oneworld1
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QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:55 am

Well what do you think? With all the proposed 'point-to-pointers', the 777lr is a pipedream and all orders will be cancelled? This has proved the A380 is also a significant niche-player.

Your opinions most welcome!
 
travelin man
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:57 am

I think the SQ order will go a long way in determining the sales rate of the 777LR. And if Boeing can squeeze a few extra km out of it, I wouldn't be shocked to see QF & BA order it as well. Far too early to bury the 777LR.
 
airfrnt
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:01 am

Not at all. If anything the 787 is simply a smaller 772LR. Boeing needs to squeeze out a few more percentage points of the 777 (if it can) or Airbus needs to modernize the 340 and you will see QF sniffing around again. In the meantime, Boeings success with the 772LR this year will continue as more and more carriers abandon the A340.
 
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:11 am

Given SQ's (dis)satisfaction with the A345, I wouldn't be surprised to see them go 777LR.
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krisyyz
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:16 am

End of the B777LR, NO WAY!!

it just began!

QF wanted to replace their B767's, and the B787 is the best plane for the job. The B777LR and A346E are still in play, just not a part of this order.

I don't think the B777LR will score big order numbers, but it will be the premium ultra-long range aircraft. I don't think any other plane will touch the performance factors and results of the B777LR for a long time.

Krisyyz
 
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:22 am

Quoting Oneworld1 (Thread starter):
With all the proposed 'point-to-pointers', the 777lr is a pipedream and all orders will be cancelled?

 rotfl 

Much like the 764, the 777LR is a niche aircraft and was never intended for mass-marketing and mass-production. Also, the R&D costs were insignificant, as it only required minor tweaking of the existing 772ER to develop the LR variant.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Boeing may yet retool the LR to some degree to make it more appealing to airlines like QF.
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atmx2000
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:24 am

The problem for Qantas is their favorite route can't be satisified with the 772LR as it stands today. That means squat to any other parties interested in the 772LR, who don't have extreme routes that would stretch the capabilities of the 772LR and who might need the extra payload capability. Plus it is more fuel efficient than the 772ER.
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PyroGX41487
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:26 am

Hang on, WHAT? Boeing OR Qantas giving up on a 772LR that can make SYD/MEL - LHR?

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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 5):
Much like the 764, the 777LR is a niche aircraft and was never intended for mass-marketing and mass-production. Also, the R&D costs were insignificant, as it only required minor tweaking of the existing 772ER to develop the LR variant.

More to the point, the 777-200LR is really just all of the 777-300ER goodies stuffed into the shell of the 777-200ER.
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ikramerica
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:44 am

I'm starting to think the 772LR is not going to have many more sales.

One thing the 772LR offers is not just range, but much better payload at the extents of the 772ER range. Where the 772ER would be limited, the 772LR wouldn't.

But, the 789 also serves that role, and with better efficiency. Which is why Boeing was so hesitant to sell the 789 as anything but an 260 seat 8200nm plane at first. Now that it is a 290 seat 8600nm plane or 250 seat (3class) 8900nm plane, it cuts into the heart of the 772. The 772ER is effectively a 250 seat (3class) 7600nm plane. Though the 772ER carries better payload at it's limits, to fly the 789 on typical 772ER route is well under the 789 limits so it can also handle a good deal of payload with less fuel, and the 789 offers the ability to fly further.

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 3):
Given SQ's (dis)satisfaction with the A345, I wouldn't be surprised to see them go 777LR.

Not so sure. I am starting to think they would instead order the 789, use the 345s they have for 5 more years, then get rid of them.

Just because they wish they were better doesn't mean SQ is going to take a huge loss by dumping the 345s. From all reports, the SIN-EWR and SIN-LAX runs are turing a profit.

789 in 345 config would have at least 9000nm still air range, easily doing the SIN-LAX, SIN-JFK, SIN-ORD and any other routes they want, at a MUCH lesser fuel cost than the 772LR or 345. They could likely put more seats or more cargo on this route with a 789, and the jet is maybe 1/2 the price of the 772LR.
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BA
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:44 am

I don't think this will be the end of the 772LR.

The 772LR is clearly a niche aircraft and Boeing was very well aware of this fact from the very beginning.

So yes, you're not going to see many 772LRs gracing the skies. I do however think the 772LR Freighter has some good potential.

