ltbewr
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Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:59 am

Their is a news report out of San Diego that the family members of some USA soldiers killed in Iraq/Afghanistan are complaining about the transport and handling of the caskets and remains on commercial flights, that it is undignified and disrespectful. At least one went to their US Senator to complain. They don't like that the coffins are placed with the rest of the freight, without flags on their coffins, no honor guard taking off the coffin from the a/c and so on. What so some of these people want, that the coffin be put across some 1st class rows in the cabin? I suspect some people will never be satisfied or are ignorant of the dignified yet practical treatment of human remains on commercial airflights.

There have been several threads here which have described with detail the dignified treatment by airlines with the transport and handling of the remains of soldiers killed or died outside the country as well as to the general treatment of all human remains. Some have included links or excerpts of stores detailing those procedures and general treatment. From those stories, I understand that within practical ability, there is very honorable and dignified yet practical treatment throughout the air transport system. One has to wonder if there are some political issues here beyond the actual treatment of their loved one's bodies.
 
BBJII
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:04 am

Given the number of Military Transport flights, I imagine that the families have a point.

However.....

There are more freight flights than anything else. I say allow the familes to vent there anger/frustration. The sooner these poor souls are laid to rest, the better for the familes.


 wave 
Remember: The Bird Hit You, You Didn't Hit The Bird.....
 
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yowza
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:05 am

Well it's not asking too much of the military to cover a coffin with a flag. That said this may be an intentional action as the US is very sensitive to KIAs. If they send them home individually in unmarked coffins it's more discreet than a large military transport carrying a dozen flag covered coffins being met by an honour guard. Besides US air resources are busy transporting alleged terrorists to secret prisons  Wink

YOWza
 
kaniksu
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:09 am

If it was my body being transported I wouldn't mind being in the freight area.
 
hiflyer
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodie

Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:28 am

In the 60's,70's and 80's the remains, if transported on commercial aircraft, rode in the cargo compartments but were escorted by a uniformed member of the armed forces upstairs who was brought down for loading and offloading and stayed with the deceased thru the funeral and burial. I do not believe that commercial pax aircraft are being used now in as great of numbers as they used to be...perhaps there is increased use of either military or cargo only aircraft with the growth of FedEx, UPS, and DHL. Additionally, ramp access for honors with the current level of airport security is not as simple as it used to be and quicker aircraft turn times preclude any ceremony. The industy now is not the one of the Vietnam era which was the last time we have had these significant numbers and maybe what the parents of these fine soldiers are remembering.
 
jamesbuk
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:31 am

they gave their life for their country yet the country cant be bothered to have an honour gaurd their and a flag covering their coffin disgraceful absoloutely discraceful
You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
 
CALMSP
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:37 am

wasnt there people complaining about the picture fo a large number of troops (covered in flags) being transported?? i somewhat remember something along these lines.

we treat every HR the same, with special handling and care
 
N276AASTT
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:50 am

As an AA ramper we are trained to handle the coffins with respect and dignity. We don't hang around the coffin, we don't leave it out in the elements. When it arrives from freight house and the aircraft is at the gate, we cut short what we are doing and get it loaded ASAP. Very little talking is involved, only enough to complete the job and then we press on to other matters.
Dejale Caer tu el Peso! YOMO
 
JasperEMA
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:53 am

I do not think it to much if your young solders bodies are returned by military jet , covered with the flag , guard of honor,the last post ect.Show some respect! The gov seems embarrassed just like the 60s they died for their country(whether you agree with the war or not) and they are someone's sons (and daughters)
SHAME!!!!!!
 
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mariner
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:42 am

This link has slides of the transport - with flags, with honor guards:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4625212

It looks remarkably dignified to me.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:03 am

When have we started to black out the faces and identification of honour guard soldiers? What the hell is that all about?

I must agree with the Brits who chimed in here to express disgust with the story.
And I, as an American, am disgusted that more Americans do not share the same feelings. What the hell has happened to our country?

The US military took these boys over to war....and they are responsible to bring them back (via military transport) with full honors, not on a commercial flight.
 
