md90fan
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Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:27 am

Will NW ever operate the Airbus A318 or the Canadair CRJ-700( or even E-170) in the future with the 318 it can share a common type rating/commonality with the 319/320's and the CRJ-700 would fit in well with the NW Airlink family to replace the ARJs(??) and provide NW with a new 70 seater, also commonality with CRJ-200/440  Smile Just a thought since NW is skating on thin ice right now  Sad
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isitsafenow
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:33 am

Place your bets on the Bombardier C model......
safe
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CIDFlyer
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:33 am

I would like to see NW order some sort of 70 seater. The E70's from what I have heard are supposed to be great (they certainly look like a mainline plane from the pictures I have seen), but the CR7 would have more commonality with the CRJs. Also, I have heard the CR7 is more comfortable than the CR2's (i.e. windows placed higer).
 
ikramerica
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:39 am

If NWA were smart they'd replace the DC9s with E190s, and also add E170s to the fleet. I'd love to see those birds in NWA colors. Even though they fly the A320 family, the A318 isn't a good choice for large scale fleet replacement, it's more for smaller companies who need a few smaller planes as well as 319,320 and 321s. NW doesn't really need to benefit from fleet commonality with the A320 series if they are going to get 150+ E170/190s. That generates it's own economy of scale, plus they can pay pilots less to fly them (sorry pilots, but that's life).

edit: anyone know the breakdown of DC9 models they fly by numbers? I assume the 50s are best replaced by 319s, the 30s and 40s by 190/95s, and the AVROs by 170/75s.

[Edited 2005-12-10 01:49:03]
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DLKAPA
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:41 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 1):
Place your bets on the Bombardier C model......

Especially since Bombardier already scrapped the plan? Personally, I'd look very closely down in South America for a nice E90/95 package.
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md90fan
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:46 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
If NWA were smart they'd replace the DC9s with E190s, and also add E170s to the fleet. I'd love to see those birds in NWA colors. Even though they fly the A320 family, the A318 isn't a good choice for large scale fleet replacement, it's more for smaller companies who need a few smaller planes as well as 319,320 and 321s. NW doesn't really need to benefit from fleet commonality with the A320 series if they are going to get 150+ E170/190s. That generates it's own economy of scale, plus they can pay pilots less to fly them (sorry pilots, but that's life).

True. But NW is never gonna replace there Diesal Nines  wink  But the E-Jets probally will better on the short hops to (DTW-LAN,TVC,GRB,GRR for example although it should really be a DASH-8Q400)  Smile Also if ever replaced will the E-Jets be restricted on the DTW-PBI route?
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isitsafenow
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:28 am

DLKAPA....wow..thanks for tipping me off. I see that now with a tad bit of research. It looks like that talk in October with NW didn't get Bombardier where they needed to be for the 100 airplane launch customer they was hoping for.
Ok, my chips are now on the EM-190/195.

thanks again...
safe  wave 
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Mir
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:34 am

I think that the DC-9s will be replaced by EMB-195s, and perhaps a few A319s/320s if NW feels that the extra capacity and range would be useful.

As for an Avro replacement, the Dash 8-Q400 would be a good choice, or the EMB-170. Yes, the CRJ700 is out there, but the EMB-170 is much more comfortable from a passenger standpoint, and the Q400 has very good economics

-Mir
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lightsaber
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:45 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 1):
Place your bets on the Bombardier C model......

Not my bet. NW needs aircraft *much* sooner than the C-series.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
If NWA were smart they'd replace the DC9s with E190s, and also add E170s to the fleet.

 checkmark  Although I would quibble and say about 25% of the DC9 routes should be replaced with an A319.

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 4):
Especially since Bombardier already scrapped the plan?

Not scrapped yet. Close, but not yet. You had better believe for a NW order they would start up the process tomorrow! But see my first comment...

Lightsaber
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ikramerica
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:30 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 8):
   Although I would quibble and say about 25% of the DC9 routes should be replaced with an A319.

Hey, rather than quibble, why not read the end of my post, edited before you posted? It says:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
anyone know the breakdown of DC9 models they fly by numbers? I assume the 50s are best replaced by 319s, the 30s and 40s by 190/95s, and the AVROs by 170/75s.

See? I agree with you. Or do you agree with me? I forget...

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
As for an Avro replacement, the Dash 8-Q400 would be a good choice, or the EMB-170. Yes, the CRJ700 is out there, but the EMB-170 is much more comfortable from a passenger standpoint, and the Q400 has very good economics

I like the E175 as it would be common with the E190 making for easy swapping on many routes. Getting an initial fleet of 100 E195/E175s, combined with a few more A319s to replace the DC9-50s routes that really need that capacity, would be a great forward thinking move for NW. If they had the money.