I think a 787LR if developed one day would attract strong interest however because its economics would likely be considerably better than the 772LR making it attractive to airlines wanting to operate ultra-long range routes.

Maybe then is when SYD-LHR-SYD may become realized...
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting Oneworld1 (Thread starter):
With all the proposed 'point-to-pointers', the 777lr is a pipedream and all orders will be cancelled?

No, I don't think so. First of all it's still very early in the program. Secondly, people have forgotten about the spin off of this aircraft... The 777-LRF, which the Cargo industry has crying out for.
Add to that a possible, and some say almost certain, military variant, the KC-777 for the U.S Air Force.

Qantas has made it very clear, that although they have not chosen a long range aircraft yet, they are still looking at both the 777 and A340 seriously.
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SWISSER
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:28 am

Both Boeing and Airbus predicted the ultra long range variants as a niche plane, and they are both part of a big family of aircrafts.

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 11):
No, I don't think so. First of all it's still very early in the program. Secondly, people have forgotten about the spin off of this aircraft... The 777-LRF, which the Cargo industry has crying out for.
Add to that a possible, and some say almost certain, military variant, the KC-777 for the U.S Air Force.

Exactly Sal!
The 777LR will never be a failure!
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:32 am

Quoting Oneworld1 (Thread starter):
Well what do you think?

My opinion differs substantially from yours sir

Quoting Oneworld1 (Thread starter):
With all the proposed 'point-to-pointers', the 777lr is a pipedream and all orders will be cancelled?

Name one cancelled order please. In fact for a frame that had 5 firm orders at the start of the year, let's look at where it will stand at year end

PIA 2 on order with a follow on order expected in the new year

EVA 3 on order, PAX variant, they recently confirmed they'll take them and also have an LoI for 10 x 772Fs

AC 13 772LR PAX on order with options and 2 772F, with options, on order

AI, 5 772LR PAX on firm order plus 5 options

AF, 5 772F on order, Launch customer plus 3 Options

Avion Group, 4 772F on order

EK 10 772LR PAX and 8 772F on order.

So, for a frame that had 5 firm orders at the start of the year we're ending the year with close to 50 commitments for the program. That's a result which can only lead to further orders for both variants. Strength to strength comes to mind, not "spell the end" sir

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Stitch
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:51 am

The 772LR has secured 23 orders this year, and I still think SQ will order 10. I also think down the road UA could use them. They have expressed interest in a ULR 777 in the past.

And don't count QF out just yet. Boeing continues to improve the 773ER now that it is in revenue service and those improvements drift back to the 772LR. And no doubt Boeing is working hard to make the 772LR viable for QF's needs.

What is the 787-9's underfloor payload capacity compared to the 772LR's? Cargo may be the bigger determiner then passengers on ULR flights, and I would not be surprised if the 772LR delivers better there then the 787-9 does.

And, of course, the 777F should be good for scores, if not hundreds, of orders over the next decade or two. There are a lot of MD-11Fs and DC-10Fs that need replacing and the 777F is the only real offering. And if you have 767Fs and A300Fs, the 777F will carry more, allowing you a smaller and more efficient fleet.

[Edited 2005-12-14 22:53:02]
 
flyinghippo
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:51 am

I think SQ will be the next and last NEW customer for the 772LR, other airlines might have follow on orders or exercising their options. So, 772LR is not dead in any means, but it will not reach half of the success of it's bigger sibling (773ER)

[Edited 2005-12-14 22:52:26]
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:11 am

WTF is with all these posts? What, because ONE airline doesn't order the 772LR, the program is dead? I mean, you've got to be kidding me...this is just as ridiculous as saying the A380 is dead because Boeing launched the 748I.

And I might add, QF has stated that the CURRENT proposals don't meet their requirements for a "hub-buster" but that's not to say Boeing (or Airbus) can't go back and magically find some extra range as shown already with the 773ER.
 
AC787
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:14 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 15):
but it will not reach half of the success of it's bigger sibling (773ER)

it was never expected to do so
 
sq212
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:22 am

A345 is closer to dead than 777LR.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the 777LR order and commitments already exceeds A345 total in 1 year time.

