Spark
Topic Author
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Flights From California To India?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:35 pm

This is something that I wonder about?
Why have other airlines basically surrended the California to India market to SQ?
In talking with various Indian friends I know, they all say that they fly to India via Singapore, which is a little like flying to New York via Miami. Nobody else really tries to compete on the market, and yet I believe it is a very lucrative market.
Why doesn't Air India fly to SFO? The Bay Area has a very large Indian population, which is mostly affluent. I realize that there is little loyalty with Air India from Indians, but it seems logical that they should try to at least serve SFO.
Another question, which is related, is Air Pacific only flying to LAX. Once again, there is a very large Fijian Indian population in the Bay Area, and I believe they could do well serving SFO.
Does anybody know why airlines aren't doing this?
 
vega
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:11 pm

Well AI does fly direct from LAX to DEL with a stop in FRA. That's a somewhat shorter flight in distance, including an SFO-LAX connection, than say SFO-SIN-DEL.
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
Nimish
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:42 pm

I have no idea.. But at least airlines with hubs in SFO should start services to India. SFO/SJC-NRT-BLR on UA would work well - and the yields would be good as well. Currently UA sells a few seats on LH's SFO-FRA-BLR (which is perpetually sold out). Others like SQ, TG, MH, BA, AF etc. definitely have a fair amount of pax connecting from California to India.

This would be an ideal market for AI to use it's 777LR (if and when they are ordered and arrive). I don't think any US carrier has ordered ULR a/c that would work for this route (like SFO-BLR or MAA or HYD).
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cricket
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:15 pm

AI has plans to start a SFO service. The earlier Air Service Agreement between India and US restricted access to carriers from both sides to just four airports. AI served EWR, JFK, ORD and LAX. Now, with Indian carriers able to serve more cities, SFO is is the first new station that AI will add. Methinks a flight will be added in the Summer 2006 schedule, that is they can find a few more 744's to lease.
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lehpron
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:41 pm

Speaking of which, I was looking at flights to India back in August for an October flight that were around US$1,500 per person at the time. While I have never been able to get the free time, the prices have since risen to US$8,000 person if I planned to go next week.

How? I'm trying to do SAN - IXE
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
N1120A
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:06 pm

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 4):
I planned to go next week.

The Christmas holiday is your issue there
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
soups
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:09 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Quoting Lehpron (Reply 4):
I planned to go next week.

The Christmas holiday is your issue there

Good luck if you find a seat and if you do i won't be less than $2000
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
OB1783P
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:52 pm

Last time I flew from Singapore to Newark (before the non-stop), the 744 was at least 1/4 occupied by Indians. My neighbor was a very pretty lady who was constantly applying lotions, readjusting this and that. I talked with her about Indian cooking (my hobby), Kasoori Methi, Panir and so forth.

Anyway, hours after departure, she said "We are flying over my city," That was Kolkatta. Myself, I hate backtracking, and her itinerary would have driven me crazy. She explained that SQ was cheaper and also much nicer than AI. In Newark, I ended up helping a lot of the Indian passengers use the right immigration forms (unaccountably, the flight crew did not have enough forms, and some were in Portuguese). That was all very pleasant and cosmopolitan. My friend then connected onto a Houston flight on CO.

Funny, but next time I visit my dad in Paris, I firmly intend to fly AI, so that I can make up my own mind.
I've flown thousands of miles and I can tell you it's a lot safer than crossing the street!
 
cricket
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:31 pm

Quoting OB1783P (Reply 7):
Anyway, hours after departure, she said "We are flying over my city," That was Kolkatta. Myself, I hate backtracking, and her itinerary would have driven me crazy. She explained that SQ was cheaper and also much nicer than AI.

AI's fares on certain sectors are not the cheapest. In fact, I believe that their LAX flight is rather expensive and you can get cheaper tix on VS, AF. Your post also raises another interesting issue - younger, more urbane Indians prefer flying with foreign carriers rather than AI. That said, AI still has a hardcore fan-club of conservative folks and foodies. You'll love the Indian food on AI.
I wonder how S2's international food quality is going to be?
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Kahala777
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:30 pm

Quoting Spark (Thread starter):
Why doesn't Air India fly to SFO? The Bay Area has a very large Indian population, which is mostly affluent. I realize that there is little loyalty with Air India from Indians, but it seems logical that they should try to at least serve SFO.
Another question, which is related, is Air Pacific only flying to LAX. Once again, there is a very large Fijian Indian population in the Bay Area, and I believe they could do well serving SFO.

