baw2198
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Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:27 am

Back in 2003, Midwest airlines said they were interested in purchasing the EMB140 but they had to put that order on hold because of post 9-11 concerns. I've heard from a couple of people that Midwest will be starting to take delivery sometime around June or July of 2006. Also on this same info thats floating around, they will be keeping the J328's. Anybody have any other info on this?
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airportugal310
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:29 am

There was an article in Airliners magazine not tooo long ago that said they had either ERJ-135's or ERJ-145's on order....cant remember which

Regardless, yes, there was an order for Regionals...Id also like to know whats going on with these

 Smile
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Mikey711MN
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:10 am

IIRC, they actually ordered a mix of all three RJ's: 135, 140, & 145. As posted in various YX-related threads, many suspect that this order will be cancelled due to a lack of financing (gee, I can't imagine why that would be!), which means that they'll likely be subject to some penalties.

Personally, I've wondered if the powers-that-be aren't trying to modify the deal to rather swap the order with some planes in the 170-190 family. While I'm sure that there are significant logistics to work out internally (read: labor issues) before they could proceed down that path, filling the gap between the 717s and the FRJs might open up some unique growth opportunities for them. Routes like MKE-West Coast or MCI-East Coast might become more realistic, for example.

-Mike
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EMBQA
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:37 am

Quoting AirPortugal310 (Reply 1):
Regardless, yes, there was an order for Regionals...Id also like to know whats going on with these

Like most airlines right now they have no money in the bank to go shopping with.
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Tornado82
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:12 am

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 2):
IIRC, they actually ordered a mix of all three RJ's: 135, 140, & 145.

Yikes. Considering the 135 has almost the same block hour costs as the 145, with 13 seats more in the 145. Unless they need the better performance of the 135 in some spots, but don't ask me where (besides maybe MDW??).

Here's a thought to ponder... if they'd buy 145XR's, they'd have better range than a 717.
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 4):
Yikes. Considering the 135 has almost the same block hour costs as the 145, with 13 seats more in the 145. Unless they need the better performance of the 135 in some spots, but don't ask me where (besides maybe MDW??).

Looks like my memory wasn't entirely accurate: Embraer press release for the order in 4/01

From the article, the order is/was for the ERJ-140 and "includes an equal number of options, which may alternate to the 37-seat ERJ 135 and the 50-seat ERJ 145."

So that explains that. My bad.

-Mike
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vivavegas
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:50 am

According to the "Airliners" Article from this past summer:

Embraer ERJ 135KL (140LR) - 20 On Order - Midwest Connect; delivery 2006-2009


As I have pontificated many times before about this topic, a Dash 8 purchase would be much more fitting. These ERJ's are a HUGE mistake.

Craig
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FutureFO
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:48 am

The order was cancelled by EMB. The order had not been taken and Skyway lost alot of money on the deal.



Sean from MCO and IND
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vivavegas
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:09 am

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 7):
The order was cancelled by EMB. The order had not been taken and Skyway lost alot of money on the deal.

Sean from MCO and IND

Source????

Not a think mentioned in any recent 10k reports, if Skyway "lost alot of money" this would be listed as a special item.

Craig
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Cubsrule
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:36 am

Quoting Vivavegas (Reply 6):

As I have pontificated many times before about this topic, a Dash 8 purchase would be much more fitting. These ERJ's are a HUGE mistake.

I don't think you can say that without knowing what sort of routes they will be deployed on or what sort of expansion is planned. MKE-BNA, for example, would be perfectly appropriate for an ERJ.
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mlsrar
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:03 am

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 7):
The order was cancelled by EMB. The order had not been taken and Skyway lost alot of money on the deal.

The order was deferred, not cancelled from the last that I had heard.

Check your sources and update us if you have newer, more credible information than YX memos.
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cslusarc
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:06 am

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 7):
The order was cancelled by EMB. The order had not been taken and Skyway lost alot of money on the deal.

Is the reason why Embraer cancelled to order the same reason why Bombardier is closing production of the CRJ-200? You know the falling demand for under 50 seat regional jets.
--cslusarc from YWG
 
MUWarriors
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:54 am

Embraer still lists the order as firm. This is the last quarterly release about deliveries, and on I think it's the fourth page, it shows Midwest with 20 firm orders and 20 options (which I would think they would decline if they are even taking the firm orders).

http://www.embraer.com.br/institucio...Ins-VPF-Deliveries_3Q2005-I-05.pdf

Now this isn't to say that they are going to take the deliveries, or if they will take the hit, but Embraer is (as of Oct.) still listing them as firm. Just curious if anyone knows how large the cancellation fee would be?
 
flyman33178
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:52 am

that order has been deferred to a later delivery date...
although there still is discussion of Skyway Airlines taking the ex-ACA Do-328 Jets.
 
