mrcomet
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Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:09 pm

This is not intended to bash the A350 but to ponder a serious business question based on a hypothetical situation. If EK were to go 787 and QR were not to firm up orders or even go Boeing and given the tough losses it has had, the A350 would become a hard plane to sell. They'd have 49 firm and 50 or so smaller carriers but no flagship name. Is tinkering with the design their only option or has an OEM ever done a complete redesign after selling a lot of planes? What are their options?

Mind you, I don't think this will happen and I suspect the committments will firm up and they will definitely build. Losing QR would be catastrophic and I am sure Boeing is working hard to do just that.
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CRJ900
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:19 pm

I assume Airbus will be improving and fine-tuning the A350 until it enters commercial service and then fine-tune even more to work out the final bugs and hiccups... as is usual with all new aircraft.

I'm sure even Boeing will have a few snags and bugs and things with their 787 leading to an aircraft or two being delayed into service.
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manni
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:40 pm

Quoting MrComet (Thread starter):
They'd have 49 firm and 50 or so smaller carriers but no flagship name


Mr. Comet,

You might want to check your figures first, before coming to the conclusion that lead to this rather 'funny' question.

Airbus has 164 firm Commitments, of wich 49 have been firmed up to orders. Customers include TAP, TAM, Finnair and Qatar aswell as the worlds leading aircraft lessor ILFC.


Quoting MrComet (Thread starter):
This is not intended to bash the A350 but to ponder a serious business question based on a hypothetical situation. If EK were to go 787 and QR were not to firm up orders or even go Boeing and given the tough losses it has had, the A350 would become a hard plane to sell

To date, little over 500 aircraft have been sold to the worlds airlines of both the A350 and 787. The market is estimated at 2000 to 3000 frames in the next
2 decades, even without EK onboard, that leaves plenty of potential. 12 companys, so far have chosen the A350 above the 787. You can bet your bank account that these people made their homework good. In the very unlikely event that the current ratio 1/2 Airbus vs Boeing continues (merely due to earlier offering and delivery of the 787), a 33% market share would represent 700 to 1000 airframes.

No, Airbus will not send the A350 back to the drawingboard.

Airbus lost the battle at QF, Boeing won, altough the question remains at what cost. The topics mushrooming at the forum about a possible demise of the A380, A350, A330/340 (still waiting for someone to link the A320 to the QF order) are funny at best, ignorant at worst. Airbus would have given away their planes to QF for free if the future of the A350 and all their other aircraft familys depended on it. Seriously!  Yeah sure
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:44 pm

Quoting MrComet (Thread starter):
They'd have 49 firm



Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
of wich 49 have been firmed up to orders

What were you correcting?
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cfalk
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:46 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
Airbus has 164 firm Commitments, of wich 49 have been firmed up to orders.

LOL! Right. Airbus has sold 49 planes. Options may or may not happen. That's why you can't count them as anything.
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manni
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:48 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 3):
What were you correcting?



Quoting MrComet (Thread starter):
50 or so smaller carriers but no flagship name.



Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
Airbus has 164 firm Commitments,



Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
Customers include TAP, TAM, Finnair and Qatar aswell as the worlds leading aircraft lessor ILFC.
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manni
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:51 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
Options may or may not happen.

LOL, Options  Yeah sure
How about commitments?
So what was Qantas order yesterday? 115 options of wich 45 options, 20 of these other options and 50 of that other sort of options?
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:28 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 6):
LOL, Options
How about commitments?
So what was Qantas order yesterday? 115 options of wich 45 options, 20 of these other options and 50 of that other sort of options?

I don't know what you have been reading but, 45 firm, 70 options. Not 115 options.

You only count firm orders...
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NAV20
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:31 pm

The Qantas deal was unusual in that Geoff Dixon spelled out in detail the factors that caused Qantas to select the 787:-

"The Boeing 787 is ideal for operating to Asia, as well the USA and Europe, and with 300 seats, will enable both Qantas and Jetstar to closely target markets without compromising efficiency," he said.