TPAnx
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:06 am

This:
http://www.time.com/time/yip/2005/?i...d=AOT_h_12-11-2005_the_best_photos
from Time magazine, depicts the remains of a soldier being handled on a commercial flight. Link gives 24 shots..the one to whichn I refer is photo 18.And you may recall the post from a month or so ago about the captain--forget the airline--who told his passengers that the remains of a soldier were on the plane, and that an escort was traveling with them.
Both seem very fitting to me..
TPAnx
I read the news today..oh boy
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:08 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 2):
Besides US air resources are busy transporting alleged terrorists to secret prisons

You actually had a decent post going until you lost your mind here.

Quoting JasperEMA (Reply 9):
The gov seems embarrassed just like the 60s they died for their country(whether you agree with the war or not) and they are someone's sons (and daughters)
SHAME!!!!!!

Simple logistics. Nothing to do with being embarrassed or anything else.

Same reason living military persons going on temporary duty fly commercial airlines to their destination. COST! Far less expensive to buy a ticket in the cabin or the cargo hold on a commercial flight than to send an entier aircraft and crew.

Several reasons for not having the coffin flag draped . . . first: descretion. second: Some rampers (not all of them to be sure) at the various airports and airlines could give a hoot in hell about most things int he cargo hold - and treat it that way - and having an American Flag misplaced or improperly attached to or wadded up and duct taped to the top of the coffin is not the proper thing to do (I've seen all three).

When the bodies of our fallen soldiers are returned from overseas on the military transport they are flag draped, and they have an honor guard aboard the aircraft. If you've ever flown aboard a mission with dead soldiers aboard you'd know it to be a somber and wrenching trip no matter the length.

Quoting N276AASTT (Reply 8):
As an AA ramper we are trained to handle the coffins with respect and dignity. We don't hang around the coffin, we don't leave it out in the elements. When it arrives from freight house and the aircraft is at the gate, we cut short what we are doing and get it loaded ASAP. Very little talking is involved, only enough to complete the job and then we press on to other matters.

My personal thanks for that . . . escort detail isn't easy, and it's always easier when the rampers treat the remains with dignity and respect.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
slider
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:41 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 11):
What the hell has happened to our country?

I've never seen a mishandling or any sense of disrespect EVER to HR (human remains) and especially never with a military honors escort.

One thing that no one's mentioned here yet, is that given the proliferation of RJs and such, there are some A/C that cannot capacitate a coffin, size wise. Also, HR needs to be booked in advance in terms of planning the load, bag counts, weight, etc.

These aren't excuses per se in terms of using cargo or a freight company for a military casket, but it's a reason insofar as logistics.

The RJ thing is VERY much a factor.
 
crjflyer35
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:53 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 11):
And I, as an American, am disgusted that more Americans do not share the same feelings. What the hell has happened to our country?

Thank you for actually saying it out loud. More people need to feel like you and I.

At my last unit, I had the distinct honor of serving in my post honor guard, completing 40 + funerals in my 8 month tour. On one occasion, we were tasked with going up to the airport (not gonna go into details on location) to escort the body of a soldier KIA. I have to say, that for how solemn our job was, I was still moved immensly. As we were carrying the casket towards the terminal and waiting hearse, you could see about 80 or 90 passengers in the terminal standing at the glass with their hands over their hearts and the like. Everyone had stopped what they were doing, taking a moment out of their lives to pay respect to a young man who gave his life for his country.
I'm personally disgusted that the US Government would allow a soldiers body to be transported like the way described. The least they are owed, are a military transport back, a flag over their casket, an honor guard to meet them when they return home, and a proper military funeral.

Of course, this is just the view of someone who has a very personal relationship with the subject.
Ok, wait for the RJ to pass, cleared to push tail south Mike, and you're cleared to spin #2 in the push.
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:57 am

Maybe if these parents complained about this bs war, they wouldn't have to complain about how their dead offspring are transported.



Burial at sea? Why is this still necessary? Don't those ships have small morgues?
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
dw9115
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:08 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Thread starter):
suspect some people will never be satisfied or are ignorant of the dignified yet practical treatment of human remains on commercial airflights.

Maybe you should try serving in the military? Families expect flags on coffins and at least a member of the branch of service of the deceased service member to be present at all times!

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 5):
If the deceased was enroled in a SA)">FF program can he/she get upgraded to the main cabin???