Air India

It is very possible that in the near future you will see routes such as HYD-FRA-SFO via the 772. The San Francisco market has long been overlooked by many airlines. In addition it is also possible that Air India may route a flight from San Francisco to India via Paris, seeing as that United Airlines is dropping the route from its network. The potential is there. Hundreds of people per day travel from San Francisco to India. The market currently is in the hands of Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific Airways, Korean Airlines, Lufthansa, Air France, British Airways, KLM, and Virgin Atlantic.

Air Pacific

It has been said for a long time that Air Pacific chose Los Angeles because of a favorable offer they were given back when they entered the North American market. San Francisco, as of recent has seen an increase in immigration, and travel from/to the South Pacific. If Air Pacific were to operate the San Francisco flight with the 737-800 as they do to Vancouver via Honolulu, the flight is sure to be a success. It could also be possible to route NAN-KOA-SFO as well. There is a good number of Fijians that live on the Big Island, from what has been heard. KOA, is equipped with Immigration facilities, and a simple operation 2, or 3 times per week on a route such as NAN-KOA-SFO could work with the 737-800, or 700. of course there is also the option of a nonstop on the 767-300, perhaps with a continuation to Portland or Seattle.

Air Tahiti Nui

Many have been talking about the chance of TN entering the San Francisco market with the A340 on a 3 flight per week basis. Of course this would only come into play when TN gained enough equipment to serve the route. It could be also possible that TN could route the service on a MEL or BNE-PPT-SFO route. In the past PPT was served from San Francisco by Qantas, Air France, and UTA. In the past PPT was served from Oakland by Corsair, and for a very short period AOM. There is a healthy demand for Tahiti from San Francisco, and the market is there. The old myth that Los Angeles, is the only airport that works, is no longer valid.


KAHALA777
 
jasepl
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:56 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 4):
I'm trying to do SAN - IXE

Why? I may be mistaken, but weren't you the one who was moaning and groaning about how you dislike your ethnic origin, can't relate to it and don't want to have anything to do with it?
 
lehpron
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 10):
Why? I may be mistaken, but weren't you the one who was moaning and groaning about how you dislike your ethnic origin, can't relate to it and don't want to have anything to do with it?

I had a surplus in scholarships and wanted to give my mom a vacation to India. If you want to be a douche by making assumptions and not giving any ideas, that is fine by me.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting Spark (Thread starter):
Why doesn't Air India fly to SFO? The Bay Area has a very large Indian population, which is mostly affluent. I realize that there is little loyalty with Air India from Indians, but it seems logical that they should try to at least serve SFO.

from what I know, AI want to fly to SFO sometime in spring of 2006....also, some family friends are traveling to India from SFO on LH via FRA.....heard it's not that bad...

Actually, if one looks at the International Terminal @ SFO during BA/VS check in/departure times, one will see many Indians, and I would assume a few are connecting to India..

I think EK will eventually try SFO, and it shouldn't be too difficult for pax to connect to India via DXB..
"Up the Irons!"
 
SRT75
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:28 am

Is LH an option, connecting in FRA?

I would think that BA is also an option, heading through LHR?

There is talk that UA will be returing to India post-bankruptcy. Although, UA 1 used to fly the "wrong" way (against prevailing winds LAX-HKK-DEL-LHR-LAX -- IIRC)

Also KL/NW through AMS from SFO.

What would be really interesting would be a non-stop SFO/LAX-India with a T7-LR.
 
spink
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:44 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 1):
Well AI does fly direct from LAX to DEL with a stop in FRA. That's a somewhat shorter flight in distance, including an SFO-LAX connection, than say SFO-SIN-DEL.