"Its new technology engines, cutting-edge airframe and increased seat count also offer a significant reduction in costs per ASK compared to the current Boeing 767."

"Mr Dixon said Qantas' current order was a mix of B787-8 and later model B787-9 aircraft.

"When the B787-9 model is ready for service in 2011, it will represent an even greater engineering breakthrough, flying further than the B787-8 but with capacity for 50 additional passengers," he said.

"Mr Dixon said the B787's lighter fuselage, which was constructed from composite material, allowed the aircraft to:

* fly further with a full payload;
* burn less fuel;
* fly faster than any other aircraft of its size; and
* reduce maintenance costs.

"The composite fuselage also allows increased window size and a lower cabin altitude pressure that reduces the effects of jetlag."

"Mr Dixon said the Boeing 787 had been developed out of the Boeing investment in its Sonic Cruiser project, which had resulted in the development of groundbreaking technology like the use of composite materials that could be suitably manufactured for commercial aircraft.

"The B787 has a 'double bubble' design that increases width at shoulder height to ensure the most spacious cabin feel for customers as well as providing more freight capacity.

"In addition to the 787-8 and 787-9 models, Boeing is studying an extension of the 787 family. Boeing is also continuing to look for ways of enhancing further the B787's range performance."


http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn.../details?ArticleID=2005/dec05/3369

Clearly, Qantas made a comprehensive step-by-step technical/marketing comparison of the 787 and the A350. And the 787 came out on top by every criterion.

The A350 will not go as far or as fast. It will burn more fuel. It will weigh more. It will carry less freight. It will cost more to maintain. It will offer passengers less space, smaller windows, and less attractive surroundings, and they will suffer from more jetlag. And it will offer far less scope for future development, particularly in the area of increased range.

In a word, the A350 is uncompetitive.

In my view Airbus would be mad to commit $5B. to develop it. A 'clean sheet' design, incorporating new technology to match that of Boeing, is their only option.

[Edited 2005-12-15 09:37:43]
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:37 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
In my view Airbus would be mad to commit $5B. to develop it. A 'clean sheet' design, incorporating new technology to match that of Boeing, is their only option.

Too bad they tied up 15bil in the A380 which they won't see returns on for a looong time imo.

The planes they have sold were mostly at a 40% discount and now they will have to wait till the A380 get into service and proves itself to sell at sticker. But I guess it doesn't matter how long you tie up large sums of money in a project as long as a country is willing to finance.
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Toulouse
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:38 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):


Manni, I for one found your post number 2 to be very well argued and 'intelligent'. Well done!

[quote=NAV20,reply=8]The A350 will not go as far or as fast. It will burn more fuel. It will weigh more. It will offer passengers less space, smaller windows, and less attractive surroundings, and they will suffer from more jetlag. And it will offer far less scope for future development, particularly in the area of increased range.

In a word, the A350 is uncompetitive.

Great, hope the airlines are listening to NAV20... he knows best!

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
smaller windows

AHHHHH, OH NO, smaller windows!!!!!!!!!!
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garpd
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:39 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 6):
LOL, Options
How about commitments?
So what was Qantas order yesterday? 115 options of wich 45 options, 20 of these other options and 50 of that other sort of options?

Your argument is laughable at best. Nothing but wishfull thinking on the Qantas order.

Commitments are not orders. Simply put, it's nothing but a bit of paper that says "Airline Y intends to by X ammount of aircraft. Pending"

Boeing have stated they've received comittments for well over 700 787s. Yet these are not mentioned in any order books. Why?
Because they are not orders. A commitment can be anything from the piece of paper I mention above to a purchase of delivery slots. Its a very imprecise term.

Swing it how you like, but this is the cold truth.
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mrcomet
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:45 pm

Manni....You are missing my point entirely. I asked you to accept the premise for arguments sake. If QR and EK heaped 150 orders on Boeing Airbus would be stuck in a difficult financial situation. Do you redesign from scratch which I think a lot of Airbus supporters would advocate or do you build something you know is losing most of the battles and hope that as you finalize you suddenly get increased performance. Can you redesign from scratch with so many orders? Are they already committed to this thing as is? Do you renegotiate and risk losing existing orders?