YOUR COMMENTS ARE COMPLETELY UNCALLED FOR AND SHOULD BE DELTED. YOU APPARENTLY HAVE NO RESPECT FOR MEN AND WOMEN WHO DIED SERVING THEIR COUNTRY. ALSO YOU DISGUST ME AND I ONLY HOPE SOME MAKES THE SAME COMMITS ABOUT YOUR OWN DEATH!

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 11):
The US military took these boys over to war....and they are responsible to bring them back (via military transport) with full honors, not on a commercial flight.

Thank you for your commits.

[Edited 2005-12-13 21:11:42]
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:08 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 16):
Burial at sea? Why is this still necessary? Don't those ships have small morgues?

Yes, the ships have morgues.

However, a life long sailor of 20-30 years with his/her heart in the Navy often request burial at sea - nothing mandates it. Same as a ground pounder requesting Arlington or their local National Cemetary.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:11 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 7):
wasnt there people complaining about the picture fo a large number of troops (covered in flags) being transported?? i somewhat remember something along these lines.

Exactly. About a year ago, some families were complaining coz remains were flown back in a military C-130 transport plane. The government can't please everybody unfortunately and I doubt they'll start calling families asking them whether they want their loved one flown back on a military jet or commercial. I really don't see a problem with flying remains commercial but then again, people are different and I cannot really speak for those families because I haven't been in their situation.  tombstone  brave soldiers.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
airtran737
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:18 am

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 4):
In the 60's,70's and 80's the remains, if transported on commercial aircraft, rode in the cargo compartments but were escorted by a uniformed member of the armed forces upstairs who was brought down for loading and offloading and stayed with the deceased thru the funeral and burial. I do not believe that commercial pax aircraft are being used now in as great of numbers as they used to be...perhaps there is increased use of either military or cargo only aircraft with the growth of FedEx, UPS, and DHL. Additionally, ramp access for honors with the current level of airport security is not as simple as it used to be and quicker aircraft turn times preclude any ceremony. The industy now is not the one of the Vietnam era which was the last time we have had these significant numbers and maybe what the parents of these fine soldiers are remembering.

Actually this still happens. I was able to watch a fallen soldier return to Wisconsin about two months ago. There was a full marine honor guard as well a police escort, his family, and the hears all on the ramp for when he arrived. When the A320 pulled in a Marine came down the stairs to the cargo door before it was even opened. They then proceeded to unload the casket, and did a full ceremony right there on the ramp. It was one of the most amazing things that I have ever been able to witness.

I have also seen a soldier coming home once when I was in Atlanta. It was pouring rain outside, but this soldiers officer escort stood vigil outside the aircraft bin until it was time for departure. He stood out there for well over an hour keeping watch over his fallen comrade. People need to understand that these men and women are being treated with the utmost dignity and respect on their final journey home after making the ultimate sacrifice for their country. I for one thank them, and applaud what they have chosen to do for our great nation.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:28 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 5):
If the deceased was enroled in a FF program can he/she get upgraded to the main cabin???

That is un-called for and you should be ashamed. Heartless comments like that don't have a place in any forum, leave alone this one. Like DW9115 said, hopefully someone makes such a comment about you when your sorry a$$ croaks someday.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
soylentgreen
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:33 am

If we can fly terrorists on private jets (Gulfstream Vs), we can at least fly the bodies of our GIs, who've given everything, for the rest of us. Our military is being callous and disrespectful to the armed forces, and to all Americans. Writre your Congressman and ask that this be stopped.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:46 am

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 22):
Writre your Congressman and ask that this be stopped.

Yeah, bring them all home that way we won't have to transport any more bodies.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Jano
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:25 am

Taking Chance Home


U.S. Marine Corps Pfc. Chance Phelps, 19, died April 9, 2004, from hostile fire in Al Anbar Province, Iraq. He was assigned to 3rd Battalion, 11th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division. He was buried in Dubois, Wyoming on April 17, 2004. The below story was written by Lt. Col. Mike Strobl, assigned to Manpower Management Officer Assignments at Marine Corps Base Quantico, who volunteered to be the escort officer for Pfc. Phelps during his journey home. Lt. Col. Strobl's mission as escort officer was to ensure Pfc. Phelps arrived home with dignity and honor and in a professional and timely manner.


http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/jul2004/a071204a.html
The Widget Air Line :)
 
IADBGO
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:35 am

Hello all,

I was a little reluctant to post at all on this thread but I think I should. There is an interesting photo in Time magazine this week of a coffin being brought out of an AA flight with a flag and honor guard there in the hold of the aircraft.