The actual flight miles difference between the SFO-FRA-BLR or SFO-HKG-SIN-BLR is pretty minimal. I've done it both ways several times, including doing SFO-LAX-SIN-BLR (actually was about $3000 cheaper to fly on SQ19/20 than SQ1/2 go figure). In my experience, I like the SQ flights better than the LH flights. The service and IFE in SQ is much better. If someone started an SFO-BLR non-stop service, I'm pretty sure that it would be full all the time and they could probably charge a reasonable 10-20% premium for it as well.
 
jasepl
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:22 pm

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 11):
I had a surplus in scholarships and wanted to give my mom a vacation to India. If you want to be a douche by making assumptions and not giving any ideas, that is fine by me.

Ha! So your opinion hasn't changed, has it? Not that you had anything to say about that.

Besides, go back and reas what you wrote. And then identify where you said anything about sending your mother on holiday.

Cheers,

The Douche
 
trvyyz
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:41 pm

Quoting Spark (Thread starter):
Why doesn't Air India fly to SFO?

The small fleet size should be the reason.
BOM/DEL are also connected by CX and KE over the pacific.
 
AC787
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:53 pm

With the new Canada/US open skies wouldnt it be possible for AC to use one of its 777LR's on a YVR-SFO-BLR route? That would be cool, UA would codeshare heavily and the flight would for sure go out full I would imagine.
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:57 am

Quoting Cricket (Reply 8):
That said, AI still has a hardcore fan-club of conservative folks and foodies. You'll love the Indian food on AI.

This is an unfortunate trend that even I have witnessed.....without any firm experience to base their opinions, most younger and middle age Indians have this tendency to outright condemn AI and praise foreign carriers....I have flown extensively on AI and recently had the misfortune to fly LH economy class....the highly opinionated Indian travelling public don't know what they are missing.....AI economy class is far better than LH....I'm waiting for the indignant responses.... duck 
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:00 am

By the way, AI flies from LAX to both DEL and BOM....

Lot of California based Indians prefer to fly either via SIN on SQ or via Seoul on Korean....I guess fares make a difference....and the Seoul route must be much faster than the SIN route....
 
Nimish
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:44 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 18):
AI economy class is far better than LH....I'm waiting for the indignant responses

Unfortunately the whole experience is much worse. The main reasons are:

* Lack of direct connectivity to most cities in India or the US (ex SFO-BLR on AI would involve SFO-LAX-FRA-BOM-BLR or something as convoluted)
* Poor ground staff attitude - ticket counters, check-in counters etc.
* And most importantly - terrible reliability/ontime performance. Things have got slightly better in the last 1-2 months, but the summer season was a washout for AI, what with multiple cancellations, AOG, innumerable delays etc. Plus you have the poor ground handling during such crisis situations.

Foreign carriers like TG/SQ/LH/AF/BA etc are paying more attention to secondary cities like BLR/HYD (all have almost daily frequencies ex-BLR) rather than the "national" carrier AI. No wonder some Indians are not making a beeline to catch an AI flight.
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jasepl
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:44 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 18):
This is an unfortunate trend that even I have witnessed.....without any firm experience to base their opinions, most younger and middle age Indians have this tendency to outright condemn AI and praise foreign carriers....

That is not true. I, for one, used to swear by Air India until recently. Because of their limited reach, I found the added inconvenience to be not worth the bother.

This is taken from a post I made a few months ago:

Air India need to get their act together, or die. Plain and simple.

Yes, we've all heard before the sob stories of how government interference is handicapping the 'airline' - but enough already. Government ownership is equally a blessing and a curse. The simultaneous wronged widow / bitch in the manger act got old a long time ago.

Here's a few things AI must do. Note that this applies to long-haul flights only (to Europe and beyond) because regional operations are a gone case.

And these are all based on my own experiences with Air India. Not on some fantasy.

1. Ground services
In my experience, AI rank lowest in the world in terms on ground service. Check-in, airport conditions, staff professionalism, baggage services, etc, etc.
Shabby, shabby, shabby - on all counts - except the LHR lounge.

2. Standardised schedules
You never know when your flight to London's going to depart, or where, if at all, it's going to stop on the way. The BOM-LHR-ORD flight has a different number and schedule every time. What is going on?