[Edited 2005-12-15 09:47:11]
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:48 pm

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 10):
Great, hope the airlines are listening to NAV20...

More a case of me listening to them, Toulouse. All I did was summarise what Dixon said.

In any case, so far (not counting Qantas), the airlines have lodged 253 'firm orders' for the 787; against 49 for the A350.
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:49 pm

People on this forum won't be able to get over the:

"If QR and EK ordered 150 787 instead of A350's."
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:51 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
Airbus has 164 firm Commitments



Quoting GARPD (Reply 11):
Boeing have stated they've received commitments for well over 700 787s.

Manni if you want to talk commitments because you got kinda hung up on them...
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n1786b
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:52 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
Airbus has 164 firm Commitments, of wich 49 have been firmed up to orders.



Quoting GARPD (Reply 11):
Commitments are not orders. Simply put, it's nothing but a bit of paper that says "Airline Y intends to by X ammount of aircraft. Pending"



Quoting GARPD (Reply 11):
Swing it how you like, but this is the cold truth.

And look who is "swinging it" here


"We have 164 firm orders for the A350 so far and we will increase this significantly again by year-end," Thomas Enders said late on Tuesday in comments embargoed for Wednesday."

So what is the TRUTH? - Airbus lists 49 FIRM A350 orders yet we keep hearing this....Do you really think they were able to firm up 115 "commitments" in 15 days?

I wouldn't have a problem with his statement if he had added "and committments"

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manni
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:56 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 7):
I don't know what you have been reading but, 45 firm, 70 options. Not 115 options.



Quoting GARPD (Reply 11):
Your argument is laughable at best.


You're both obviously missing the point I was making. Cfalk, called Airbus' orders for the A350, 49 firm orders and the rest options. I disagree, they're firm commitments not options. In order to illustrate this I used Qantas order to point out how ridiculous it is to clasify commitments under the same label as options.

Quoting GARPD (Reply 11):

Boeing have stated they've received comittments for well over 700 787s.

If these commitments were anywhere near as secure as those of Qantas yesterday, or those of Finnair last week, on the Airbus side, you can be sure, that we would have read about them by now, including the names of those who ordered. Unless we have a unidentified order for 350 frames.  Yeah sure
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manni
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:01 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 15):
Boeing have stated they've received commitments for well over 700 787s.

Manni if you want to talk commitments because you got kinda hung up on them...

OK, let's talk commitments. I'll name those 164 of Airbus, if you can name those 700 for Boeing first...  Yeah sure

Quoting MrComet (Reply 12):
Manni....You are missing my point entirely. I asked you to accept the premise for arguments sake



There's to many if's in your argument.
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:09 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 18):
OK, let's talk commitments. I'll name those 164 of Airbus, if you can name those 700 for Boeing first...

And we both know I can't. Why we shouldn't use commitments as a gage. I'm expecting to see some firm orders come from Airbus over the next few days as promised. I don't think the A350 will be a bad product at all, its just inferior to the 787 in many cases. But it has a lower development cost meaning they will be able to sell a good amount at a cheaper price then the 787 and it will be a successful plane for Airbus. But I think current orders and the obvious fact is, the 787 had more time and money put into it which will pay off in the long run. The 787 is going to be a superior product.
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n1786b
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:19 pm

Well, back on subject....

This weeks FI has the following:

"The next key point in the A350’s development is what Airbus calls “Milestone 5” in the first quarter of 2006, which is the design freeze."

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...oost+Airbus+A350+cruise+speed.html

Redesigning the A350 won't happen - tweaking will.

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AJRfromSYR
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:28 pm

A design freeze is far from permanent though.
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manni
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:29 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 19):
And we both know I can't.

Indeed, therefore you shouldn't compare the 700 of Boeing with the 164 of Airbus.

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 19):
The 787 is going to be a superior product.

Superior, for some airlines, inferior to others. Why on earth would an airline order the A350 if it is inferior to the 787 and has a higher listprice?

