CV990
Topic Author
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KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:36 pm

Hi!

Has you know Finnair just signed with Airbus an order for 9 A350's to replace in the future their MD11's. Also you know that TAP is also ordering the A350 to replace in the future the A340's and also the A330-200's that will be their intermediate model for long-haul operations and that is replacing the A310-300 from 2006 on. Now my question would be this, KLM is getting now the A330-200's to replace the 767-300's, but could KLM consider the A350 has the future model to replace the MD11? And also could KLM do something like TAP is doing, have the A330-200 until 2010/2012 and then replace both A330-200 and the MD11 by an all new model called A350 with a mix of 800 and 900 models????
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
blast
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:31 pm

That would make KLM one of the earlier airlines to have a brand new aircraft type being delivered to. To me that does not seem to be KLM's policy.
 
jwenting
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:51 pm

It has always been KLM policy until recently in fact.
They were launch customer for just about every aircraft they ever flew until the current generation (and some of those...).
They've had aircraft designed specifically for them in fact.

To me it seems more logical for KLM to buy more 777s but logic doesn't (always) prevail when politics get involved as is all too often the case with aircraft orders for major airlines (especially airlines owned in whole or part by governments either directly or indirectly).
I wish I were flying
 
Pyrex
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:53 pm

It is probable that Air France will order the A350 in the future so I guess that boosts its chance of entering the KLM fleet but didn't they purchase the 777s just for that (replacing the MD-11)?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
jwenting
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:59 pm

777s were purchased to replace initially the 742 and possibly in the future the MD11.
They might of course use them for fleet expansion instead, or shift part of the aircraft to AF.
I wish I were flying
 
CRJ900
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:06 pm

If KLM follows the trend about flying more point-to-point, then the 772 might be too big, while the 332 is just right in size and perhaps the 358 will be a natural successor to the 332...

772 for big-city routes and 332/358 for smaller markets - sounds alright, doesn't it?  Smile
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:26 pm

The fleet expansion has had to be speeded up to meet growing passenger numbers. So KLM decided to delay the phasing out of the MD11 a few more years. The B767 are leaving the fleet as scheduled.

KLM ordered 2 more T7's to be delivered in January and March 2006. Also a firm order for 2 more B738 was placed. 3 second-hand F100 will join KLC, Cityhopper.
The B737-300's and -400's will be gradually replaced by F100 and B737NG.
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
MEA-707
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:39 pm

It is more then likely either the 787 or the A-350 will be in service with KLM by 2015, but the order is likely a few years off, priorities now are to beef up existing 777, A-330 and 737ng fleets, expect follow up orders on all of these regularly.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
mauriceb
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:47 pm

KLM stated that its going to be either the 787 , A350 or A330 , since the 777 is to big, but they also said the A330 is a bit to small . one thing is a fact, it will be 2012, with a possibility that they might lease some planes if theire arent any slots available...


this is no guessing, these are facts..
 
kappel
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:22 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 8):
this is no guessing, these are facts..

Exactly. I believe it was Leo van Wijk himself who said that the replacement for the a350 will either be the 787 or a350. But since the MD11 will be phased out in 2012, who knows when we can expect an order? This year or 2007?

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 2):
It has always been KLM policy until recently in fact.

Yes, for example the first 744 is from 1989, and was IIRC one of the first off the line and they were the launch cutomer for the GE powered 744.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
kiwiandrew

RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:29 pm

Quoting Kappel (Reply 9):
Yes, for example the first 744 is from 1989, and was IIRC one of the first off the line and they were the launch cutomer for the GE powered 744.



I always thought LH was - I did the Boeing factory tour in late 88 - when the 744 was the latest and greatest thing and the guide told us the launch airlines for each engine were as follows : PW-NW / RR-CX / GE-LH
 
klmcedric
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:54 pm

It might very well be the A-350, but it might just as well be the 787.
I think it's 50/50 here, and I believe the A350/787 order might very well become
the first joint AF-KL airplane order!
 
mikkel777
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:54 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 5):
If KLM follows the trend about flying more point-to-point, then the 772 might be too big

So, how many points in the Nederlands does KL fly out of?

Quoting Kappel (Reply 9):
I believe it was Leo van Wijk himself who said that the replacement for the a350 will either be the 787 or a350.

So, he thinks the 787 will outlive the 350 and might serve as a replacement?
 
kappel
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:55 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 10):
I always thought LH was - I did the Boeing factory tour in late 88 - when the 744 was the latest and greatest thing and the guide told us the launch airlines for each engine were as follows : PW-NW / RR-CX / GE-LH

Oops, seems you're right. I took a look again at the production list and LH was indeed the GE lanch customer, KLM was second.  embarrassed 
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
jwenting
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:52 pm

Quoting Mikkel777 (Reply 12):
So, how many points in the Nederlands does KL fly out of?