It is my understanding that every casket has a flag on it while being transported...with no exception. None of us know the full story here. If you listen to the interview with the family they say how they don't understand why their son was not flown home on a military aircraft. Their complaint is that the military did not bring their son home on their own aircraft..ie C-130, C-17 etc.

We don't know what the circumstances would have been for the casket coming home on a commercial aircraft. There is little reason to suspect that an airline would have some caskets with flags...ie the AA picture in Time...and others that are flag less. I don't mean to step on any toes because I believe that every American soldier, inrelevant of politics or situation deserves an honorable funeral and honorable trip to their family...but something doesn't add up here. The family protested and called their Senator (Boxer) ...the question is...were they told the casket would have no flag and no honor guard? If it did not then I would be interested to find out why some soldiers get honor guards while others don't.

An unfortunate situation all around.

IADBGO
 
bond007
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:50 am

Shameful.

These proud soldiers, most of them in their 20's, gave their life for a very unjust 'war', and we can't send them home in a dignified manner.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
Some rampers (not all of them to be sure) at the various airports and airlines could give a hoot in hell about most things int he cargo hold - and treat it that way

So it's OK not to drape a flag over the coffin then??

As for COST ??

Gimme a break ... how many billions of dollars are we spending every month??

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:10 am

They gave thier life for this country, a more appropriate return trip home is in order.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:03 am

It is interesting the reactions and points made here. Don't forget, that almost all of the HR's of soldiers are transported by Military a/c to Dover (DE) A.F.B. the central receiving place for all dead soldiers as there is a morgue there. While we have few photos of what happens there due to politicial appearances (don't want the USA public to see pictures of a group of flag draped coffins of our dead soldiers...), it is clear that there are substantally respectable prodecures used. Then I would assume the coffins are transported by road to Baltimore (BWI) or Phildelphia (PHL) airports and transferred to commercial a/c.
This helps to expedite the delivery of the remains to their families in the shortest time. In this day and age, that may mean using RJ's and other small a/c with their problems, but I am quite sure (as discussed above) there are well defined procedures at to HR's for any a/c used. While some may want to have military aircraft used exclusively, that would be prohibitaly expensive, inconvenient, and wastful of military assets.
 
HPRamper
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:23 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 23):
Yeah, bring them all home that way we won't have to transport any more bodies.

I second that one.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 28):
While some may want to have military aircraft used exclusively, that would be prohibitaly expensive, inconvenient, and wastful of military assets.

I think getting our troops shot is a bigger waste of "military assets."
 
dw9115
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:38 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 28):
Don't forget, that almost all of the HR's of soldiers are transported by Military a/c to Dover (DE) A.F.B. the central receiving place for all dead soldiers as there is a morgue there. While we have few photos of what happens there due to politicial appearances (don't want the USA public to see pictures of a group of flag draped coffins of our dead soldiers...),

The reason for no press photo's at Dover (except for families present when bodies are brought back) is because the families asked for it because they didn't want their grief being used for political reasons like happened during Vietnam. During WWI and WWII the press almost never showed photos of coffins out of respect to the fallen Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines. The few that did run photo's had that stopped almost the second it happened by FDR and a special office he set up to censor the press during WWII.
 
stuckinMAF
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:55 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 5):
If the deceased was enroled in a FF program can he/she get upgraded to the main cabin???

Too bad A.net doesn't have a "DISrespected users" list. In the strongest terms I am allowed to convey within this forum, inappropriate comment.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 11):

There's a first time for everything, and this time MD80fanatic and I mostly agree.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 20):
Actually this still happens. I was able to watch a fallen soldier return

Thanks so much for relaying what you saw, it gives me some sense of reassurance.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 26):
gave their life for a very unjust 'war'

Not true. I will not go into detail here, would not be appropriate in this thread.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" -Sigmund Freud
 
777D
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:01 pm

These men and women sacrificed their lives for their country. These soldiers should be given flights home on military transports not commercial flights. Give them the dignity of being treated with respect and not flown with regualr cargo.
I do not agree with the Bush administration for the war. The war is based on lies to the world.
 