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mke717spotter
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:37 am

from what I have heard, the 328 jets were supposed to replace the B1900's routes and the ERJ's were supposed to replace the 328's routes - right now in MKE the ex-UA gates are being renovated so they can be used by skyway so that might be a sign of the erj's coming - jw, would it cost more to take the deliveries or to cancel the order?
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airportugal310
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:48 am

Now the ERJ 170-190 series is somewhere in the 70-100 seat catergory....

Their 717's are 88 seaters.....where would be the point of getting these other than cost?
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Mikey711MN
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:05 am

Quoting AirPortugal310 (Reply 15):
Now the ERJ 170-190 series is somewhere in the 70-100 seat catergory....

Their 717's are 88 seaters.....where would be the point of getting these other than cost?

Fair question. While I don't know the exact seat pitch, the standard 717 configuration seats 117, so YX seats roughly 75% of the "factory standard" if you will.

Given that same 75% ratio of seats, the EJ-170-190 series is, in fact, somewhere in the 52-75 seat category, otherwise nestled neatly between the 88-seat 717 and the 32-seat FRJ. And that it has increased range--as I mentioned, one could fly to either coast from the two current hubs--gives it some credence to being a product that they could consider. Not just to add cost.

-Mike
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MUWarriors
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:12 pm

Quoting Flyman33178 (Reply 13):
that order has been deferred to a later delivery date...

I thought the later delivery date was suppose to be January 2006, unless it was pushed back a 3rd time.

Quoting Mke717spotter (Reply 14):
from what I have heard, the 328 jets were supposed to replace the B1900's routes and the ERJ's were supposed to replace the 328's routes

Kinda, not one for one per say. As I understood it EAS sites like Ironwood, Manistee and non EAS airports like Rhinelander, Muskegon, Escanaba and so on would likely stay as a 1900, but this would allow YX to upgrade their mid-size to large markets (GRR, FNT, IND, BNA, Louisville (can never remember that code)) to all jet service, and up frequencies. It was also hoped that they could move some Skyway ops to MCI, and expand that hub some more. In the long run they want to build up MCI to be comparable to MKE. Of course all this depends on whether or not they take these orders, which there is a good chance they have already or will be canceling soon. I hope not though, I think the ERJ's would look nice in YX colors.
 
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mke717spotter
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:42 pm

well if the 1st aircraft is suposed to be deilvered in jan. of 2006 then wouldnt assembling of that aircraft already begun?
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airtran737
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:45 pm

They aren't coming anytime soon. I crashpad with three Skyway pilots, and am very good friends with the ALPA MEC Chairman, and none of them are in groud school for, or have ever mentioned the jungle jets coming on property anytime soon.
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JBo
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:35 pm

Quoting MUWarriors (Reply 17):
non EAS airports like Rhinelander, Muskegon, Escanaba and so on would likely stay as a 1900

Hey, give us some credit! MKG could easily fill an FRJ flight or two if the fleet allowed for it. Big grin

As for that ERJ-140 in YX colors, I did up some eye-candy some time ago that you flight simmers out there can appreciate:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/jbo110A/FSrepaints/yx140e.jpg

Simmers can find that repaint on Avsim, too.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
MUWarriors
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:00 pm

Quoting JBo (Reply 20):
Hey, give us some credit! MKG could easily fill an FRJ flight or two if the fleet allowed for it.

Yeah, if you could convince people from Ottawa County that MKG is a viable alternative to driving to the far side of Grand Rapids to get to GRR. I think it's a no-brainer, but people from Grand Haven seem to like the additional hour drive.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 19):
They aren't coming anytime soon. I crashpad with three Skyway pilots, and am very good friends with the ALPA MEC Chairman, and none of them are in groud school for, or have ever mentioned the jungle jets coming on property anytime soon.

Yeah, kinda what I figured. Have they mentioned that the order has been canceled? Because if not I can hold on to my hope, as little of that as there may be left.
 
F14D4ever
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:20 pm

Quoting AirPortugal310 (Reply 15):
Now the ERJ 170-190 series is somewhere in the 70-100 seat catergory...

There is no such thing as an ERJ 170 or 190 ... because they're not regional jets. Their proper name is the Embraer 170-190 series.
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akjetBlue
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:20 am

I could see the E170 in a Y62 config which would mean much more leg room, as far as the seats, they do not need the oversized seats they have in the 717s - the seats are plenty confortable... the 190 is comproable to the 717 and doesn't make a lot of sense. the 170 with less seats of course means lighter payload and more range...

jsut a thought, and why has no one mentioned the thought of XY leasing 170s? since they don't have the $$ to buy, why not lease till they can make some cash? or an i missing something?

thoughts?
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jeb94
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:27 am

The EMB 170-190 series is still not a suitable fit for YX mostly due to cabin width. Seat pitch is only part of why YX 717s are at 88 seats. The biggest reason is the fact that there are no middle seats. The DC9-10s only had 60 seats and the DC9-30s had 84 seats. The MD80s used to fly around with just 116 seats. The seat pitch is a little better, maybe an inch or so, but the lack of the middle seat is the biggest reason for the reduction in seats. Add the middle seat to the 88 listed and you're back to 110. Add one more row and you're at 115.
 
apodino
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:34 am

Quoting F14D4ever (Reply 22):
There is no such thing as an ERJ 170 or 190 ... because they're not regional jets. Their proper name is the Embraer 170-190 series.

