CV990
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Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:30 pm

Hi!

I almost could talk about an interesting case study for both the DC-10 and MD11 and their roles has freighters. I'm sure that when McDonnell Douglas projected these two models they had MOSTLY the airliner has a great passenger carrier, but them what we see it's almost a "2nd. life" for these two airplanes.... the freighter role! But why is that???? Why for example Airbus never seriously got involved in the cargo market ( well of course we have the A300 and the A310 but... ) and Boeing only have the 747-400F and starting now with the 777F ( in the past they offered the 707C, 727QC and 727F, the 737-200C but after that?!?!?!?!... )?
I think both the DC-10 and the MD11 great airplanes and having flown both I consider them great airliners, but I seriously would like to understand more about this unique feature of beeing ( by many enthusiasts and also by airline responsibles ) the best freighters in their class!
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
dl021
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:35 pm

The MD-11F is well received because of it's strength, power, and availability (at least at first). It was significantly less expensive than a new build 744F or later the 772F and fit a niche for capability that several operators saw as useful.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
CV990
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:44 pm

Hi!

But my feeling is that the MD11's with cargo door wasn't that popular! AZ was one of them, but were there any other clients with that option??? Otherwise it might me quite expensive to convert an MD11 into freighter no?
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
vsflyer747400
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:52 pm

Quoting CV990 (Thread starter):
and Boeing only have the 747-400F and starting now with the 777F ( in the past they offered the 707C, 727QC and 727F, the 737-200C but after that?!?!?!?!... )?

What about the 767 freighters operated by UPS? Weren't they new builds and not converted?
Being on: (in no order) VS BA AA EK CX MH DL EI BD KL HV NW RC LH AF DA TG QF US FR LX AC SK AZ PG SQ UA PA
 
CV990
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:55 pm

Hi!

Yes, 767 and also 757's too!!!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
Andreas
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:57 pm

On the contrary!! There are dozens of cheap aircraft on the market, that are fairly new, too, the statement to discontinue MD-11 didn't exactly help to make these aircraft more marketable.

LH got a brilliant deal, extremely low prices and the conversion thrown in for good measure on the first 9 or 10 aircraft, in the meantime they've doubled the number by buying whatever new MD-11 they could get their hands on. And yes, quite nice performance they have, too. LH was already giving the 747F away, too large, and not very economical, and in came the MD-11F.

Let's face it...DC-10 AND MD-11 are not very popular, never really were but as usual that doesn't mean it's a shitty aircraft....  Wink
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
JRadier
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:33 am

Quoting CV990 (Reply 2):
But my feeling is that the MD11's with cargo door wasn't that popular! AZ was one of them, but were there any other clients with that option???

AZ had one F (I-DUPA) and 4 Combi's (MD-11C, with a freight door behind the wing, regs I-DUPE/I/O/U) wich are going to be or are allready converted to freighters.

MP has 3 full freighers (PH-MCU/W/Y) with a cargo door front of the wing, and 4 MD-11CF's (PH-MCP/R/S/T) wich also have a cargo door in front of the wing, but can take either pax or freight (unlike the combi's, wich carry both). A couple are full time freighters now, don't know if they all are.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
cedarjet
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:34 am

Andreas, I disagree, the MD11 is a shitty aircraft - underperformed initially, no commonality with anything else, and a safety record that would make the 707 and DC8 look good. How a third generation plane can crash this often is very surprising. The DC10 was known for it's entire life as a dangerous aircraft (not without some justification), but the MD11's record is worse.

I for one, while fond of it's looks, am very glad my days of flying on the MD11 (aka the "scud" - you never know where it'll come down) are over.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
gigneil
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:38 am

The very first MD11 delivered was an MD11F. At that point, MD knew what was going on...

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 7):
The DC10 was known for it's entire life as a dangerous aircraft (not without some justification), but the MD11's record is worse.

Come on now. I don't think anybody would agree that the D10 was known as a dangerous aircraft, although it certainly had some high profile incidents.

The M11's safety is related to aggressive changes by McD that just did not play out.

N
 
eilennaei
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:16 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 8):
he M11's safety is related to aggressive changes by McD that just did not play out.