3. Cabin crew
Where do I start with this one? The tottering old dears on AI do a good job, no doubt. But service isn't exactly as stellar as it is made out to be. I've flown DL and AF between Bombay and Paris this year, and found service yo be far better on both. Of the 3, I'd rank DL first, followed closely by AF, with AI bringing up the rear.
I've only ever had 2 FAs in the upstairs cabin, which is pathetic. DL have 36 seats in BusinessElite and at least 4 FAs. AF have 36 seats in L'Espace Affaires and 4 FAs. AI have 34 seats in Executive and I've never seen more than 2 FAs.
Besides, I feel like the the grannies and grandpas serving me on AI should be seated and I should be serving them!

4. Inflight product standardisation
Yes, we all know AI's planes are leased, but that's no excuse for the varying aircraft configurations. Some planes have signage in English and Hindi, some in Korean. Some have PTVs, some don't. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. The DVD players may be handed out, or they may not be. They might work, or they might not.

5. PTVs
It's no longer acceptable to not have functioning PTVs, at least in First and Business, with the same programming, across your fleet. Leased or not.

6. Aircraft conditions
Tatty (not filthy, just tatty) planes. Worn upholstery. Varying carpets - ranging from UA grey to nothing at all.

7. Catering
Yes, AI have some really good food, with plenty of options. But, yet again, it's not all it's made out to be. I found both AF and even DL to be much better.
Delta usually have 4 or 5 selections. The ones I ate were very good.
Air France usually have less selections, maybe 2 or 3, but they're outstanding.
AI lose out on overall quality of meal service and presentation as well.
The salad and the dessert wrapped in cling wrap is just plain wrong.

Besides, what do you mean you 'ran out of rum'?

Also, change the ghastly faux-silver samovar-like thing you serve tea out of. Everyone knows it's cheap aluminium and it looks incredibly tacky. Even in an AI cabin.

And, for the last time, a small packet of chips is NOT an effing appetiser!
 
jasepl
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:59 am

Quoting Nimish (Reply 20):
Foreign carriers like TG/SQ/LH/AF/BA etc are paying more attention to secondary cities like BLR/HYD (all have almost daily frequencies ex-BLR) rather than the "national" carrier AI. No wonder some Indians are not making a beeline to catch an AI flight.

I agree with the rest of your comments Nimish, but not with this one.

You can't expect Air India to provide daily nonstop or one-stop service from Bombay, Delhi, Ahmedabad, Bangalore, Madras, Hyderabad and Calcutta to everywhere in the world. No airline does that.

It's always going to be the foreign carriers who dominate the non-hub routes, just like you see in, for example, America. AA, DL etc fly internationally from only 4-5 cities each, most of which are their hubs. However, airlines like BA and AF fly to over a dozen cities each from their respective hubs.

For AI to be an effective international carrier, all their international flying must be concentrated at one or two hubs, at the most, with the odd route (Kerela - Middle East, for instance) filling the gaps.

That said, one of the biggest problems (in addition to those I talked about in my previous post) is that AI don't even service their one and only hub effectively. Until recently, you couldn't fly non-stop from Bombay to a single city east of Calcutta on Air India. They should at least sort out BOM operations first, before beginning to start random flights out of other cities.

Of course, the government isn't a big help in these matters. They often force AI & IC to fly routes that may not be commercially viable. All because someone, somewhere needs pleasing.

Not that AI help themselves either. They sontinue their belief-defying routings (eg: BOM-DEL-BKK-ICN, BOM-DEL-SIN, BOM-DEL-DXB, BOM-DEL-BKK-PVG etc), government mandated or not!
 
blrsea
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:23 am

I have flown AI a few times. One other peeve is their cancellation/re-routing charges. They charge some of the highest fees. I had to cancel a ticket once and lost $350 compared to $200-250 on Asiana/Cathay etc. Also, if the return date is changed, you have to pay $125-150 extra. This is free on SQ/CX etc. And AI ticket rates are not too less compared to others. These little things add up. I am talking about economy fares here, not Business/First class.
 
Nimish
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 22):
You can't expect Air India to provide daily nonstop or one-stop service from Bombay, Delhi, Ahmedabad, Bangalore, Madras, Hyderabad and Calcutta to everywhere in the world. No airline does that.