The 787 might, at the moment, fit in better for a larger group of airlines than the A350. But those who ordered the A350 obviously found the A350 to be the better fit.
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:32 pm

True, but each airline has certain operating conditions, I mean't in general.
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manni
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:46 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 23):
True, but each airline has certain operating conditions, I mean't in general.

As you said, each airline has their certain operation conditions. Therefore you can't generalise. The only conclusion you might draw is that, at the moment the majority of airlines who have placed orders for either the A350 or the 787 found the 787 to be the better fit. The minority, the A350, but they'll certainly not buy it if they tought it's inferior.
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Toulouse
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:52 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 13):
More a case of me listening to them, Toulouse. All I did was summarise what Dixon said.

In any case, so far (not counting Qantas), the airlines have lodged 253 'firm orders' for the 787; against 49 for the A350.

NAV20, point taken, BUT, you summarised what Dixon said about 1 airline, and not airlines in plural.

Ok, 253 firm orders for the 787 (congratulations to Boeing and I'm delighted at this and hope and know their order book will keep increasing) against 49 for the A350. Is there any need to remind you that Airbus was only authorsied to 'officially' market the 350 about two months ago, and the 787 quite a while back. Any need to remind you of the first orders for the 787, who was it Blue Panorama and some other charter company. Things can start slowly, the 787 is proof of this. While I do favour Airbus, I sincerely hope both Boeing and Airbus will be successful with their newest endeavours, as this will benefit the airlines and us as the flying public.
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:52 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 24):
As you said, each airline has their certain operation conditions. Therefore you can't generalise. The only conclusion you might draw is that, at the moment the majority of airlines who have placed orders for either the A350 or the 787 found the 787 to be the better fit. The minority, the A350, but they'll certainly not buy it if they tought it's inferior.

If I never saw firm order numbers I'd still say the 787 is the better plane in general, and confused how you can contest this. The A350 was a catch-up plane so the 787 doesn't steal the show. There has just been more time and money dumped into the 787.
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keesje
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:52 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
The Qantas deal was unusual in that Geoff Dixon spelled out in detail the factors that caused Qantas to select the 787:-

"The Boeing 787 is ideal for operating to Asia, as well the USA and Europe, and with 300 seats, will enable both Qantas and Jetstar to closely target markets without compromising efficiency," he said.

"Its new technology engines, cutting-edge airframe and increased seat count also offer a significant reduction in costs per ASK compared to the current Boeing 767."

"Mr Dixon said Qantas' current order was a mix of B787-8 and later model B787-9 aircraft.

"When the B787-9 model is ready for service in 2011, it will represent an even greater engineering breakthrough, flying further than the B787-8 but with capacity for 50 additional passengers," he said.

"Mr Dixon said the B787's lighter fuselage, which was constructed from composite material, allowed the aircraft to:

* fly further with a full payload;
* burn less fuel;
* fly faster than any other aircraft of its size; and
* reduce maintenance costs.

"The composite fuselage also allows increased window size and a lower cabin altitude pressure that reduces the effects of jetlag."

"Mr Dixon said the Boeing 787 had been developed out of the Boeing investment in its Sonic Cruiser project, which had resulted in the development of groundbreaking technology like the use of composite materials that could be suitably manufactured for commercial aircraft.

"The B787 has a 'double bubble' design that increases width at shoulder height to ensure the most spacious cabin feel for customers as well as providing more freight capacity.

"In addition to the 787-8 and 787-9 models, Boeing is studying an extension of the 787 family. Boeing is also continuing to look for ways of enhancing further the B787's range performance."



Ah we forget the biggest one again. Let me help:


Dixon said there were several factors that persuaded the Qantas board to go with the 787 instead of the A350 offered by Airbus. One was price, he said. Qantas received a very good deal from Boeing, he said. "We believe our people negotiated an extremely competitive price," Dixon said.