Cheers
 
YoungFlyer
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:25 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 5):

Much like the 764, the 777LR is a niche aircraft and was never intended for mass-marketing and mass-production.

couldn't agree more. I would not be shocked to see more QF orders for some 777's of any kind too. I don't think that the LR was suppose to sell big time, though I think it is perfect for QF. Besides, Boeing executives are probably too drunk to care right now! 115 airplanes in one day baby!!!!!!!!!
Dan
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:28 am

One can't look at the 772LR alone. It was developed along with the 777-300ER and from what I understand cost Boeing very little extra to develop from the 773ER....

And if you look at the 773ER and 772LR as one, then it has been an amazing success and will continue to sell well for years to come...Even if the 772LR only gets 1 order for every 5 773ER.
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Islandboy
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:53 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
One thing the 772LR offers is not just range, but much better payload at the extents of the 772ER range. Where the 772ER would be limited, the 772LR wouldn't.

But, the 789 also serves that role, and with better efficiency.

Yes, but the 789 isn't rolling out the factory util 2010. And then you would have to had reserved delivery slots. The 772LR will have a four year headstart.
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N79969
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:03 am

There are three applications for this airplane in my view:

1. Ultralong haul flying on new city pairs
2. Flying extra payload on existing routes
3. Freighter.

Although I agree that number one may be a low volume business, 2 and 3 may generate more than enough to offset any unmet expectation.
 
krisyyz
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:40 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 13):
AC 13 772LR PAX on order with options and 2 772F, with options, on order

Has AC broken down its B777 order?

The 18 pax B777 and 2 B777F's where the original order. So what your saying is that AC will take 13 B772LR's and 5 B773ERs and 2 B772LRFs?

Do you have a source on this?

Krisyyz
 
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Stitch
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:47 am

I do not believe AC has yet broken down their 773ER/772LR mix. They need at least two 772LRs to handle YVR-HKG. I would think they might want to drop HNL and serve SYD direct from YVR and YYZ, so that might need four more 772LRs (unless the 773ER can do it). That would leave 12 773ERs for their higher-capacity routes.
 
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:12 am

Quoting BA (Reply 10):
I do however think the 772LR Freighter has some good potential.

It is NOT the same thing. It is the 777F, we are talking about the 777LR.

Boeing was very smart to see the writing on the wall and launch the 777F right away. Usually, Fs are launched later when the demand for pax versions has dropped, and the model is being converted to freighter by third parties.

Boeing saw that the 772LR maybe wasn't selling as a pax plane, but the same technology allowed for a long range freighter. Smart.

Doesn't mean the 772LR as a pax plane is a success.

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 12):
The 777LR will never be a failure!

How does "the end of 777LR" equal failure? As a derivative of a sub-family: 773ER, 772LR, 777F, it will sell fewer numbers, but it is part of a family that shared development costs, so even if it doesn't sell a lot (and it won't), it will not be a failure.

Unless the 345/346 are turned into freighters, that derivative sub-family is a different story.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 16):
What, because ONE airline doesn't order the 772LR

While the 772LR offers great payload, it also offers range, and this next part is more related to range, as I can't see the added payload as being worth the huge investment for a lot of carriers when a 773ER would also do the job on most "payload" rotues and costs the same.

But yes, because the biggest airline that these jets were targeted at didn't buy it, yes it is a bad sign. Other airlines will not be blind to QFs decision. Australia is so far from so many places, QF had the most reasons to order the plane.

Now SQ could still get it, but they already have the 345 to fly the two routes they really need it for, and the 772LR might not be economically feasible to buy, then dump the 345s. It might be better to wait until 2010 for the 789, at 1/2 the price. At 5 frames, that's $350 million fewer dollars or so. Can't tell me that buying the 772LR now versus the 789 later will save SQ more than $350 million dollars, not even counting that after 2010, SQ would have a more efficient aircraft in the 789.

BA might be able to use the jets, but only on select routes at a reduced seating and they aren't talking of taking any new planes until 2009. 2010 for the 789 isn't such a big deal for them in this regard.

EK only really needs it for flights to the US west coast and Mexico. They bought theirs, and if they don't work out, they can convert them to freighters. They already fly a 777 fleet and are taking 773ERs, so for them it makes more sense. I can't see EK buying a lot more, however, as the future for them is the 789/10 or the 359.

Airlines in Japan could only really use it on flights to South Africa or Peru. Not likely a selling point.

USA airlines only need it if they want to fly non-stop to Singapore or Australia or New Zealand from the east coast, and right now, none of our fly to those places from the west coast except for UA to SYD.