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yowza
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:59 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):

You actually had a decent post going until you lost your mind here.

It was clearly a joke.

YOWza
 
positiverate
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:07 am

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 5):
they gave their life for their country yet the country cant be bothered to have an honour gaurd their and a flag covering their coffin disgraceful absoloutely discraceful



Quoting JasperEMA (Reply 8):
I do not think it to much if your young solders bodies are returned by military jet , covered with the flag , guard of honor,the last post ect.Show some respect! The gov seems embarrassed just like the 60s they died for their country(whether you agree with the war or not) and they are someone's sons (and daughters)
SHAME!!!!!!



Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 21):
Our military is being callous and disrespectful to the armed forces, and to all Americans. Writre your Congressman and ask that this be stopped.

You don't know the details or the reasons for why things happen the way they do. Until you do, wouldn't it be wise to reserve your comments?

Quoting Jano (Reply 23):
Taking Chance Home


U.S. Marine Corps Pfc. Chance Phelps, 19, died April 9, 2004, from hostile fire in Al Anbar Province, Iraq. He was assigned to 3rd Battalion, 11th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division. He was buried in Dubois, Wyoming on April 17, 2004. The below story was written by Lt. Col. Mike Strobl, assigned to Manpower Management Officer Assignments at Marine Corps Base Quantico, who volunteered to be the escort officer for Pfc. Phelps during his journey home. Lt. Col. Strobl's mission as escort officer was to ensure Pfc. Phelps arrived home with dignity and honor and in a professional and timely manner.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/article....html

Thanks for posting that.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 25):
These proud soldiers, most of them in their 20's, gave their life for a very unjust 'war', and we can't send them home in a dignified manner.

Keep your political views to yourself or take it to the non-av forum.

Quoting Iadbgo (Reply 24):
It is my understanding that every casket has a flag on it while being transported...with no exception. None of us know the full story here. If you listen to the interview with the family they say how they don't understand why their son was not flown home on a military aircraft. Their complaint is that the military did not bring their son home on their own aircraft..ie C-130, C-17 etc.

Thanks for the information.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:43 am

Back when I worked cargo, I was lucky enough to experience the handling one of the first casualties of the war at the airport first hand.

Imagine this: A fully loaded 737 pulls into the gate, then 2 accompanying soldiers disembark, and the other passengers are told to remain in their seats. The soldiers then jump into the bin, remove the airtray cover, then drape the flag on the casket. From the other side of the aircraft comes a military bus and a hearse. From the military bus, out come the honor guard, a full band, and several higher ranked officers. Next comes the red carpet. Everyone gets into position, the casket is positioned onto the belt loader, and then the band plays the Star Spangled Banner. Now, a lone trumpeteer comes out and starts to play Taps, meanwhile the casket slowly makes it's way down the belt. As the casket makes it's way off the belt, the honor picks it up with flawless precision, and marches slowly down the red carpet to the hearse. After the casket is loaded and secured, the honor guard perfoms some marching manuevers, then everything is then packed up, I take care of the shipping papers with the mortuary, and they all leave as one.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:44 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 25):
gave their life for a very unjust 'war'

Inappropriate remark for Civ-Av . . . wanna talk about this meet me in Non-Av.

That said:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 25):
So it's OK not to drape a flag over the coffin then??

Absolutely NOT! A flag should always be there. Re-read what I posted.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
Some rampers (not all of them to be sure) at the various airports and airlines could give a hoot in hell about most things int he cargo hold - and treat it that way - and having an American Flag misplaced or improperly attached to or wadded up and duct taped to the top of the coffin is not the proper thing to do (I've seen all three).

Occasionally, rampers don't take care to keep the flag properly attached to the coffin.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 25):
As for COST ??

Gimme a break ... how many billions of dollars are we spending every month??

I said cost . . . sending Mil Air assets to every town and city produces costs, not to mention logistical issues - shouldn't be too difficult to figure those out but if it confuses you, let me know, I'll spell it out for you.

Sending the fallen soldier via commercial air, where infrastructure is already in place to handle the soldiers remains is common sense.

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 21):
If we can fly terrorists on private jets (Gulfstream Vs), we can at least fly the bodies of our GIs, who've given everything, for the rest of us. Our military is being callous and disrespectful to the armed forces, and to all Americans. Writre your Congressman and ask that this be stopped.