Boeing wanted this deal very, very badly. Airbus obviously withdrew at some point.
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:00 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
Dixon said there were several factors that persuaded the Qantas board to go with the 787 instead of the A350 offered by Airbus. One was price, he said. Qantas received a very good deal from Boeing, he said. "We believe our people negotiated an extremely competitive price," Dixon said.

Boeing wanted this deal very, very badly. Airbus obviously withdrew at some point.

'There was nothing in the price between the two manufacturers,'' Qantas Chief Financial Officer Peter Gregg said in an interview today.
Source: Bloomberg News Interview.
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manni
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:03 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 26):
and confused how you can contest this

164 commitments stands for roughly 25 billion dollars, and would buy 200 787's instead. Again, who on earth would fork out that kind of money to a plane that's inferior to its competitor. I'm confused how you can't figure what I'm pointing out.
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:06 pm

You keep talking commitments, lets leave it at firm orders. 49. And for those Airlines they felt the A350 was better, bound to happen. If you have two products competing in any industry, no matter how much better the other product is, it will never be a sweep.
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:09 pm

Not to mention fleet commonality, price, etc
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manni
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:14 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 30):
You keep talking commitments, lets leave it at firm orders.



Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 15):
Manni if you want to talk commitments because you got kinda hung up on them...

Make up your mind.

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 30):
If you have two products competing in any industry, no matter how much better the other product is, it will never be a sweep.



It will be a sweep when so much money is involved... 767-400 vs A330 comes to mind.
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garpd
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:26 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 29):
164 commitments stands for roughly 25 billion dollars, and would buy 200 787's instead. Again, who on earth would fork out that kind of money to a plane that's inferior to its competitor. I'm confused how you can't figure what I'm pointing out.

Because airbus can sell ice to eskimos!  Wink
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:34 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 32):
It will be a sweep when so much money is involved... 767-400 vs A330 comes to mind.

That's funny because I was under the impression that CO and DL wanted a DC10/MD11 replacement and asked Boeing. I'm also pretty sure that they sold 38 of them. I hope you were not giving an example of a sweep.

The A350 is not built for a niche market like the 764ER.
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Ruscoe
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:48 pm

Problem now for the 350 is that it is hard to envisage a lot more development.

It is already playing catch up with the current 787 and it is at the start of it's design life. Qantas have already extracted an extra 40,000lb tow for the 9 and a 10 is to come.
The 787 is like the 777 was at the beginning of its life, lots of potential.

The 350 unfortunately does not have a great deal left without major design chnges relating to undercarriage, engines, systems etc, and then we still have an old fuselage design.

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manni
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:58 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 34):
The A350 is not built for a niche market like the 764ER.



The 767-400 got sweeped by the A330. It ended up being built for DL and CO, but the cancellation of the KQ order, the 767-400 worldtour (no need to do this if you intend to sell just to ATL and HOU) and for example the debacle at QF, shows that the expectations were much higher.
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leelaw
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:58 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 28):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
Dixon said there were several factors that persuaded the Qantas board to go with the 787 instead of the A350 offered by Airbus. One was price, he said. Qantas received a very good deal from Boeing, he said. "We believe our people negotiated an extremely competitive price," Dixon said.

Boeing wanted this deal very, very badly. Airbus obviously withdrew at some point.

'There was nothing in the price between the two manufacturers,'' Qantas Chief Financial Officer Peter Gregg said in an interview today.
Source: Bloomberg News Interview.

Keesje, Dixon also made this remark:

"The best wine came from the Airbus side," Dixon joked, "Unfortunately, (the Airbus offering) never made the grade."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...nology/2002682245_webboeing13.html

IMO, given what Peter Gregg has said, Dixon wasn't talking about the unit price, rather technical merit.
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:05 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 36):
The 767-400 got sweeped by the A330. It ended up being built for DL and CO, but the cancellation of the KQ order, the 767-400 worldtour (no need to do this if you intend to sell just to ATL and HOU) and for example the debacle at QF, shows that the expectations were much higher.