It's a very expensive aircraft with high costs to fly. Not as high as the 345, but still high.

Quoting Islandboy (Reply 21):
Yes, but the 789 isn't rolling out the factory util 2010. And then you would have to had reserved delivery slots. The 772LR will have a four year headstart.

772LRs aren't available yet. They EIS in a few months, but the 777 line is pretty well booked up. Yes, you will still get a 3 year head start with the 772LR, but it might not be worth it if the costs are so much more than a 789 (operating, purchase, maintenance)

Quoting N79969 (Reply 22):
1. Ultralong haul flying on new city pairs
2. Flying extra payload on existing routes
3. Freighter.

1. sounds like the research QF did found it to be far from pratical.
2. true, but the 773ER can do this as well carrying more pax, and costs about the same to buy/operate
3. again, not the point of this thread, but obviously. and the 772LR does have a value on the used market as an F conversion that the 773ER likely doesn't, though who knows. In 15 years B might offer a 773ER special freighter conversion program.

I love the 772LR as an idea and as a record setter and all that. I thought it made sense for QF because Boeing tried to sell the 10000nm ability. If QF says it doesn't like it, my view of it as viable is diminished. The economics must have been too poor, despite the amazing ability. Simple as that.
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:16 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 23):
Has AC broken down its B777 order?

Yes, they have.

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 23):
The 18 pax B777 and 2 B777F's where the original order

No. The original order was for 18 firm 777 orders of a various mix. The only known component was that 2 772F would be included.

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 23):
So what your saying is that AC will take 13 B772LR's and 5 B773ERs and 2 B772LRFs?

No, they will take the following

3 x 773ER
2 x 772F
13 x 772LR

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 23):
Do you have a source on this?

Indeed, Boeing and Air Canada, please refer to following link

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/...ageid=m25062&RequestTimeout=100000

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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Ken777
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:42 am

I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing and QF will continue on the 772LR approach to SYD-LHR-SYD. Basically it appears that the plane needs some more refinement (read additional miles) and when it gets there we'll see a QF order. This one will simply take more time and effort.
 
krisyyz
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:43 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 26):

Thanks PanAM_DC10!

So I guess the AC will get all of their B773ERs first in March to June 07 and the rest will be LRs and LRFs

Krisyyz
 
aerlinguscargo
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:09 pm

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 12):
and some say almost certain, military variant, the KC-777 for the U.S Air Force.

Anyone have more info on this topic. I thought that Boeing was offering the 767 as their player in the tanker market.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:20 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
And, of course, the 777F should be good for scores, if not hundreds, of orders over the next decade or two. There are a lot of MD-11Fs and DC-10Fs that need replacing and the 777F is the only real offering. And if you have 767Fs and A300Fs, the 777F will carry more, allowing you a smaller and more efficient fleet.

DC10, maybe, but you will see carriers that are flying the MD11F, will continue to fly them for at least the next 10 years. The MD11's are not that old to warrant replacing them.
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GQfluffy
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:28 pm

Quoting BA (Reply 10):
So yes, you're not going to see many 772LRs gracing the skies.

Not now, but I doubt the program will die anytime soon. Besides, while they slowly kick out 772LR's...they can always tweak more range out of it. Things change...
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N79969
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:35 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
again, not the point of this thread, but obviously. and the 772LR does have a value on the used market as an F conversion that the 773ER likely doesn't, though who knows. In 15 years B might offer a 773ER special freighter conversion program.

Disagreed. The incremental costs to develop the 772LR can be amortized across both passenger airplanes and freighters because Boeing is offering both. If you exclude freighters to judge the success (or lack of) the program, it is not an accurate measure of business performance.
 
B2707SST
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:07 pm

Quoting Aerlinguscargo (Reply 29):
Anyone have more info on this topic. I thought that Boeing was offering the 767 as their player in the tanker market.

In short, the Air Force has changed its requirements. The word now is that the Pentagon is looking for a combination freighter, troop transport, and tanker aircraft that will complement the C-17 in its role as an outsize cargo and short/undeveloped field transport. The 767 is too small and has too little payload uplift to do this, and while the C-17s are very capable in their specific mission class, a 777LR-class freighter would be more efficient in long-haul logistics flights between major Air Force bases.