You might want to visit www.aviation-safety.net and peruse the relevant accident reports and the conclusions one by one. If you have already done so, I'd like to know what incident(s) you were referring to.
 
474218
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:05 am

DC-10's and MD-11's make good cargo aircraft because they are cheap to buy, there systems are not very sophisticated, and they can carry a heavy load over a long distance.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:22 am

Quoting Andreas (Reply 5):
LH was already giving the 747F away, too large, and not very economical, and in came the MD-11F.

The 742F flew in Lufthansa Cargo's fleet for quite a long time and stayed with them for several years in tandem with the MD-11F. In fact, even after the sale of the aircraft to Air Atlanta, LH immediately leased them back. They actually think both the 742F and 744F are too SMALL and have wanted a 748F sized aircraft for years
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
cfalk
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:43 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 7):
The DC10 was known for it's entire life as a dangerous aircraft (not without some justification), but the MD11's record is worse.

I can't let that go by. The DC-10 was an excellent aircraft. It's reputation was sullied by two accidents, Turkish Airlines over Paris and AA in Chicago. Both were highly publicized structural failures, but the cause of those failures in both cases were the result of the operator.

The Turkish accident was caused by a door latch that had been identified as a potential problem early in the life of the DC-10, and Douglas issued mandatory instructions and kits for its replacement, as well as a temporary workaround. The Turkish DC-10 had not been modified, and the workaround was not exercised.

The accident in Chicago was caused by American Airlines wanting to cut corners in maintainance, using a forklift to ram the engine assembly onto the wing, instead of the more careful procedure devised by Douglas, who warned them that the forklifts were a very bad idea. But AA and Continental continued to use the shortcut.

Since the practice was so widespread, after the accident, all DC-10s were grounded for inspection. All the public knew in the age of 30-second news bytes was that the DC-10 had been grounded, even though a properly maintained DC-10 would have been perfectly safe (at least as much as any other aircraft type). But the PR impact was such that not a single DC-10 was ordered after the Chicago accident.

DC-10 pilots I have spoken with love the plane, and say that it is the most stable and pleasant airliner they ever flew. The MD-11 was a different story - that was rather unstable.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
CactusA319
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:12 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 12):
The accident in Chicago was caused by American Airlines wanting to cut corners in maintainance, using a forklift to ram the engine assembly onto the wing, instead of the more careful procedure devised by Douglas, who warned them that the forklifts were a very bad idea. But AA and Continental continued to use the shortcut.

The Chicago crash was caused by inproper mx procedures by AA, but the pilots could have flown out of it had the aircraft's systems been configured differently. Design changes to the slat controls and stall warning system (stick shaker) were made AFTER the crash. Had this same incident happened on, say, an L-1011, the pilots might have been able to fly it through the engine loss and land safely due to the systems configuration on that aircraft.

Despite that the DC-10 is indeed a great aircraft. However it's never been able to shake the negative reputation caused by those accidents, even almost 30 years later. The MD-11 on the other hand.....
 
FI642
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:20 am

Stick shakers were an option on the F/O side, and AA opted not to get them. Had they gotten the option, that bird very may well not have crashed.
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
 
ual777
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:00 am

Quoting CactusA319 (Reply 13):
The Chicago crash was caused by inproper mx procedures by AA, but the pilots could have flown out of it had the aircraft's systems been configured differently. Design changes to the slat controls and stall warning system (stick shaker) were made AFTER the crash

That is not completely true. When the engine plyon separated, it tore the hydraulic lines from the left side of the aircraft. Thus the slats on the left wing retracted because the DC-10 does not have hyraulic lock-outs. The airplane can be flown in this "one-in-one-out" configuration above 172(?) knots. However, AA's manual stated on engine failure on take-off, the pilot is supposed continue the take-off and to climb and gain altitude. The pilots did this and mantained around 160 kts. Thus the left wing stalled due to its "clean" configuration causing the plane to roll over and crash a few miles away from O'hare. If the pilots had kept the nose down and gained airspeed, they would been able to control the aircraft and would have survived.