How could it have been swept if they are in service for DL and CO, I'm confused. But this proves the point. The A330 was a better plane, and only CO/DL felt the 764 fit their situation better then the A330. Just because to airlines bought the plane doesn't mean it wasn't an inferior product to something else. Again DL/CO operating conditions warranted a 764, you can not sweep... Why can't you sweep you may ask? Boeing nor Airbus will shell out money and build the aircraft before they know they will get customers. Airbus would not have gone forward with the A350 if they didn't have a launch customer.


Just because the plane may work for some airlines, like the 764, doesn't make it better then another plane, like the A330, in general.
-AJR-
 
manni
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:19 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 38):
Just because the plane may work for some airlines, like the 764, doesn't make it better then another plane, like the A330, in general.


 idea 

Very well, finally... Now add 787 and A350 where A330 and 764 are written.
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Toulouse
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:22 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 26):
If I never saw firm order numbers I'd still say the 787 is the better plane in general, and confused how you can contest this. The A350 was a catch-up plane so the 787 doesn't steal the show. There has just been more time and money dumped into the 787.

Are you employed by both Airbus and Boeing? If not, how can you make such an assumption that the 787 is a better plane in general to the 350?! Neither plane is flying yet, so why don't we just wait to see how they both measure up when they go into service. Regarding the 350 being a catch-up plane, well to a certain extent I can agree with you, but do you really think Airbus designed the 350 over night when they saw the 787 was selling well? That would be very naïve. You know, here at Airbus, just as I'm sure is the case in Boeing and most industries, many people are employed to constanty research new products for the future, to respond to the competition, etc.
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:24 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 39):
Very well, finally... Now add 787 and A350 where A330 and 764 are written.

Well maybe we were agreeing the whole time.

A330 is a better plane, but not exclusively.

I believe the 787 is a better plane, but not exclusively.

We still agreeing?
-AJR-
 
manni
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:30 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 41):
We still agreeing?


Not exclusively? I take it as being better for some but not all. Yes, agreed.
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Lumberton
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:33 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):

Boeing wanted this deal very, very badly. Airbus obviously withdrew at some point.

I suspect that "point" occurred when they got the phone call 5 minutes before the public announcement that QF selected Boeing.  Yeah sure Don't kid yourself, Airbus would have done anything to win this deal; they just couldn't get there.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
AJRfromSYR
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:41 pm

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 40):
Are you employed by both Airbus and Boeing? If not, how can you make such an assumption that the 787 is a better plane in general to the 350?! Neither plane is flying yet, so why don't we just wait to see how they both measure up when they go into service. Regarding the 350 being a catch-up plane, well to a certain extent I can agree with you, but do you really think Airbus designed the 350 over night when they saw the 787 was selling well? That would be very naïve. You know, here at Airbus, just as I'm sure is the case in Boeing and most industries, many people are employed to constantly research new products for the future, to respond to the competition, etc.

We will have to wait and see, but my statements were regarding the propaganda coming from both camps. And don't think I believe the A350 was conceived over night, that would be naive. I simple know that more time had been put into the 787 and consequently more money = a better product in most cases.

Again I don't think the A350 will be a bad plane, nor will it be as big of a dog as the 764. But it does not have the detail that the 787 does, the reason is simple. Most of the energy for airbus was spent on the A380.

Boeing put 150% into the 787 project and about 50% into the 748. And vice versa for Airbus and their current projects. Both companies have their trump cards.
-AJR-
 
abba
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:51 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
Clearly, Qantas made a comprehensive step-by-step technical/marketing comparison of the 787 and the A350. And the 787 came out on top by every criterion.

Oh come one. I think what you wrote is a prime example of wishful reading at best. From what you quote, QF is not comparing the 787 to the 350 but the 787 to the 767. Read again what you quoted (and this time careful for a change):

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
Its new technology engines, cutting-edge airframe and increased seat count also offer a significant reduction in costs per ASK compared to the current Boeing 767

Later it also becomes clear that this is what Dixson is talking about. Remember (if you can) that the 350 is to have about the same level of pressure as the 787 and the following makes sense only relative to the 767:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
"The composite fuselage also allows [zip] a lower cabin altitude pressure that reduces the effects of jetlag."