Well - I would expect them to provide either that, or provide a true hub in BOM. Unfortunately they do neither (I mean how many feeder flights does AI have from BLR to BOM - maybe 1 a day if that? Taking your own example, contrast the domestic feeders to AA's or UA's hubs  Wow!).

Which then brings me back to my original comment - if the others can fill a widebody every day from BLR to assorted cities east or west, why doesn't AI start some dedicated services from BLR? (OK I know - they don't have the a/c, and they can't get over their BOM fixation either)

Unfortunately for AI, until they do that, they'll remain the last choice of folks from here (which is what this whole drivel was all about in the first place  Wink)
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Nimish
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:33 am

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 22):
For AI to be an effective international carrier, all their international flying must be concentrated at one or two hubs

And don't forget the other big thing with running a true international hub - it cannot survive on O&D alone - you need to get a huge amount of feed into your hub from other cities in the country and region. Which is where AI falls flat on it's face (and entirely it's own doing, no fault of the GOI). Though they have about 10 or more BOM-LON flights a week, they are able to hardly sell any ex-BLR, since they insist on the BLR-BOM being flown on an AI flight! Forget about the gazillion other airlines flying BLR-BOM, if you want to fly AI on the BOM-LON sector, you better be prepared to fly much earlier (often a day!) on a AI flight. This does not make for an attractive airline..
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LAXDESI
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:49 am

I paid $1650 for my daughter's ticket, leaving on Dec. 18, for LAX-BOM-MAA-BOM-LAX on AI. All other airlines were more expensive for MAA from LAX.
This same ticket was $1850 a few weeks back-my neighbor bought one.. I guess the consolidators could not sell everything at $1850. Sometimes it pays to wait.
The same ticket is advertised for $975 starting January 1, 2006.

AI does not charge for one schedule change for tickets purchased in US. I have done this several times, and one time I changed it twice and I wasn't charged anything. I will post more on the profile of passengers today on my daughter's flight.

[Edited 2005-12-18 22:21:34]
 
jaysit
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 21):
AI have 34 seats in Executive and I've never seen more than 2 FAs.
Besides, I feel like the the grannies and grandpas serving me on AI should be seated and I should be serving them!

Actually, its only 26 seats in J Class on the Upper deck.
On my last flight, they had a middle-aged grumpy Parsee lady with hair that made her look like a rather fat Afghan hound, and a younger man serving us. A 21-year old pretty girl was doing all the prep work in the galley and it seemed like it was her first time in the air. She was hopeless.

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 21):
The salad and the dessert wrapped in cling wrap is just plain wrong.

Its also not Business Class quality. AI's meals in J Class are no better than SQ's in Economy. Yes, the Indian entrees are tasty, but the rest of the meal is rubbish.

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 21):
And, for the last time, a small packet of chips is NOT an effing appetiser!

Amen.
Someone should tell the GOI babus what a meal is all about.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
spink
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:17 am

Quoting Nimish (Reply 25):
And don't forget the other big thing with running a true international hub - it cannot survive on O&D alone - you need to get a huge amount of feed into your hub from other cities in the country and region. Which is where AI falls flat on it's face (and entirely it's own doing, no fault of the GOI). Though they have about 10 or more BOM-LON flights a week, they are able to hardly sell any ex-BLR, since they insist on the BLR-BOM being flown on an AI flight! Forget about the gazillion other airlines flying BLR-BOM, if you want to fly AI on the BOM-LON sector, you better be prepared to fly much earlier (often a day!) on a AI flight. This does not make for an attractive airline..

Having done SFO-FRA-BOM-BLR, I can easily say, I would never do it again. The layover in BOM is horrible. The first airline that can do SFO-BLR is going to make a mint. From a 24+ hour total transit time down to 15-16 hours is very very attractive and there is a lot of traffic from the SFO bay area to BLR.
 
jasepl
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:28 am

Quoting Nimish (Reply 24):
Well - I would expect them to provide either that, or provide a true hub in BOM. Unfortunately they do neither (I mean how many feeder flights does AI have from BLR to BOM - maybe 1 a day if that?



Quoting Nimish (Reply 25):
And don't forget the other big thing with running a true international hub - it cannot survive on O&D alone - you need to get a huge amount of feed into your hub from other cities in the country and region. Which is where AI falls flat on it's face (and entirely it's own doing, no fault of the GOI).