Schiphol
Zestienhoven
Eindhoven
Twenthe
Eelde
Beek (yes, I refuse to use the politically correct name Big grin)
Lelystad (ok, KLM flying club, but they are blue  Wink)

But they fly point to point TO well over a hundred destinations worldwide from Amsterdam alone.
I wish I were flying
 
kappel
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:57 pm

Quoting Mikkel777 (Reply 12):
So, he thinks the 787 will outlive the 350 and might serve as a replacement?

Sorry typo, I meant the replacement for MD11 will be the a350 or 787. I keep embarrasing myself!!!      

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 14):
Schiphol
Zestienhoven
Eindhoven
Twenthe
Eelde
Beek (yes, I refuse to use the politically correct name )
Lelystad (ok, KLM flying club, but they are blue )

Come on, Zestienhoven (Rotterdam Airport) only sees F50's from KLM. IIRC so does Eindhoven. Rotterdam only sees HV 737's. The only airport wich sees anything bigger is Schiphol. SO it would not be point to point, but hub to point. And i don't think Twenthe and Eelde see any serious traffic. Does KLM even fly there?

[Edited 2005-12-13 12:58:15]
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
Joost
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Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:00 pm

Quoting Mikkel777 (Reply 12):
So, how many points in the Nederlands does KL fly out of?

The list of JWenting is officially correct, but I suppose you mean scheduled services. They are from:

AMS (no need to explain)

RTM (only 2xF50 flights to LHR)
EIN (only 2xF50 flights to LHR, EIN-AMS has been ceased as from this week)
MST (only 4xF50 flights to AMS)

They do not operate any scheduled service (anymore) from GRQ (Groningen-Eelde) or ENS (Enschede-Twente).

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 5):
If KLM follows the trend about flying more point-to-point

What do you mean by that? Currently, AMS is a prime example of a hub-and-spoke airline, by effectively only offering spokes from AMS, besides that 4 daily F50s. I do not see them flying 332s from EIN of RTM, not in the near feature, not in the long feature. There might be a market for BBJ flights RTM - U.S., but that's about it.

They have always had a fleet composed of long-haul aircraft in different sizes to optimally serve markets. Now they have the 332, they can start serving more distant markets that are too small for a 772 and too far for a 767 - but this is a logical evolution. (I mostly think of China/India)
 
mikkel777
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:15 am

RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:07 pm

Quoting Joost (Reply 16):
What do you mean by that? Currently, AMS is a prime example of a hub-and-spoke airline, by effectively only offering spokes from AMS, besides that 4 daily F50s. I do not see them flying 332s from EIN of RTM, not in the near feature, not in the long feature. There might be a market for BBJ flights RTM

That was my point also. Long haul service from KL is, and will be, hub to point/hub. If the 772, in some cases, is to big, that has nothing to do with point-to-point strategy from KL, it is just because KL's marketshare is to small, or the marked itself is to small.
 
CV990
Topic Author
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:37 pm

Hi!

Thanks for the great feedback here!!! I personally think if TAP can't trade back their A330-200's ( 5 new ones that would start to be delivered in 2007 ) for the brand new A350 so do KLM too!!! And I think Airbus will need to give a good boost in their orders and KLM ordering the A350 would be a great achievement for Airbus!!! And I also agree, if KLM is thinking about replacing the MD11 from 2012 on they must be "on the corner" to have a decision no latter than 2006!!!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
jwenting
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:27 am

I thought there was a scheduled KLC service to Twenthe and Eelde, but maybe my data is old or it's seasonal?

Quoting Mikkel777 (Reply 17):
That was my point also. Long haul service from KL is, and will be, hub to point/hub. If the 772, in some cases, is to big, that has nothing to do with point-to-point strategy from KL, it is just because KL's marketshare is to small, or the marked itself is to small.

For those destinations they will likely just shift the flight to Paris to be operated by AF only (given the very large network commonality between them AF most likely will already be flying there and facing the same situation of a thin market).
I wish I were flying
 
mauriceb
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:42 am

and I believe the A350/787 order might very well become
the first joint AF-KL airplane order!


nope, they said they won't order big aircraft together, only regional planes...

the main point for that statement is that CDG and AMS receive different pax/cargo. KLM will need aircraft with lots Cargo space and not to much pax, while AF has more full pax flights


anyway KL wont make a decision on the MD-11 replacement before they have seen the planes fly. so that gives boeing a hugh advance since it will fly way more earlier than the A350. most of you think that that will be to late to get some slots for 2012, but KLM isnt known of replacing a Ac type within a short time (see 767, wich takes 2 years) so they will probably try to get every slot available, combined with most of them leased...
 
Joost
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Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:45 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 19):
I thought there was a scheduled KLC service to Twenthe and Eelde, but maybe my data is old or it's seasonal?