Boeing is also likely getting anxious about a decision on the 767 line. According to Randy Baseler, they have to decide whether to keep it open or shut it down sometime next year. Unless the government really wants 767s, that space in Everett would be better used for a second 787 line.


For more info:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/military/read.main/39532/

--B2707SST
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Johnny
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:28 pm

I think both A345 and B772LR are niche a/c only.They both do not offer the superior fuel efficiency of the B787 or A350,so they simply cannot meet the requirements for a economical operation on Point to Point-Routes at the same cost as for instance B744 would have with a enroute stop.

My peronal opinon is that it will be more and more important to lower the seat-mile-cost at all.that is only possible with bigger airplanes, not with smaller on point to point-flights.

in case of the B777LR i do not see that big number of sales,because it is way too expensive to aquire.
for sure it a great replacement for the MD11,but a converted B777-200ER would do the job good enough at significantly lower costs.The same situation is for the A343.

In the next 5-10 years there will be hundreds of second-hand B777-200ER,A343 and A333 available,because of the new B787-9,and the A350.Lots of big airlines willl change their fleets with the new equipment.

Cargo conversion will be the way,not newly aquired airplanes.
 
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RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:51 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
I'm starting to think the 772LR is not going to have many more sales.

One thing the 772LR offers is not just range, but much better payload at the extents of the 772ER range. Where the 772ER would be limited, the 772LR wouldn't.

But, the 789 also serves that role, and with better efficiency. Which is why Boeing was so hesitant to sell the 789 as anything but an 260 seat 8200nm plane at first. Now that it is a 290 seat 8600nm plane or 250 seat (3class) 8900nm plane, it cuts into the heart of the 772. The 772ER is effectively a 250 seat (3class) 7600nm plane. Though the 772ER carries better payload at it's limits, to fly the 789 on typical 772ER route is well under the 789 limits so it can also handle a good deal of payload with less fuel, and the 789 offers the ability to fly further.

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 3):
Given SQ's (dis)satisfaction with the A345, I wouldn't be surprised to see them go 777LR.

Not so sure. I am starting to think they would instead order the 789, use the 345s they have for 5 more years, then get rid of them.

Just because they wish they were better doesn't mean SQ is going to take a huge loss by dumping the 345s. From all reports, the SIN-EWR and SIN-LAX runs are turing a profit.

789 in 345 config would have at least 9000nm still air range, easily doing the SIN-LAX, SIN-JFK, SIN-ORD and any other routes they want, at a MUCH lesser fuel cost than the 772LR or 345. They could likely put more seats or more cargo on this route with a 789, and the jet is maybe 1/2 the price of the 772LR.

This argument makes perfect sense to me. It will be even worse for the 200LR if they launch the 787-10 for EK.
One Nation Under God
 
Amy
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:48 am

RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:10 pm

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 1):
I wouldn't be shocked to see QF & BA order it as well.

I would. First off, Qantas clearly stated earlier this year that it has no interest in running LHR-SYD non-stop. As for BA, they're not the kind of airline to make such a brash (and frankly pointless) move.

If either carrier order order the LR, I would expect Qantas to be the one. They may announce new long haul aircraft in 2006. BA has said it won't order new aircraft for a few years.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 2):
In the meantime, Boeings success with the 772LR this year will continue as more and more carriers abandon the A340.

Name one carrier that has abandoned the A340. Name one damned carrier who took delivery of A340s, then got rid of them in favour of T7s. Fact of the matter is, while some A340 operators have stopped buying A340s and started buying T7s (like AF for example) all the major A340 operators (e.g. IB, LH) still are and will be for a long time to come.

Please stop filling the forum with this speculative b*llocks which has no basis in fact.
A340-300 - slow, but awesome!
 
sunrisevalley
Posts: 5008
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:26 am

RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:29 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 16):
And I might add, QF has stated that the CURRENT proposals don't meet their requirements for a "hub-buster" but that's not to say Boeing (or Airbus) can't go back and magically find some extra range as shown already with the 773ER.



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
Basically it appears that the plane needs some more refinement (read additional miles) and when it gets there we'll see a QF order.


The ability or inability to fly the route was NOT the reason given by Dixon. He said that the QF commercial people did not think that the time saving of the non-stop flight was enough to make it attractive. Probably the premium that QF had in mind weighed in on that issue also.
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:30 pm

Quoting Amy (Reply 36):
Name one damned carrier who took delivery of A340s, then got rid of them in favour of T7s.