So it was more of a company procedural error both in mantainance and in emergency procedures.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:12 am

Copy/pasted and edited from a post I made earlier:

MD-11 has a higher CASM compared to other newer aircraft. However, cargo aircraft tend to be older, more so than the MD-11, but given that the latter went out of production, airlines are not inclined to operate the type anymore, which then drops it's resale/lease value, making it perfect for cargo ops.

That means you get a very cheap and still modern freighter. PAX make less money for airlines compared to cargo, so the higher CASM is not that big of an issue.

And don't forget cargo airlines tend to own their aircraft.

Cheers

[Edited 2005-12-16 20:14:11]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
CV990
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:35 am

Hi!

I have also an opinion related to both DC-10 and MD11. I think the DC-10 got a bad reputation with the AA accident. Until then, with the THY was a big accident but we didn't see a lot of comments on that and most airlines kept ordering and buying it! After the AA accident and then in a close chain, there was also the ANZ one and Western one too. So it was like suddenly the DC-10 was always at the front page of any newspaper. But like Cfalk said all those big accidents were very unfortunate and all of them didn't have nothing to do with any aerodymics or project defaults! I flew twice with the DC-10 ( ORD/DEN and DEN/SEA with UA ) and both flights were excelent and the plane was indeed very confortable.
Regarding the MD11, well we must say that the accident with HB-IWF played a bad role on the future of the aircraft but I've seen strong fleets of the aircraft still going on, I'm talking about KL and RG!
I also flew in a MD11 ( LX from ZRH/LAX ) and besides the fact that the flight was actually very confortable I was very impressed with the power of the airplane on take-off... I think the closest airplane compared to the MD11 would be the 777 but even them I think the MD11 was "power"!!!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
eilennaei
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:48 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 15):
So it was more of a company procedural error both in mantainance and in emergency procedures.

The pilot flying had no means of evidencing the accidental asymmetrical deployment (or actually retraction) of the wing leading edge devices because the damage also tore apart some electric lines rendering his instrument panel and stall warning systems inoperative. Therefore the emergency procedures were of no use in this case.
 
dc10heaven
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:04 am

The one great thing about living in Memphis is I get to see on a daily basis a dose of the largest fleet in the world of DC10, MD-11, A300, A310, & 727s, all with purple tails (except the 2 ex-UA DC10s that are still grey fuselage/blue tail/white nose).
 
ual777
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:34 am

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 18):
The pilot flying had no means of evidencing the accidental asymmetrical deployment (or actually retraction) of the wing leading edge devices because the damage also tore apart some electric lines rendering his instrument panel and stall warning systems inoperative. Therefore the emergency procedures were of no use in this case.

I believe they do. If AA procedures consisted of gaining a minimum airspeed rather than pitching for best climb, the accident could have been prevented.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
reins485
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:39 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 12):
The MD-11 was a different story - that was rather unstable.

What do you mean by unstable? My dad used to fly the MD-11 and he enjoyed flying the airplane. The one comment I remember him making was that at cruise, you could not hand fly the airplane and maintain a constant altitude. It would go up and down as the pilot tried to play catch up. But that was due to the tail mounted engine.
I have flown on the MD-11, while my dad flew the plane. It was a great flight.
But the reason I think is that a great freighter is that is was relatively cheap to buy second hand (I know AA wanted to get rid of the really bad when they were in the fleet). Also the fact that it has a decent amount of power so it can lift heavy loads.
Reins485
 
exFATboy
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:43 am

Here's a related question I've always wondered about - why are the DC-10/MD-11 popular for freighter conversions, but not the L-1011?

I could understand the MD-11 being more popular simply because you can pick up relatively late-model planes cheaply, but that doesn't explain the popularity of the older DC-10s.
 
ual777
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:46 am

Quoting Reins485 (Reply 21):
What do you mean by unstable? My dad used to fly the MD-11 and he enjoyed flying the airplane. The one comment I remember him making was that at cruise, you could not hand fly the airplane and maintain a constant altitude

Because McD could not meet the range requirements necessary, they reduced the size of the horizontal stabilizer by 30%. This made the MD-11 EXTREMELY pitch sensitive and, "unstable".
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
PennPal
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:49 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 12):
But the PR impact was such that not a single DC-10 was ordered after the Chicago accident.