Your entire post is utter nonsense. You haven't a clue of what you speak.

Quoting 777D (Reply 31):
These men and women sacrificed their lives for their country. These soldiers should be given flights home on military transports not commercial flights. Give them the dignity of being treated with respect and not flown with regualr cargo. I do not agree with the Bush administration for the war. The war is based on lies to the world.

More nonsense.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
BWI757
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:58 am

RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting Crjflyer35 (Reply 14):
The least they are owed, are a military transport back, a flag over their casket, an honor guard to meet them when they return home, and a proper military funeral.

Could not of said it better myself. RR for you sir.

Keep the political comments out of here please.

BWI757
I live in the US but my heart is in Jerusalem!
 
joness0154
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:00 am

What everyone here seems to forget is that all of the fallen soldiers get a ride home to the US on a military aircraft, then commercial to their final destination in the states. It is logistically (there aren't AF bases everywhere, you know) and economically more logical to do it that way. Unlike most people think, the military doesn't have unlimited resources

As long as they get the proper honors (flag, escort, etc) there is nothing wrong with it.
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
SlamClick
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:36 am

I have seen some of these soldiers returned to their home towns. I have to concur with what those who have actually experienced this have had to say: That each fallen soldier does have a flag. That airline personnel are quite respectful during the handling. That the honor guard or escort is well treated and gets considerable cooperation from the airline and aiport personnel. I have seen two entire airplane crews turn out on the ramp, remove their hats and stand "at attention" and pay their respects for a flag-draped coffin. I found it deeply moving.

On the other hand, as a combat veteran myself I cannot think of any reason why a military transport would be in any way superior to, or preferred over belly freight on an airliner.

Have any of you whiners ever actually been on a military transport aircraft?

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Photo © Alan Campbell


Oh! The pomp! The pageantry!

Specific instances of disrepect should be dealt with as they happen. On the whole this is a non-issue thread.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Ken777
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:53 am

Jano,

Thank you very much for posting the link. It is very painful to realize that this is a story that has been repeated over 2,000 times in the past few years.
 
jgold47
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:00 am

RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:24 am

People need to get over themselfs. The bodys are transported to Dover, met with a colour guard, given the bells and whisltes. Then they are sent out to the familes. just like ANY OTHER BODY, on a com/cargo Aircraft. Personally, I dont see why they should be treated any differently than any other body. With resources already stretched thin, why ask the gov to incur another burden, and another cost, for some selfish parents who think junior deserves the Joint Cheifs to show up at a funeral for their enlisted son, who was killed in a war he chose to fight?
 
SLUAviator
Posts: 292
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:30 pm

RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:42 am

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 4):
the remains, if transported on commercial aircraft, rode in the cargo compartments but were escorted by a uniformed member of the armed forces upstairs who was brought down for loading and offloading

I saw this twice at ORD in the two years that I worked there. The escort was an officer and they got on the plane both times. While there was no band and no honor guard (remember this was just loading, I don't know what happened on the other end) they both arrived planeside with the casket and both stood outside of the plane for the duration of the loading process.

I thought it was a nice touch to have them stand out there in the Chicago winter. Brothers in arms until the end.
What do I know? I just fly 'em.......
 
n917me
Posts: 492
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:18 am

RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:12 am

The remains of US Military servicemen and women are transported via C5 to Dover AFB, then are transported via scheduled carrier to the families. It would be a logistical nightmare to transport each of the HR via military aircraft, not counting the timeframe. Families, I would assume, would like thier loved ones HR back as soon as possible.
I have seen several HR go through the airport I work at, most are escorted by a honor guard. It is tough to see the remains, it makes you pause and think that that soldier gave the ultimate sacrafice, so we can have our frredom.
 
Prinair
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 1999 7:28 am

RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:46 pm

While I do feel that the loss of life is sad, some facts seem to have been forgotten by people...

The men and women of the armed forces perform a superb and distinguished job, there is no question about that, but it seems that most people forget that they CHOSE to do that job. No one held a gun (in most cases) to their head and forced them to join. This whole charade of pity for the armed forces has gone long enough, they knew the risks when they joined. It seems that a lot of people want to be soldiers in times of peace (and reap the benefits available to them) but when war breaks out and they have to really earn their pay then they expect everyone to be sorry for them.

