BestWestern
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Sydney Europe Nonstop "uneconomical"

Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:29 pm

Snippets From RATI

The ultra-long range aircraft on offer do “not have enough payload and yield to make it a profitable operation”.

“As well, our commercial people did not feel the savings in elapsed time between the non-stop and one-stop journey was great enough to appeal to a wide enough passenger base.”

“Neither the Boeing 777 or the A340 provide an economical solution to our desire to have some of our services over-fly mid-point hubs,” Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon says in a statement.
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Doona
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RE: Sydney Europe Nonstop "uneconomical"

Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:43 pm

"Uneconomical"? I'd call it "un-bloody-comfortable"!

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Mats
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BestWestern
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RE: Sydney Europe Nonstop "uneconomical"

Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:51 pm

Quoting Doona (Reply 1):
"Uneconomical"? I'd call it "un-bloody-comfortable"!

Basically - QF analysts couldnt proove that the additional yield from operating non stop would outweigh the siginificant extra costs of operating .

This is a bad day for the 345/772LR
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Doona
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RE: Sydney Europe Nonstop "uneconomical"

Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:58 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 2):
This is a bad day for the 345/772LR

Personally, I would prefer two shorter flights over a really long one. The thought of being stuck in the middle seat in a 777 for 20+ hrs just scares me!

Cheers
Mats
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jwenting
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RE: Sydney Europe Nonstop "uneconomical"

Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:02 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 2):
Basically - QF analysts couldnt proove that the additional yield from operating non stop would outweigh the siginificant extra costs of operating .

This is a bad day for the 345/772LR

Not really, they couldn't prove it would be economical on that single specific segment.
I'd guess that it may well be profitable between for example Tokyo and New York or Moscow and Los Angeles.

I think Boeing have always well understood that the market for extreme range airliners is a small one, they're not stupid (despite moving their HQ to Daleyville).
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BestWestern
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RE: Sydney Europe Nonstop "uneconomical"

Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:19 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 4):
I'd guess that it may well be profitable between for example Tokyo and New York or Moscow and Los Angeles

NRT JFK is operated nonstop by the 747 and 772ER, so no need for the LR. 6737 miles

SVO LAX is operated nonstop by the 763 - so no need for ultra long haul equipment. 6079 miles
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manni
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RE: Sydney Europe Nonstop "uneconomical"

Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:46 pm

There's always CX or BA who could order a few, to fly LHR-HKG,... via the pacific.
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leelaw
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RE: Sydney Europe Nonstop "uneconomical"

Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:57 pm

Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
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BNE
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RE: Sydney Europe Nonstop "uneconomical"

Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:33 pm

The 787-8 will fly 8000 miles to 8600 miles right out of the box. I guess with the new technology that has gone into the 787 maybe one day allow the 787-8ULR will allow it to go the full distance.
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il75
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RE: Sydney Europe Nonstop "uneconomical"

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:37 am

Hi!

Trying to understand the economics behind the statement:

The ultra-long range aircraft is not good business because it burns too much fuel / it is too expensive to operate and/or carries too little passengers/cargo. Is that right?

Does it mean that an uneconomical destination (if you fly ULR) can be on the contrary profitable by making one stop? How come? Picking up/ leaving passengers at that stop or being able to operate a more efficient aircraft?

I would appreciate someone explain this to me...

Regards
Erico
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Sydney Europe Nonstop "uneconomical"

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:43 am

Well one thing people tend to forget is that you have to transport fuel to carry fuel -so the longer the flight the more overhead-weight an airliner has to carry just to lift the enormous amount of fuel for those long distances.
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cathay747
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RE: Sydney Europe Nonstop "uneconomical"

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:56 am

In addition to the economics stated by Dixon, I think there is another concept people are overlooking, namely that pax will have a limit on how long of a nonstop flight they will be willing to endure.

I have not heard of any studies being done on this, but I have to agree with Doona above, I could NOT handle 20+hrs on an airplane, EVEN IN FIRST CLASS WITH A FULLY-FLAT BED! I think I'd have to say that my personal limit is roughly 15-16hrs, which I've done (LAX-HKG @ 15hrs in F, and even in F I nearly went crazy) and I'd be willing to do JFK-HKG on the CX nonstop (about 16hrs), but that's it.

I'd equate this to the limit airlines are finding pax have for how long they are willing to fly on an RJ here in the U.S., where CO Exp. for example, is running them between WAS and IAH, which is 3.5hrs....WAYYYY too long, in my humble opinion, on an RJ.  faint 
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N79969
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RE: Sydney Europe Nonstop "uneconomical"

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:59 am

Perhaps the ultralong application of the technology won't pan out anytime soon but I think the ability to carry substantially more weight over existing routes is the flip side and will pay off sooner rather than later.
 
aeronick
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RE: Sydney Europe Nonstop "uneconomical"

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:07 am

Don't forget - if you're going for such a long range then you have to factor in the cost of carrying that extra weight of fuel.
 
mbj2000
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RE: Sydney Europe Nonstop "uneconomical"

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:40 am

So maybe in the long turn, the idea of a Sonic Cruiser wouldn't have been that bad. It's sad Boeing didn't follow it...

Quoting N79969 (Reply 12):
I have not heard of any studies being done on this, but I have to agree with Doona above, I could NOT handle 20+hrs on an airplane, EVEN IN FIRST CLASS WITH A FULLY-FLAT BED! I think I'd have to say that my personal limit is roughly 15-16hrs, which I've done (LAX-HKG @ 15hrs in F, and even in F I nearly went crazy) and I'd be willing to do JFK-HKG on the CX nonstop (about 16hrs), but that's it.
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