 & the B777 are more complementary rather than competitors.
The B772ER are used on the premium routes with more Business traffic
They will be doon equipped with 4P/49J/211Y (Config. now is 12P/56J/202Y), while the First class has been removed on the A343 with two new configurations : 36J/236Y or 30J/261Y
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:29 am

Quoting Willyj (Reply 9):
SQ - has retired all A310s, and 345s are a small fleet for 2 specific routes.

Still, even for 2 specific routes, it's another a/c type. And they had A343 until recently ...



Quoting Willyj (Reply 9):
Also, the LH AB6s are for short to medium haul routes around Europe.

Now yes. But until recently, they were used on Long-haul also, especially to the Middle East.

Quoting Willyj (Reply 9):
I think you misunderstood the point. AF has a large fleet of 343s and 772s, which is odd. Normally airlines choose one or the other

CX, OS, SQ & EK does/did operate both B772 and A343 (until 2004 for SQ)
 
ikramerica
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:36 am

Does AF take in maintenance from other companies on 340s and 777s? I know some african airlines send their jets to AF. It sounds like they maintain both the 777 and the 340 themselves...

This kind of operation can also make fleet choices easier, since they make money off other airlines maintenance and can afford to keep technicians available for any aircraft they want.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
irelayer
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:42 am

Maybe they just keep buying planes b/c the old ones get dirty?

-IR
 
SWISSER
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:56 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
And you can also farm out maintenance of one type in your fleet to a third party while taking in maintenance of another type in your fleet from other airlines. It can even be a net positive to do it that way. As an example, you could hire out the major service on your 777s, but do all the 340 maintenance yourself, as well as doing 340 service for other smaller airlines.

Yes exactly!
AFM or Air France Maintenance does a lot of third party work too BTW!
What time is top of descent?
 
globetrekker
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:12 am

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 22):
Yes exactly!
AFM or Air France Maintenance does a lot of third party work too BTW!

That's correct, but it's called AFI (Air France industries). AFI does maintenance on the A340 and A330 to the likes of Virgin Atlantic, Air Mauritius, China Eastern, Sri Lankan, Airbus Asset Management, ILFC and Air China to name a few.

Air France Industries

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SWISSER
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:49 am

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 21):
Maybe they just keep buying planes b/c the old ones get dirty?

-IR

Well If they keep making profit like they do now, they could possibly do that soon!

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 18):
Concerning the PAX a/c, the A343 & the B777 are more complementary rather than competitors.
The B772ER are used on the premium routes with more Business traffic
They will be doon equipped with 4P/49J/211Y (Config. now is 12P/56J/202Y), while the First class has been removed on the A343 with two new configurations : 36J/236Y or 30J/261Y

That is interesting too,
you dedicate one aircraft type for "mass load" and another for regular traffic,
If you do a quick calculation of the yield profit from both types,
let's say a Y ticket is 600€, a J is 5000€ and a P is 10000€,
the (virtual assumed!);
B772 will generate max 411600€ per flight.
A343 (36J)= 321600€
A343 (30J)= 306600€

BTW, I took these references from the website,
it is again noted that the same ticket directly from CDG - LAX - CDG in May or June gives me around 5000€ in J and the same ticket from BRU with the TGV costs me 3000€ in J and 7000€ in P instead of 10k,
BRU <-/-/-/T-G-V/-/-/-> CDG is just a 1H drive straight in T2 and that delivers you a lot of "discount to keep you".
What time is top of descent?
 
JAM747
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:43 am

Could AF be a customer for the 747-800?
 
bomber996
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:08 pm

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 25):
Could AF be a customer for the 747-800?

As long as it has the option of GE or SNECMA engines I dont see why not. I also heard that they are looking at the new RRJ which has an engines 50% made by SNECMA, which is a French Company.

Peace  box 
Two biggest lies in aviation... "I'm from the FAA and I'm here to help you." & "Traffic in sight."
 
jumboforever
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:24 pm

While using GE/SNECMA engine might be part of the problem, there is a very simple reason why AF bought 777 while they were already operating 340.

While in the middle of its terrible financial crisis is the 90s, AF had cancelled, postponed, switched orders with Boeing many times. As a consequence, they had a huge deposit of hundreds of millions USD that would be lost if they didn't order something from Boeing. Thus the 777 orders.

If you are interested in AF's fleet, I recommend the following website.
http://airtransportbiz.free.fr/AFsection.html

This site explains very well why AF operates both type.

Regards,

JumboForever
 
ikramerica
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:56 pm

Quoting JumboForever (Reply 27):
As a consequence, they had a huge deposit of hundreds of millions USD that would be lost if they didn't order something from Boeing. Thus the 777 orders.

well seemed to work out in the long run, as now they are loading up on 773ERs rather than 346s and never might have made that choice had they not had to buy the 772s over additional 343s in the 90s, correct?