That is true and I concur. That's what I meant when I mentioned the need for AI to at least service BOM effectively and then start worrying about other cities.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 24):
OK I know - they don't have the a/c, and they can't get over their BOM fixation either

It's not just that. AI will have to depend almost exclusively on O&D traffic from Bangalore, which probably won;t justify the number of flights you're talking about. Other airlines clearly have far more connecting passengers.
If Bangalore did have that much of an O&D market to so many places, we would have seen more foreign carriers there already. Not to mention the likes of Jet and Sahara.
And I always laugh when someone mentions AI's Bombay fixation. Not that it isn't true, but I always see Dilly as AI's fixation! And that damned Dilly stopover is reason enough to avoid AI like the plague on certain routes!

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 27):
On my last flight, they had a middle-aged grumpy Parsee lady with hair that made her look like a rather fat Afghan hound, and a younger man serving us. A 21-year old pretty girl was doing all the prep work in the galley and it seemed like it was her first time in the air. She was hopeless.

ROTFLMAO!

A younger man? Hmmm... How was he?  Wink

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 27):
Yes, the Indian entrees are tasty, but the rest of the meal is rubbish.

True. The salad's usually seen better days. And what's the deal with the chocolate bar (with price tag)?
 
Spark
Topic Author
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:07 am

Cool,
Thanks for all the information that was provided in this very interesting discussion. I learned quite a lot about that route:
AI will likely start service to SFO in the future.
AI is a poorly run airline (ok, I already knew that)
The real market is SFO-BLR.
Now here is another question.
If the first airline to start SFO-BLR service will make a killing (which I'm sure they would), why doesn't an airline start the flight?
 
spink
Posts: 316
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:34 am

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 29):
It's not just that. AI will have to depend almost exclusively on O&D traffic from Bangalore, which probably won;t justify the number of flights you're talking about. Other airlines clearly have far more connecting passengers.
If Bangalore did have that much of an O&D market to so many places, we would have seen more foreign carriers there already. Not to mention the likes of Jet and Sahara.

From what I know, Singapore, Lufthansa, and Thai, were almost always full into and out of Bangalore, I don't know what it is like right now with the addition of BA, AF, and anyone else I forgot. Judging from the prices that Singapore and Lufthansa are currently charging, it looks like things are still pretty full. I know that on more than one occasion, people at work have had to hold off on flight to BLR because there weren't any tickets available.

BLR-XXX-SFO and BLR-XXX-LAX have a lot of bussiness traffic because of all the tech sector related work. In the hotels, it seems like half the people are from either austin, sfo bay area, or boston/new york areas.
 
Nimish
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:37 am

Quoting Spark (Reply 30):
If the first airline to start SFO-BLR service will make a killing (which I'm sure they would), why doesn't an airline start the flight?

Because none of the armchair CEOs on this board actually own an airline  Smile

But honestly - it's probably because BLR is a new phenomenon. Traditionally BOM/DEL have had all the paying intl travellers.

To add to that, the only airlines capable of launching BLR-SFO non-stops don't have the a/c (Indian carriers), or are in Chap 11 and don't have the a/c (US carriers).
Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
 
spink
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:43 am

Quoting Spink (Reply 31):
Cool,
Thanks for all the information that was provided in this very interesting discussion. I learned quite a lot about that route:
AI will likely start service to SFO in the future.
AI is a poorly run airline (ok, I already knew that)
The real market is SFO-BLR.
Now here is another question.
If the first airline to start SFO-BLR service will make a killing (which I'm sure they would), why doesn't an airline start the flight?

because SFO-BLR is at 7500 nm which puts it in the same range as LAX-SIN which is on the outside edge of a 772ER/773ER/744ER. So you pretty much need a 777LR or a 345 to fly it.
 
kaitak744
Posts: 2088
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:36 pm

People don't realy care for Air India. Most people going from the U.S. to India go on TG, SQ, BA, or Malaysian. Those airlines have the biggest India network besides AI. Also, in a few years, check for Jet Airways. They seem to be growing rapidly and will probably have some good service from California to India with their 777-300ERs.
 
jaysit
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:28 pm

Since we're on the topic of San Francisco - Bangalore flights, is it true that the idiotic Karnataka government has changed the name of Bangalore to Binaggaluuru or some such rubbish?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
TinkerBelle
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:50 pm

Gee, where's Pomnath when you need him?? A perfect opportunity for him to bash VS flights to India and their use of G-VBUS. Happy holidays Pomnath, they probably banned you from this site and I bet you're reaqding this thread  biggrin .