It was KLM Exel, not KLC. They ceased operations to Enschede and Groningen already in 1998.
 
ricardofg
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:08 am

I know KL has another 763 going to Zoom Airlines later this month, but where are all the other 763 going or will Z4 take them all??
 
RIXrat
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:45 am

My wife recently went to DAR (Dar es Salaam) on KL onboard a DC-10. I thought they had liquidated those on the long haul and replaced them with MD-11s.
 
Dakota
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:52 am

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 23):
My wife recently went to DAR (Dar es Salaam) on KL onboard a DC-10. I thought they had liquidated those on the long haul and replaced them with MD-11s.

Your wife did NOT fly in a DC-10 of KLM, while they fased them out about ten years ago...
 
NovemberMike
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:15 am

Quoting RicardoFG (Reply 22):
I know KL has another 763 going to Zoom Airlines later this month, but where are all the other 763 going or will Z4 take them all??

And what about the 737s, where are they going?
 
SAIL52115
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:29 am

RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:46 am

Hello all:

Thanks for all the great info but I have this question:

What will happen to the 747combis currently in service to ORD and LAX? My apologies if there is another thread on this or my destinations are out-of-whack.

Adam
 
AMSSFO
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:01 am

Quoting RicardoFG (Reply 22):
I know KL has another 763 going to Zoom Airlines later this month, but where are all the other 763 going or will Z4 take them all??

Zoom only gets two; Neos gets another two (one already delivered; one early 2006). The others, I don't know. Two may go to Aeroflot, but I haven't seen any confirmation of that.

Quoting NovemberMike (Reply 25):
And what about the 737s, where are they going?

Let's wait until KL has actually ordered additional 737NGs..... Smile
 
Joost
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:26 am

Quoting SAIL52115 (Reply 26):
What will happen to the 747combis currently in service to ORD and LAX?

They will stay for the forseeable feature. KLM has had it's full-pax and combi's received from 1989 to 2002, so some of them are just 3 years old. Not exactly sure which are full-pax and which are combi's, but at least the last 2 delivered ( PH-BFW (named Shanghai, delivered october 2000) and PH-BFY (named Johannesburg, delivered 2002) ) are combi's. So they will still see a long future at KLM.
 
JRadier
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:32 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 2):
It has always been KLM policy until recently in fact.
They were launch customer for just about every aircraft they ever flew until the current generation (and some of those...).
They've had aircraft designed specifically for them in fact.

define recently, as the planes you are talking about are the old fokkers (before F27), DC-5, and wich?? The planes that were designed especially for KL where all fokkers as far as I know, and that was in the time London was still a place where only few had been.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
ehho
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RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:33 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 29):
and wich??

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe KL had a stake in the development of the DC-10-10, the very first batch, and as mentioned above they were one of the first with the 744.

Edit: Look closely for the KLM logo on the hull of this DC-10
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter de Groot



[Edited 2005-12-14 21:51:40]
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
sk601
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Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:46 pm

RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:51 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 28):
Not exactly sure which are full-pax and which are combi's

Pax:
PH-BFA, may 1989, Atlanta
PH-BFB, june 1989, Bangkok
PH-BFG, april 1990, Guayaquil
PH-BFL, dec 1991, Lima
PH-BFN, april 1993, Nairobi

Combi:
PH-BFC, sep 1989, Calgary
PH-BFD, sep 1989, Dubai
PH-BFE, jan 1990, Melbourne
PH-BFF, feb 1990, Freetown
PH-BFH, apr 1990, Hongkong
PH-BFI, may 1991, Jakarta
PH-BFK, may 1991, Karachi
PH-BFM, feb 1992, Mexico
PH-BFO, oct 1992, Orlando
PH-BFP, sep 1993, Paramaribo
PH-BFR, jan 1994, Rio de Janeiro
PH-BFS, oct 1996, Seoul
PH-BFT, may 1997, Tokio
PH-BFU, aug 1997, Beijing
PH-BFV, jan 1998, Vancouver
PH-BFW, okt 2000, Shanghai
PH-BFY, apr 2001, Jo-burg
PH-BFZ was supposed to be delivered in feb 2004 and PH-BGB in feb 2005, never happened though, probably in favour of the B777.

[Edited 2005-12-14 21:58:50]
 
sk601
Posts: 896
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:46 pm

RE: KLM And The Airbus Deal!

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:58 am

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 23):
My wife recently went to DAR (Dar es Salaam) on KL onboard a DC-10.

I can understand why she thought she was inside an ancient DC10. The KL MD11 a/c are not very well maintained -as far as the interior is concerned-. All MD11 are in a desperate need of a refurbishment. The MD11 is the only a/c without the Recaro M-class seats (and the B767, but this a/c is on the way out...) in KLs longhaul fleet.

I've actually been in NW DC10s that looked better than KL MD11!

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