But I could see some Q400s as well since they fit with the CRJs they run now, and are best in the very short runs of the upper midwest. Plus getting Q400s would make "fleet replacement" go faster, since they'd be counting on two suppliers.
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BR715-A1-30
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:34 pm

I don't even think NWA will be taking delivery of the 787s they have ordered. I wouldn't be placing bets on any new orders anytime soon, and if I were the BK judge, I would order them to retire 30% of their OLDEST airplanes, and cut back their most non-profitable routes.
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Indy
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:51 pm

The one I had heard possibly involved an agreement or some sort with Republic which is getting a number of these jets. It was either the E-170 or something similar. That was speculation. But it would make sense. Republic is getting all these new jets. The question is who are they going to fly them for?
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ikramerica
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:04 pm

Exactly. I didn't mean to imply that NW would own the jets directly, but that NW as a company would be flying E170s and E190s (including the regional ops), but that would still allow them to retire the DC9s in the 100 seat size should they have Republic or another operating E190/95s fro them.

As for a BK judge forcing them not to take any new jets 4 years from now, let's hope NW is either out of BK or out of it's misery by then.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
aviatortj
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:43 pm

Well before Richard jumped ship, one of his retirement plans called for getting rid of the DC-9-50s just to dump capacity and save some dough. Shortly after that, in October 2003 I believe, that plan was changed around, obviously. Perhaps inside NWA, they are still kicking around the idea of just pulling the D95 and forgetting about adding anything else.

I think NWA also has many other bridges to cross before they think about ordering new planes. Any orders with C or E series planes are going to alienate employee groups, especially the pilots and FA's that will be getting cut to Newco. Bottom line is, nobody on here has a clue about what is going to happen until we see the press release from Eagan.
 
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:30 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
Hey, rather than quibble, why not read the end of my post, edited before you posted? It says:

Fair enough, I had your post on screen for a bit, so I missed the edit before sending my reply. Touche'

Lightsaber
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IDAWA
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:01 pm

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 10):
if I were the BK judge, I would order them to retire 30% of their OLDEST airplanes, and cut back their most non-profitable routes.

Oldest plane doesn't always mean most expensive plane. A DC-9 is more expensive in terms of fuel consumption and maintenance, but it doesn't cost in terms of lease rates, which for the A320 family are usually fairly high. Furthermore, the DC-9 has a lower MTOW than the A320 family, so handling fees are cheaper. In terms of total costs, an A319 may be MORE expensive for the airline than a DC-9.
If I were the BK judge, I would order them to retire some of their most expensive airplanes, most likely the ones with least favorable leasing rates, and cut back their most non-profitable routes.

I-DAWA.
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charlipr
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:35 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
Yes, the CRJ700 is out there, but the EMB-170 is much more comfortable from a passenger standpoint, and the Q400 has very good economics

I heard from a friend that use to work in Piedmont Airlines, that Bombardier visited them to demonstrate the Q400 and were told that that plane could break even with 30 pax. Amazing!!!
 
md90fan
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:27 am

Quoting IDAWA (Reply 15):
Oldest plane doesn't always mean most expensive plane. A DC-9 is more expensive in terms of fuel consumption and maintenance, but it doesn't cost in terms of lease rates, which for the A320 family are usually fairly high. Furthermore, the DC-9 has a lower MTOW than the A320 family, so handling fees are cheaper. In terms of total costs, an A319 may be MORE expensive for the airline than a DC-9.
If I were the BK judge, I would order them to retire some of their most expensive airplanes, most likely the ones with least favorable leasing rates, and cut back their most non-profitable routes.

That's why I always though NW was keeping the -9's because they were already paid for and overall the price of maintaining a -9 just doesn't justify the price of a A319  Smile .
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ikramerica
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:38 am

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 13):
Any orders with C or E series planes are going to alienate employee groups, especially the pilots and FA's that will be getting cut to Newco.

And retiring DC9s with no replacement at all will be better? One involves layoffs, the other involves layoffs with potential new jobs at the regional airline. Either way, it's less pay...

Quoting Charlipr (Reply 16):
I heard from a friend that use to work in Piedmont Airlines, that Bombardier visited them to demonstrate the Q400 and were told that that plane could break even with 30 pax.

Could be a good replacement for the CRJs they run now, and cover capacities all the way up to 70 seats, which would mean they wouldn't need a ton of E170s, and could have a smaller fleet of E170/190 at a regional carrier to replace BAEs and some DC9-20/30s, combined with doing the "no replacement" retirement of some DC9s (all types), and the 319 replacement of other DC-9-50s they actually need.
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aviatortj
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:41 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 18):
And retiring DC9s with no replacement at all will be better? One involves layoffs, the other involves layoffs with potential new jobs at the regional airline. Either way, it's less pay...

Ask AMFA about the some jobs or no jobs policy.

It's not my opinion that employees will get angry. I agree with what you are saying 100%. Lots of new planes will have some backlash even if there is good involved.

[Edited 2005-12-10 18:42:45]
 
md90fan
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RE: Northwest, A318, E170/CR7 In Future?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:24 am

Maybe NW will opt for the CR7 or by the time Bombardier might have a CRJ-700NG  Smile or an improved version
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