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 35):
is it true that the idiotic Karnataka government has changed the name of Bangalore to Binaggaluuru or some such rubbish?

Say what? Why the heck to they change city names?

Quoting Spink (Reply 33):
So you pretty much need a 777LR or a 345 to fly it.

I bet AC will jump on this route once they get their 772LR's. YVR-SFO-BOM
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
stealthpilot
Posts: 502
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:22 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 35):
is it true that the idiotic Karnataka government has changed the name of Bangalore to Binaggaluuru or some such rubbish?

Nope, but the idiotic government might/will change Bangalore to Bangalooru next year (Nov 1st). Guess it's a trend after Mumbai, Kolkata and Chennai.
Mysore, Mangalore, Hubli and another city will/might also be renamed.
-Nikhil
eP007
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:28 pm

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 36):
I bet AC will jump on this route once they get their 772LR's. YVR-SFO-BOM

AC don't have freedom rights from SFO-BOM do they? I think AI might go for possibly a nonstop route with their -200LR's...

I think AI might be able to pull BLR-SFO/BOM-SFO/DEL-SFO nonstop with its -200LR it is purchasing..certainly DEL-SFO wouldn't be a problem with full load....

BOM-SFO might not be a problem, but I don't see BLR-SFO being a nonstop flight...which would be a shame, given the "tech-connection" between BLR-SJC/SFO....

on a side note....the -200LR flew BOM-SFO during its "world tour" via the polar route..was amazing to see it in person!  bigthumbsup 

actually, I think AI or AC should leave the colour scheme and just paint the tail!


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kaitak744
Posts: 2088
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:54 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 38):
actually, I think AI or AC should leave the colour scheme and just paint the tail!

I agree! better than AI's 20 year old scheme or AC's bare metal.
 
Nimish
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:08 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 35):
is it true that the idiotic Karnataka government has changed the name of Bangalore to Binaggaluuru or some such rubbish?

This is when India's beuracracy becomes a blessing, since any such change is not certain until another year at the least. The proposal is to make it "Bengaluru" or phonetically equivalent - which is what the Bengaloorean's already call the city.

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 36):
Say what? Why the heck to they change city names?

Politicians believe it will buy them votes, that's the only reason this is coming about. It's also good for the egos of the regional leaders, since it takes away the westernization of the name, and calls the city the way it's called by the locals.
Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
 
cricket
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:24 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 40):
Politicians believe it will buy them votes, that's the only reason this is coming about. It's also good for the egos of the regional leaders, since it takes away the westernization of the name, and calls the city the way it's called by the locals.

Huh??????? No-one I know calls it Bengaluru, and this is just an excuse to keep Deve Gowda happy. Instead of name-changing they should have improved the roads or infrastructure there.
Secondly, about everybody's point on AI. I believe AI will improve a lot. Th3e order for new planes will dramatically change the airline. AI will become a two-hub carrier concentarting on BOM and DEL in the near future (18-24 months). In the more distant future (40-48 months) it will need to open a southern hub, maybe MAA or BLR (but not two).
By the way, I know lots of people who travel into India via Taiwan nowadays, and one person I know even flew China Eastern via PVG (was his most difficult flight in terms of communication).
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:36 pm

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 15):
Quoting Lehpron (Reply 11):
I had a surplus in scholarships and wanted to give my mom a vacation to India. If you want to be a douche by making assumptions and not giving any ideas, that is fine by me.

Ha! So your opinion hasn't changed, has it? Not that you had anything to say about that

How do you determine if my opinion has changed or not? You are not stating the assumptions you make, you just go ahead and make them; have you ever asked a question without making a decision on it? I get the impression you caught me red-handed...if so, with what?