Now you have been reading things not written and before been seeing things that are not there. What will be next?

Abba
 
AJRfromSYR
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:58 pm

Quoting Abba (Reply 45):
Remember (if you can) that the 350 is to have about the same level of pressure as the 787

I didn't hear about this, so I checked the Airbus site with no joy. Got something for me to read?

While reading the Airbus info on the A350 it says "passengers will be able to use their cell phones" - Interesting thing to state seeing how Airbus isn't in charge of that rule.
-AJR-
 
zvezda
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:00 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 17):
I disagree, they're firm commitments not options.

Anything short of a signed order (e.g. LOI, MOU) is not a firm commitment. It is barely a commitment at all. Options are not any sort of commitment on the part of the option buyer, not firm commitments, not squishy commitments, not even fluid commitments. Options commit only the seller of the option.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:14 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
Dixon said there were several factors that persuaded the Qantas board to go with the 787 instead of the A350 offered by Airbus. One was price, he said. Qantas received a very good deal from Boeing, he said. "We believe our people negotiated an extremely competitive price," Dixon said.

Boeing wanted this deal very, very badly. Airbus obviously withdrew at some point.

Boeing & Airbus both wanted the deal very badly, both were involved with the deal to the very end. It was due to Airbus's counteroffer that caused Qantas to delay ordering any aircraft, Airbus did not withdraw, Qantas simply did not choose Airbus...
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Toulouse
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RE: Can Airbus Send The A350 Back To Redesign?

Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:15 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 44):
We will have to wait and see, but my statements were regarding the propaganda coming from both camps. And don't think I believe the A350 was conceived over night, that would be naive. I simple know that more time had been put into the 787 and consequently more money = a better product in most cases.

Again I don't think the A350 will be a bad plane, nor will it be as big of a dog as the 764. But it does not have the detail that the 787 does, the reason is simple. Most of the energy for airbus was spent on the A380.

Boeing put 150% into the 787 project and about 50% into the 748. And vice versa for Airbus and their current projects. Both companies have their trump cards.

Glad to hear you don't think the 350 will be a bad plane... I'm sure the engineers here at Airbus a sighing a sigh of relief now! But being serious, just keep in mind these are YOUR opinions, which you of course have a right to! As you said yourself, we'll just have to wait and see. Personnally I'm confident in both Boeing and Airbus.

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 46):
I didn't hear about this, so I checked the Airbus site with no joy. Got something for me to read?

While reading the Airbus info on the A350 it says "passengers will be able to use their cell phones" - Interesting thing to state seeing how Airbus isn't in charge of that rule.

Here are a few things taken from Airbus.com, just look around. Nothing clear though about the cabin pressure, they just say it'll be more comfortable, even though I do remember reading somewhere recently (??) that the cabin pressure in the new 350 would match or be better than the 787, might look around for that. Regarding the mobiles, another quote from airbus.com, as it was much talked about a few months back that Airbus were working on enabling pax to be able to use their mobiles in flight.

And the first quote especially for NAV20... the windows will be larger on the 350... don't know how they compare to the 787's, but knew you'd like to know this!!

"the windows are larger, helping to create a light, airy feel to the cabin which will go towards making even the longest flights more relaxing."

"Advanced lighting will provide an almost infinite variety of colours and subtle shades to perfectly match the mood to the time of day or night."



Airbus also provides the latest in in-flight connectivity for passengers, including text-messaging from seat screens, e-mail from personal laptops and WiFi connection. Other connection facilities expected to be available soon are web browsing and live television. In the near future Airbus plans to make it possible for passengers to use mobile phones during flight.

Software available to help operators include AIRMAN, a unique diagnosis tool designed to optimise fleet maintenance, improve dispatch reliability and reduce turnaround times by providing live data checks between in-flight aircraft and ground support teams. Another is AirN@v, a seamless one-stop consultation tool for Airbus technical data, incorporating all the main technical manuals.

More detailed information is available on Airbus World customer services portal.
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