Huh?? Not sure if I agree with that statement. The Chicago crash occurred in May 1979, and the last DC-10 was built/delivered in 1989, if I'm not mistaken. If your statement were true, then that means McDD had a ten year backlog of orders...  confused 
 
eilennaei
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:09 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 20):
I believe they do. If AA procedures consisted of gaining a minimum airspeed rather than pitching for best climb, the accident could have been prevented.

You will mean the engine-out procedures as the accident took place on rotation? I quote from Air Disasters, part 2 by Mcarthur Job, p 58:

"Because the airspeed schedules contained in the American Airlines' emergency procedures were identical to those of other airlines" ...

Again, it can't reasonably be expected of someone writing the operational standard to foresee this whole unique chain of events: an unrecognised uncommanded asymmetrical rectraction of LEDs at the most critical stage because of an engine falling off due to a fractured pylon that had been forklifted into place, AND to have known that in this case a little bit of extra speed MIGHT have saved the plane. With the wisdom of hindsight the knowledge is expanded, yes, but to blame the standards of then is an evident anachronism.
 
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fxramper
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:11 am

Dudes!

Don't forget the MD10!

DC10, MD10, and MD11, are my babies!

I'll be climbing around on the MD10 tonight.  Smile

Be jealous.
 
474218
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:13 am

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 18):
The pilot flying had no means of evidencing the accidental asymmetrical deployment (or actually retraction) of the wing leading edge devices because the damage also tore apart some electric lines rendering his instrument panel and stall warning systems inoperative. Therefore the emergency procedures were of no use in this case.

Some how Douglas convinced the FAA that the DC-10 did not require an asymmetry detection system for their flaps and slat and systems. If the AA DC-10 involved in the Chicago accident had an asymmetry detection system similar to the L-1011's, the DC-10's leading slats would not have retracted on the left wing and the accident may have been prevented. If I am not mistaken an asymmetry detection system was retrofitted to all DC-10's after the Chicago tragedy.

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 22):
Here's a related question I've always wondered about - why are the DC-10/MD-11 popular for freighter conversions, but not the L-1011?

L-1011 while about the same size as the DC-10 have a lower MGTOW than the DC-10. This limits their value a pure freighters.
 
Magyarorszag
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:23 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 12):
But the PR impact was such that not a single DC-10 was ordered after the Chicago accident.



Quoting PennPal (Reply 24):
Huh?? Not sure if I agree with that statement.

I for myself don't agree with the statement of Cfalk!

"At the end of March (1979), total sales stood at 330 firm plus conditional firm and options for 50 more; 273 DC-10s had been delivered." Terry Waddington in MDC DC-10 book.

In 1979 alone, after the AA crash, the following orders were placed or confirmed:

- CP for four Series 30 (June).
- CO one Series 30 (August 2nd).
- AM two Series 15 (Sept. 9th).
- MX formally signed for two Srs 15 (Sept. 26).
- JL added three more Srs 40 (October 10).
- SN ordered one Srs 30CF (Nov. 5th).
- MH added a third Srs 30 (Nov. 29th).

Greetings.

M.
 
eilennaei
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:40 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 27):
Some how Douglas convinced the FAA that the DC-10 did not require an asymmetry detection system for their flaps and slat and systems. If the AA DC-10 involved in the Chicago accident had an asymmetry detection system similar to the L-1011's, the DC-10's leading slats would not have retracted on the left wing and the accident may have been prevented. If I am not mistaken an asymmetry detection system was retrofitted to all DC-10's after the Chicago tragedy.

The above is untrue. The a/c did have such a system (naturally), but it was rendered inoperative because of the electric fault condition. The slat retracted because the hydraulic lines were burst and the slat was kept in its position with hydraulic pressure only.
 
474218
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:22 am

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 29):
The above is untrue. The a/c did have such a system (naturally), but it was rendered inoperative because of the electric fault condition. The slat retracted because the hydraulic lines were burst and the slat was kept in its position with hydraulic pressure only.