But they are regional jets. They have less than 100 seats and aren't operated by mainline carriers.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:06 am

Quoting F14D4ever (Reply 22):
There is no such thing as an ERJ 170 or 190 ... because they're not regional jets. Their proper name is the Embraer 170-190 series.

That's funny... the type certificates both in Brazil and here in the States pretty clearly refer to them as ERJ 170s.
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airportugal310
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:15 am

Quoting F14D4ever (Reply 22):
There is no such thing as an ERJ 170 or 190 ... because they're not regional jets. Their proper name is the Embraer 170-190 series.

Actually, to add to everyone elses comment:

There really is no technical definition of what a "regional" jet is.

While its usually any plane that is not mainline, that is something thats just come to be what it is.

Seeeeeya
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Tornado82
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:15 am

JBo, beautiful repaint... and I imagine the real thing would look sweet as well.
 
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JBo
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting MUWarriors (Reply 21):
Yeah, if you could convince people from Ottawa County that MKG is a viable alternative to driving to the far side of Grand Rapids to get to GRR. I think it's a no-brainer, but people from Grand Haven seem to like the additional hour drive.

Who says we're not? Your profile indicates you're from Fairbanks, which would state that you're not from around here. Our numbers at MKG have gone up dramatically within the past year....all our new passengers must be coming from someplace ... and believe it or not, quite a few of those come from the 616 area code (meaning Grand Haven, Spring Lake, and south).

We could very easily fill an FRJ on the first flight out in the morning and the last flight in at night.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:16 am

They're actually all flying in to ride Shivering Timbers.  thumbsup 

I agree that the GRR airport isn't the most easily accessible though. I wasn't a fan of that place when heading towards Kalamazoo from there and then heading back to the airport. (AZO prices/times were just incompatible) Considering nobody uses GRR for its size, the place sure is big and cavernous.
 
COEWR
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:38 am

Quoting MUWarriors (Reply 17):
Louisville (can never remember that code))

SDF...kind of a weird one

-C
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting COEWR (Reply 31):
SDF...kind of a weird one

Well, it's Standiford Field, and Bowman Field had LOU tied up...
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
COEWR
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:10 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):
Well, it's Standiford Field, and Bowman Field had LOU tied up...

that explains it! had the code memorized but didnt realize why it wasnt LOU (or something similar)...I know some cities (Orlando being one of them...MCO for McCoy Field) have weird codes...kinda cool to see what they mean.

-C
 
MUWarriors
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:23 am

Quoting JBo (Reply 29):
Who says we're not? Your profile indicates you're from Fairbanks, which would state that you're not from around here. Our numbers at MKG have gone up dramatically within the past year....all our new passengers must be coming from someplace ... and believe it or not, quite a few of those come from the 616 area code (meaning Grand Haven, Spring Lake, and south).

I'm sorry I didn't mean to be rude, or offend you. I lived in the Tri-Cities for quite about 20 years, and still have a lot of family there. I am very familiar with MKG. I love it, would fly there a lot more if I could, just not a convenient for me at this time because it adds a connection. Plus I am thinking about NW's jet attempt recently. Although I think if they timed it better, or sent it to MSP instead of DTW it may have worked better. Anyway MKG is a great little airport, might be able to support a jet if its timed and promoted right, YX probably has bigger fish to fry though.

Anyway doesn't look like this is a real issue for the time being anyway, as the ERJ's don't seem to be on there way anytime soon, if at all. Again, sorry if I offended.
 
MUWarriors
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:25 am

Just to add, that picture of the ERJ looks awesome. Nice job!
 
srbmod
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 25):
But they are regional jets. They have less than 100 seats and aren't operated by mainline carriers.

Someone better tell JetBlue then.......
 
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mke717spotter
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:10 am

any one know by anychance any other comercial service that MKG sees?
(I'm kinda a fan of small regional airports in the midwest spin  Wink
Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
 
MUWarriors
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RE: Midwest And The ERJ Order

Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:43 am

Quoting Mke717spotter (Reply 37):
any one know by anychance any other comercial service that MKG sees?

Here is Muskegon County Airport's Flight Schedule. NW flies Saabs in and out, although last year they flew a CRJ one time a day, once the subsidy ran out NW stopped jet service. MKG has had carriers come and go over the years, American Eagle, United Express, Midway, I want to say Chicago Express did but can't remember for sure, and there are some more that I can't think of. But YX and NW have had continuous service there for quite a while.

Just wanted to add, thinking about this makes me miss the old terminal 's outside viewing area, it was small, but a nice area to sit in on a nice day.

[Edited 2005-12-14 01:50:09]