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 15):
Besides, go back and reas what you wrote. And then identify where you said anything about sending your mother on holiday.

What is with you? You are the accuser, why should I prove anything? Besides, your interpretation is yours and not mine, it will apply to me; I'll never see what you see, so to speak. I get the impression that you got the idea that what I said in reply 11 was exactly what you claim I meant (I suppose) way back when, like it matters. I don't care, why do you? 

[Edited 2005-12-20 08:39:57]
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
Nimish
Posts: 2891
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:46 pm

RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:40 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 41):
Huh??????? No-one I know calls it Bengaluru

Not doubting that, as it's possible you may not know many kannadigas. It's the locals (Kannadigas) who call the city bengaluru (in fact train tickets have always printed the name as bengaluru in the Hindi version of the name).

I don't support the name change, since Bangalore is a huge world-wide brand, and there's no sense in changing it at this stage. I'm just stating that the name change is to return the city name to what the Kannadigas call the city (kind of like Kolkata vs. Calcutta).
Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
 
COSPN
Posts: 1535
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:09 pm

CO offers 1 Stop California EWR-DEL
 
jasepl
Posts: 3499
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:59 pm

Quoting Spink (Reply 31):
From what I know, Singapore, Lufthansa, and Thai, were almost always full into and out of Bangalore, I don't know what it is like right now with the addition of BA, AF, and anyone else I forgot.

I'm not contesting that. Of course SQ, TG, BA, AF etc have the potential to do more business our of Bangalore than AI. That's simply because the foreign airlines can get passengers to fare more destinations with one connection than AI ever could, even if they manage to turn BOM into an efficient hub.
However, it will be interesting to know how many passengers on say a BLR-FRA or BLR-BKK flight actually end their journeys in Frankfurt. I doubt the number will be significant.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 34):
People don't realy care for Air India

That is completely not true. AI do good business on all of their westbound long-haul flights. And I myself know many, many people who swear by Air India, at least if they're travelling point-to-point.

Wherever did you get that idea from?
 
cricket
Posts: 2074
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:10 pm

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 45):
However, it will be interesting to know how many passengers on say a BLR-FRA or BLR-BKK flight actually end their journeys in Frankfurt. I doubt the number will be significant.

PeePee when he was populating the media with stories (via IC, AI and the MoCA) before the ASA talks with the UAE and Singapore 'leaked' some manifests to the media which showed that for a week in late 2004 SQ flights out of DEL and BOM only had 13% of their travellers as O&D traffic. The number for EK (out of these two cities only) was a bit better at 22% (If I remember correctly).
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
jasepl
Posts: 3499
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm

RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:20 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 46):
...a week in late 2004 SQ flights out of DEL and BOM only had 13% of their travellers as O&D traffic. The number for EK (out of these two cities only) was a bit better at 22% (If I remember correctly).

Exactly! If Bombay and Dilly O&D numbers to places like Singapore are so low, then surely Bangalore will be even lower.
And that's exactly the market many of the foreign airlines are targeting. If you arrive in Dilly on a flight from Tashkent, for example, chances are you're a whore or a shady 'businessman' of some kind! If not, then you've probably connected from elsewhere.

The Middle Eastern carriers target those who want to travel to Europe. The European ones target those who want to travel to other places in Europe and on to the Americas, etc etc.
 
jasepl
Posts: 3499
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm

RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:25 pm

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 42):

Oh don't stop! This is too entertaining!

Allow me to quote:
"Recently [my mother] gave me the "you'll never be white" lecture..."
(Guess what? She's right. No matter how many times you wash your face.)

"I donno what to say, cept wait til I get to get away from her."

"My mom trys real hard and my dad doesn't act in my life, they split and I don't care."


PS: Try posting in English. It helps others understand.  Smile
 
cricket
Posts: 2074
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RE: Flights From California To India?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:05 pm

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 47):
he Middle Eastern carriers target those who want to travel to Europe. The European ones target those who want to travel to other places in Europe and on to the Americas, etc etc.

Some European ones - there is significant O&D traffic between UK and India, but carriers like KL, LH, AZ and AF make a killing on through traffic. That said, reason that BA is adding extra flights to BOM and DEL is to take advantage of the through traffic to the US.
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,