How can that be UNTRUE? If the loss of hydraulic pressure allowed the slats on only one wing to retract then there was no asymmetry dictation system present. If a asymmetric detection system had be present, the slats would have mechanically locked in place as soon as there was movement of one section of the slat system, without movement of any another section.
 
eilennaei
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:34 pm

474218:
Detection devices, by their very definition, do not take a part in the actual operation, they just signal the status. You might have mixed some facts. Recommend you reread the reports, which are available on-line.
cheers,
 
ltbewr
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:41 pm

Many airlines that ordered the DC-10/MD-11 (and to some extent the L-1011)series as pax aircraft realized they didn't need that large of an aircraft anymore, especially after the 767, 757's and A-300 series came out. These newer a/c had 2 instead of 3 engines, didn't have a difficult to work on tail engine, more fuel efficient and when ETOPS versions came out of those a/c, it wasn't necessary to have a 2nd type of very large a/c vs. the 747 or even have any 'jumbo's' anymore. The accidents of the 1970's and 1980's involving DC-10's didn't help with marketing to the pax market either.
The DC-10/MD-11 pax market was further compounded by the Airbus A340 series, updated versions of the 747, as well as need for many airlines to narrow the types of a/c in their fleets. As a result, they became kind of 'orphans', their resale prices dropped to levels that offset their higher fuel and mx costs that made them attractive to the freighter market. They also sold for less and were more efficient for many ops than used 747's. As some freight companies grew quickly in the 1980's and 90's and needed large, reasonably cheap to buy and op a/c, ones that could fly non-stop or 1 stop between Europe or North America and the economically growing Asia markets, the DC-10/MD-11 quickly entered their fleets. Pilots for them was no problem either from the airlines that disposed of them as well as from the military (KC-10 fuel tanker - a form of freighter a/c!)
Despite some design flaws, the DC-10/MD-11 was overall built very well and seems to be the jumbo jet version of an ancestor, the DC-3 (last made in the late 1940's and hunderds still in frequent use throughout the world). Long may they fly.
 
474218
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:24 am

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 31):
474218:
Detection devices, by their very definition, do not take a part in the actual operation, they just signal the status. You might have mixed some facts. Recommend you reread the reports, which are available on-line.
cheers,

The purpose of asymmetry detection devices is to prevent asymmetrical conditions, like what happen to the DC-10 in Chicago. They do that by detecting an asymmetrical difference in the system, then shut the system down and lock it before the asymmetrical condition get so far out of range that the pilot can not control it. If the DC-10 had been designed with an asymmetry detection system and the leading edge slats on the left wing would have locked in the extended instead of being allowed to fully retract the pilot may have been able to control the aircraft. If the slat locked in the extended position lift would not have been lost on the left wing and the stall and left roll may not have happened. I have worked with asymmetry detections systems for over 30 years and understand how and why they are installed. DC-10's prior to the accident in Chicago and no leading edge slat system asymmetry detection and prevention system. Did that cause the crash - no - was it a contributing factor - yes - .
 
eilennaei
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:13 am

474218: You're using a different terminology. What I understand the detection devices to be are the position sensors which route to the slat disagreement warning system. The relevant NTSB report does not use the term "detection device", I could only find a mention of a "lock" as in: "This is the only lock provided in the design [of the slat extension system]", or "positive mechanical locking devices [likewise]".
The systems you've worked with have consisted of two functional parts: the sensors and the locks that will act in the case of a disagreement on the data provided by the sensors. Your task would have been to coordinate the function of the two.

The text of the NTSB report is @: http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR79-17.pdf
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Why The "love" For DC-10/MD11 Freighters!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 10):
MD-11's make good cargo aircraft because they are cheap to buy, there systems are not very sophisticated,

not very sophisticated systems? excuse me..
the MD-11 is a fine jet and after the last 6 yrs. of flying it with nothing more than a tire failure under my belt I can't complain much. Why must this post regarding early software problems (pitch problems on ldg) continue to be hashed over and over when the plane now flys wonderfully?

You can take ANY jet flying and find a crash or two that might indicate a flaw in a system. There hasn't been THE perfect jet built yet.

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