Does AF do maintenance on the 772s or send them out?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:27 pm

Quoting JumboForever (Reply 27):
While in the middle of its terrible financial crisis is the 90s, AF had cancelled, postponed, switched orders with Boeing many times. As a consequence, they had a huge deposit of hundreds of millions USD that would be lost if they didn't order something from Boeing. Thus the 777 orders.

That might be correct. However, AF has continued to order many additional 777's beyond the initial order. So clearly AF is happy with the 777.

Hence, it would be incorrect to say the 777 order was a reluctant one to avoid the loss of deposits.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
irelayer
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:54 pm

Quoting JumboForever (Reply 27):
This site explains very well why AF operates both type.

Very interesting site thanks for sharing...

-IR
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:41 pm

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 25):
Could AF be a customer for the 747-800?

For sure : NO.
AF has 10 A380 on order + 5 oprtions.
The actual B744 will be very reduced in the coming years (and possibly retired in a medium term), replaced by B773ER.
AF doesn't need a B747-800.

Quoting JumboForever (Reply 27):
While in the middle of its terrible financial crisis is the 90s, AF had cancelled, postponed, switched orders with Boeing many times. As a consequence, they had a huge deposit of hundreds of millions USD that would be lost if they didn't order something from Boeing. Thus the 777 orders.



Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 29):
That might be correct. However, AF has continued to order many additional 777's beyond the initial order. So clearly AF is happy with the 777.

This is correct.
You must remember that AF was the launch customer of the A340 (with LH).
At the end of the 80s, AF was in a very bad situation, with an old fleet of B741 & B742 for the long haul + a few A300B4 for Africa/Middle East network.

The only other choice for AF to replace the B741/2 was the B767 (too small) or ... the brand new A340.

When AF bought UTA in the early 90s, AF inherited also of a big order for B767 from UTA to replace its DC10 and for its subsidiary Aéromaritime.
AF took delivery of a few of them but switched from the 767 to 777 not to loose the deposit.
The B777 was a "project" at that time ... nobody could predict the success of a/c and its evolution.

It is clearly true that, today, the B772ER/B773ER is AF's favourite aircraft, but AF can't simply just dump a pretty recent fleet of 20 A340 !

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 28):
Does AF do maintenance on the 772s or send them out?

Both A340 & B777 are maintained by AF.
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:02 pm

Intersting, as until the mid 90s, AF had generally been a 100% loyal Airbus customer, where the Airbus product was available, and the fact that such an Airbus loyalist like AF has kept ordering the 77W instead of the A346 is quite a blow to the latter's image.

I suppose the equivalent in the UK is the BA purchase of BCAL bringing in it's A320s, which 10 years later led to a breakthrough order from BA for the type...
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ElGreco
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:07 pm

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 30):
Quoting JumboForever (Reply 27):
This site explains very well why AF operates both type.

Very interesting site thanks for sharing...

-IR

Thank you too for JumboForever, I will take time to read completly all these historical information about Air France. I'm interested to know if there is some equivalent information/history for other major Airlines (I mean same quality minimum).

Furthermore, good think for Air France partners Delta, Northwest and Alitalia to see that even the Froggies was able to restructure an Airlines.

Good Luck for them!!!
When you are right alone, you are wrong
 
anxebla
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:47 am

Quoting JumboForever (Reply 27):
While in the middle of its terrible financial crisis is the 90s, AF had cancelled, postponed, switched orders with Boeing many times.

Do you know when AF did the first order to Boeing prior the terrible financial crisis is the 90s?? And for which one plane was made that initial order?
AIRBUS 320 The world's most advanced single-aisle aircraft
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:05 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 32):
Intersting, as until the mid 90s, AF had generally been a 100% loyal Airbus customer, where the Airbus product was available,

Not really true.
Air France was "loyal" to Airbus when they didn't have the "choice" (orders imposed by the Politics).
Until the mid-90s, AF did buy the A300/A310 and the A340 but never bought the A300-600 ...
Actually, AF has always been very loyal to Boeing since the 50s : AF was the first foreign airline to operate the B707 (after QUANTAS), never bought any Douglas Jet, was later an early customer for the B727, and preferred the B732 to the French built Dassault Mercure, despite the pressure from the Gov.