Does Singapore Air ring a bell?
 
na
Posts: 9170
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:32 pm

The 772LR is some kind of 21st century version of the 747SP (the A340-500 fairly is as well).
Who the hell wants to sit in a plane for more than 12 hours in a row, honestly? Stressed managers with a high risk of a heart failure? Gosh, I wouldn´t choose to fly so, even if at ticket doesn´t cost more.

I´m sure the 772LR will sell pretty well as a freighter (as it will inherit the sizable market currently served by MD-11s), but as a pax-aircraft it only aims at a small niche in a niche.
The 772LR is a great-looking airplane, and a recordbreaker. So was the Concorde.
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:41 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 39):
Who the hell wants to sit in a plane for more than 12 hours in a row, honestly? Stressed managers with a high risk of a heart failure? Gosh, I wouldn�t choose to fly so, even if at ticket doesn�t cost more.

I hope you are aware that even without the arrival of the A345 or 772LR, there are already dozens of flights all across the globe that operate in excess of 12 hours, filled with hundreds of people which are obviously willing to seat through such long nonstop flights instead of connecting. Flights between 12-15 hours are pretty much a standard these days.
 
cloudyapple
Posts: 1261
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:01 am

RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:45 pm

Quoting Amy (Reply 36):
Name one carrier that has abandoned the A340

And Air Canada.
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
cloudyapple
Posts: 1261
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:01 am

RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:45 pm

And Cathay Pacific's A346s.
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
cloudyapple
Posts: 1261
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:01 am

RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:48 pm

And Austrian Airlines' A342.
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
phollingsworth
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:05 am

RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:57 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 34):
in case of the B777LR i do not see that big number of sales,because it is way too expensive to aquire.
for sure it a great replacement for the MD11,but a converted B777-200ER would do the job good enough at significantly lower costs.The same situation is for the A343.

In the next 5-10 years there will be hundreds of second-hand B777-200ER,A343 and A333 available,because of the new B787-9,and the A350.Lots of big airlines willl change their fleets with the new equipment.

Cargo conversion will be the way,not newly aquired airplanes.

The logic holds until you notice that the cargo market is really going to be a big driver in aviation growth in the future, probably larger than passenger growth. Product trapped in shipping now makes up a significant portion of most manufacturers inventory. Therefore, the shorter the trip the less inventory. Further, as the transit time decreases the effect of any disruption increases exponentially. This means that over-time the cargo market will drive to purpose built sub-models in-place of conversions. Payloads will also trend denser and this will make current 300 Pax conversions less attractive.
 
na
Posts: 9170
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:26 pm

Quoting Oneworld1 (Thread starter):
Flights between 12-15 hours are pretty much a standard these days.

Sure, my longest nonstop was 14 hours. But I just mentioned the 12 hours because up to possible 772LR flights of 20 hours or so that means at least half a dozen hours more than "normal" longdistance flights. And thats nothing want I to suffer for sure.
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2543
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:10 am

RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:52 am

Just saw the total orders for the 777LR....

YES!!! Finally AC has become the launch customer for a Boeing airliner!!!  bigthumbsup 
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:52 am

Quoting Amy (Reply 36):
Name one carrier that has abandoned the A340. Name one damned carrier who took delivery of A340s, then got rid of them in favour of T7s.

try AC, SQ amongst others,and given the CX order, it seems like CX is "abandoning" their A340's also


.
"Up the Irons!"
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2543
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:10 am

RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:01 am

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 46):
YES!!! Finally AC has become the launch customer for a Boeing airliner!!!

Sorry, Didn't go back to 2000, 2002 and saw PIA and EVA orders for 777LRs...  

Wasn't there similar rumors of doom for the 747 back in early 1970s when Lockheed was planning pax versions of the C-5?

[Edited 2005-12-15 19:08:42]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: QF Order: Spell The End Of 777lr

Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:07 am

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 46):
Just saw the total orders for the 777LR....

YES!!! Finally AC has become the launch customer for a Boeing airliner!!!  bigthumbsup 

too bad AC had to put the order on hold until the negotiations/arbitration went through....otherwise Boeing could have chalked up one more carrier on their plane..

unfortunately, Jet Airways has replaced their -200LR with -300ER... Sad

will look great in AC colours though.... yes 


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"Up the Irons!"