I get up every morning and go to work doing what I chose to do, be it in good times or bad times and I do not expect any special treatment.

Airlines usually do a great job of treating all humans remains with respect and dignity. These people requesting special treatment for these remains are simply egotistical and not facing reality. They should keep in mind that their sons and daughter CHOSE a military career and unfortunately things like death can happen.

Logistically an escort for every coffin/casket would be costly and inefficient, and I am tired of seeing my tax money spent uselessly. I would rather have my tax money be used to fund programs for living vets such as health care
and other benefits.

Let the dead rest in peace.

And yes, I am a vet.
PRINAIR : Puerto Rico International Airlines
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:45 am

You people are bent out of shape over nothing.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm...icle/0,1299,DRMN_3_4224657,00.html



All transporting of military members bodies are handled with the utmost dignity and care with very, very few exceptions. And those exceptions are few and far between due only to logistics issues

This is a non story. Rest easy.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5546
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RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:18 am

One comment,

I have read "Bringing Chance home".. I know my sister cried for some time over it.

Whilst using military transport to return the remains of these young men & women to their families may seem like a noble idea. Do you for one moment think these valiant young men & women would want to tie up those finite resources that could be much better utilised providing support and often lifesaving support to their comrades still in harms way?

Regards

Chris
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
Electech6299
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:13 am

RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:18 am

Thanks SlamClick and others with personal experience for bringing some reality and respect to a sensitive issue that appears, unfortunately, to be getting press attention for political reasons. My brother serves in the US Army 3rd Infantry Division (The Old Guard), and has been responsible for the Dover honor guard for literally dozens of our fallen brothers and sisters. More than once I have had weekend plans with him, only to call and find out from his bride that he "got the call" and had left at 3AM for Dover for another 18+ hours of ceremonial duty. If those of you who don't understand the issue here have never seen an honor guard in action, please do so. There are numerous opportunities. Yes, every fallen soldier's HR deserves a flag-draped coffin and an escort. And the military honors they receive at each step along the way, but most notably Dover, where the military transport from the theater of operations arrives home and is met by the finest ceremonial honors the military has to offer. And even if over 200 slain are on the transport flight, you'd better believe that each and every one gets the same full honor guard treatment. I have spent many weekends pondering this as my brother executes his mission.   

Edit: And yes, in most cases the immediate family is allowed to Dover to witness the homecoming ceremonies.

[Edited 2005-12-16 01:42:11]
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
Dokken10
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:19 pm

RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:53 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
Same reason living military persons going on temporary duty fly commercial airlines to their destination. COST! Far less expensive to buy a ticket in the cabin or the cargo hold on a commercial flight than to send an entier aircraft and crew.

We the US people are spending BILLIONS on the Iraq war,rebuilding of Iraq,the people of Iraq etc. The cost should not be cut or a factor when it comes to our Men and Women who gave their lives!!!! PERIOD!!!!
 
Electech6299
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:13 am

RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:15 pm

Quoting Dokken10 (Reply 47):
We the US people are spending BILLIONS on the Iraq war,rebuilding of Iraq,the people of Iraq etc. The cost should not be cut or a factor when it comes to our Men and Women who gave their lives!!!! PERIOD!!!!

So since you have all the political sublety of a cockroach, lets hear your answers: Should the money spent on soldiers go towards a) their transportation, funeral costs, family expenses surrounding the funeral, honor guard and escorts, life insurance, and more flak vests to prevent more people from dying; or b) jet fuel.

Get a life.
Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
 
dw9115
Posts: 382
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:54 pm

RE: Some Don't Like Air Freight For Soldiers Bodies

Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:40 pm

Quoting Electech6299 (Reply 46):
My brother serves in the US Army 3rd Infantry Division (The Old Guard),

The 3rd Infantry Divison (Mechanized) is based in Fort Stewart, Georgia and it's aviation assets are based at Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah about 40 miles away.

If your brother is in the Old Guard he is in the 3rd Infantry Regiment based at Fort Myer, Virginia (basically Washington D.C.)

Web for 3rd Infantry Regiment http://www.army.mil/oldguard/index2.htm
Web for 3rd Infantry Divison (Mechanized) http://www.stewart.army.mil/