You must know also that when the Government called Christian BLANC, and later J.C Spinetta as AF CEO to save the company, they accepted with only one condition : Being free to buy whatever aircraft type was needed, without any political pressure or/and consideration.
 
anxebla
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:23 am

I want to ask again when AF did that first order to Boeing prior the "terrible" financial crisis in the 90s. It is just curiosity since I don't know nothing about this subject.
AIRBUS 320 The world's most advanced single-aisle aircraft
 
Pihero
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:37 am

A small addition to the - as usual - excellent posts from FlySSC ;

Air france fleet policy is generally regarded as the result of the hub system. That's not quite true.
One of the decisions that impacted so much on the airline results was the decision to fly direct routes, going away from multi-sector flights or milk runs. At that moment, the average sector length went from six-and-something hours to a whopping 9 hours and fifty minutes.
The second decision, which run contrary to all AF's culture was the "one route, one aircraft type" philosophy, cutting down on out-of-base maintenance, spares ...etc...
It then became obvious that a single type of long hauler would not initially cater for all the route requirements :a triple 7 in hot and high airports could not compete with the 340 for mass transport and a 340 wouldn't begin to compete with the Triple 7 for cargo hauling capacity...

Nowadays, with very advanced yield management programs, the airline can really fine tune its requirements so the above have been altered. But not by much.
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YULMRS
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RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:00 am

For me the main problem is the regional fleet. They have BAE-146 (cityjet) F70, F100 (Régional) and CRJ-700 (Brit air). A fleet harmonisation is required, that's 4 types and almost the same size ... I think ERJ-170 and 190 are a good replacement for that fleet.

Quoting Boeingfever777 (Reply 3):
* Airbus A380-861 (10 ordered)
* Boeing 777-300ER (5 on order)
* Boeing 777F (4 on order)

AF also has 7 A318 on order.

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 25):
Could AF be a customer for the 747-800?

Could be ... but i don't see them getting 748s.

It will be interesting to see if they order the A350. A358 could be a good replacement for the A332 (but the A332 fleet is young) and the 359 is a perfect replacement for the A343 (which are older). They may order it receiving A359 first and A358 later.

Let's wait and see
To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
 
phollingsworth
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:05 am

RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:41 am

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 38):

Could be ... but i don't see them getting 748s.

It will be interesting to see if they order the A350. A358 could be a good replacement for the A332 (but the A332 fleet is young) and the 359 is a perfect replacement for the A343 (which are older). They may order it receiving A359 first and A358 later.

Let's wait and see

If AF orders the 748I, it will not be for a little while longer. They will want to review the performance of their current a/c mix (773, 388) to determine if there really is a gap in capacity. I believe that there is a significantly higher chance that they will order the 748F at some point.

The 350 is a completely different question. When AF order the 332 there was no Boeing a/c with the capability set that AF wanted. When they go to replace the 343s and 332s there are two competing a/c (787 & 350). Furthermore, by this point at least one of the aircraft will probably be in service (787). At this point AF will decide solely on the merits of the two aircraft as it sees them (i.e. which has the higher project NPV at the time of order). There is no real advantage to ordering the 350 over the 787 when it comes to fleet commonality, as they also have a significant 777 flight crew capability.
 
YULMRS
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:10 am

RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:54 pm

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 39):
There is no real advantage to ordering the 350 over the 787 when it comes to fleet commonality, as they also have a significant 777 flight crew capability.

You're right about the 748F, they are likely to order some ... but no pax version. They can even replace the 772 by A359 ... Some will start getting old

No, I'm joking.

But they will need an airbus replacement, I mean that French PAX prefer airbus ... And AF management know it. I don't think AF will choose Boeing again if Airbus has an equivalent product (we all know that the 777 is more efficient than the A340 family). But the A350 and 787 will be equivalent aircrafts, and AF doesn't need new A/Cs before 2010 or 2012 ... so waiting for the A350 is not a problem.

I think we should also consider the fact that AF and KLM will tend to have common orders and fleets. The question is not only about AF, but about AF-KLM ...

[Edited 2005-12-17 04:56:40]

[Edited 2005-12-17 04:59:42]
To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
 
DarthRandall
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:17 am

RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:24 pm

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 40):
I mean that French PAX prefer airbus

I was under the impression that most French passengers were like most American passengers in that they can't really tell the difference between, for example, an A320 and a 737 and do not much care either way. Is this not the case? Besides, Air France doesn't only serve French passengers; there are more than a few of us from the States who like to fly with them also. But then, as I said before, we wouldn't care if they were Airbus planes anyway.
Ninjas can kill anyone they want! Ninjas cut off heads all the time and don't even think twice about it.
 
YULMRS
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:10 am

RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:59 pm

Quoting DarthRandall (Reply 41):
was under the impression that most French passengers were like most American passengers in that they can't really tell the difference between, for example, an A320 and a 737 and do not much care either way. Is this not the case? Besides, Air France doesn't only serve French passengers; there are more than a few of us from the States who like to fly with them also. But then, as I said before, we wouldn't care if they were Airbus planes anyway.

Ok, I agree with you, most PAX don't care. But, believe me, if you want to fly ORY-TLS (ok, this one is a bit ... Extreme) with an empty plane, do it with a 737, and it won't be the same with an A32X ... The same applies to all French PAX, very few PAX care about the A/C, but 90% of those who care prefer Airbus ...

[Edited 2005-12-17 06:05:34]
To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
 
DarthRandall
Posts: 294
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:17 am

RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:14 pm

I'll agree with you on the A320 and the 737, particularly the older models. The NG ones are nice, though. However, I think the 747s are great to fly on, provided you don't get stuck in the center row of steerage. The 767s are great for passengers also (who doesn't love 2-3-2?), so I would say that each company has more comfortable planes than the other in different categories.
Ninjas can kill anyone they want! Ninjas cut off heads all the time and don't even think twice about it.
 
TGV
Posts: 717
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:37 pm

RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:00 pm

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 42):
Ok, I agree with you, most PAX don't care. But, believe me, if you want to fly ORY-TLS (ok, this one is a bit ... Extreme) with an empty plane, do it with a 737, and it won't be the same with an A32X ... The same applies to all French PAX, very few PAX care about the A/C, but 90% of those who care prefer Airbus ...

True and why? This is not a nationalistic thing but something related to cabin comfort (that everybody notices, usually).

Look at cabin comfort in ECO:
320 are superior to 737 this is generally accepted except by some Boeing fundamentalists, so the choice is Airbus.

AF long haul fleet is composed of B747 (some 743 left and 744), with a 3-4-3 config, B777 with a 3-3-3 config, and 343/332 with a 2-4-2 config.
Obviously (there are regular threads on this topic going on, but just think a little), the 2-4-2 config is far superior, without "double excuse seats".
Add to this the exceptional silence of 343 cabins (less true for 332), and you have your explanation: the AF airbusses offer better cabin comfort than the AF Boeing.

This might change in the future:
- A 388 lower deck will be a 3-4-3 config, so no advantage on the B747.
- B787 may have a 2-4-2 config, so it will be at par with airbuses, and possibly better, as the cabin width is a little larger. Of course this will change if the config finally chosen for the 787 is 3-3-3.
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5192
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:38 pm

Quoting TGV (Reply 44):
AF long haul fleet is composed of B747 (some 743 left and 744), with a 3-4-3 config, B777 with a 3-3-3 config, and 343/332 with a 2-4-2 config.
Obviously (there are regular threads on this topic going on, but just think a little), the 2-4-2 config is far superior, without "double excuse seats".
Add to this the exceptional silence of 343 cabins (less true for 332), and you have your explanation: the AF airbusses offer better cabin comfort than the AF Boeing.

True.
And in Business Class, The A343/A332 are configured 2 x 2 x 2, instead of the "terrible" 2 x 3 x 2 in the B777/B744.

When I talk with AF "loyal" Frequent flyer, a majority says they prefere the A343/A332 over the B777 (whether they are French or not).
Most of the other PAX (French or not) just don't care ...
 
anxebla
Posts: 1696
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:31 am

RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:56 am

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 38):
For me the main problem is the regional fleet. They have BAE-146 (cityjet) F70, F100 (Régional) and CRJ-700 (Brit air)

Since CityJet, Régional and Brit Air are Air France's franchises and independent companies I don't know where the problem is. By the way, travelling in the CityJet's BAE-146 is an entire pleasure

Quoting TGV (Reply 44):
Look at cabin comfort in ECO:
320 are superior to 737 this is generally accepted except by some Boeing fundamentalists, so the choice is Airbus.

Even some Boeing fundementalists start to ..."voir la lumière"  Wink
AIRBUS 320 The world's most advanced single-aisle aircraft
 
YULMRS
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:10 am

RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:41 am

Quoting Anxebla (Reply 46):
Since CityJet, Régional and Brit Air are Air France's franchises and independent companies I don't know where the problem is. By the way, traveling in the CityJet's BAE-146 is an entire pleasure

City Jet ? Régional ? Brit AIr ? Independent, since when ???? No, they are entirely owned by AF-KLM. (sorry, in French)

May be their BAE-146 are a pleasure, but they are old and gaz guzzling ...
To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
 
anxebla
Posts: 1696
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:31 am

RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:15 am

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 47):
City Jet ?

from your link: >""CityJet, Une compagnie régionale située en Irlande""< (CityJet, a regional airline from Ireland)

>""Elle est filiale à 100 % d'Air France depuis 2000""< (It is an AF 100% subsidiary company since 2000)

IB regional/Air Nostrum is also an IB 100% subsidiary company, but they are an independent airline from Iberia. Is this not the same case? franchises are indepent companies.
AIRBUS 320 The world's most advanced single-aisle aircraft
 
TGV
Posts: 717
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:37 pm

RE: Air France Fleet Question

Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:17 am

Quoting Anxebla (Reply 46):
Even some Boeing fundementalists start to ..."voir la lumi�re" Wink

�Verdad? �Me encanta aprenderlo!  Wink
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans

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