FlyPNS1
Topic Author
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DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:05 am

DL has notified the DOT that they intend to start JFK-GRU service on April 1, 2006. DL will use existing frequencies to launch the route. Most likely (although DL doesn't state it), the frequencies will come from the 2nd daily ATL-GRU flight.

http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.cfm?documentid=377793&docketid=2338
 
Southamerica
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:17 am

Extremely interesting.

DL would have to face pretty tough competition: AA offering its best product onboard the 777s, JJ with its excellent reputation and service, and, as if it weren't enough, RG, the leader in frequencies on this market.

DL would be the fourth player in the route, and despite having such a sizeable presence in JFK, it would be DL's only route to South America from the airport.

They do, however, fully-codeshare with AV on all of the airline's Colombia-JFK routes.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
PPVRA
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:19 am

Probably looking for higher yields NYC can offer that ATL 2X daily cannot. The info I have is that both flight have an average 70% load in the last months, before peak season. It should go up to 100% in the coming days.

Cheers

edit: SouthAmerica, don't forget JL's 3X weekly and CO's service.

[Edited 2005-12-16 21:22:51]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Southamerica
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:26 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
don't forget JL's 3X weekly and CO's service.

True. I did thought about CO but did not include them being from EWR. You are absolutely right about JAL.

DL would then be the fifth [or six if one considers the whole New York City area]. Tough job.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
bsbisland
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:28 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
don't forget JL's 3X weekly.

And Continental daily GRU-EWR.
 
rwsea
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:29 am

Interesting development. DL has been wanting to add more Latin America flights from JFK (for instance, their application to fly EZE-JFK). Hopefully they can do well with the route. Startup costs will be minimal though, given DL's operations in all of these cities already.

I wonder if DL will consider putting a 764 on ATL-GRU once BizE is installed on these planes? If both of the daily ATL-GRU routes are profitable, this will be a lot of lost capacity.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:37 am

DL has a very heavy frequent flier presence in the NYC area, most of who, if given the option to fly DL metal down to LA would... Let's not forget that.

That being said, I do hope DL starts refurbing the 763 cabins faster, PTV's would be nice but not necessary IMO (altho most here die without having a PTV on a long-haul flight).
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:18 am

Any chance the B777-200 would operate the JFK-GRU route to compete with Varig, American, Continental, TAM, and, JAL?
No Vueling No Party
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:24 am

You have to look at this in broader terms: JFK WAR!

You have a full-fledged war at JFK that has been escalating for the past few years between Delta, JetBlue, and AA.

From what I can see, Delta is kicking AA's butt internationally. JetBlue is kicking AA's butt domestically.

The loser at JFK in this case, and throughout the past several years, is AA.

PJ
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:32 am

Strange move in my opinion........the NYC-GRU market is already well covered, and some of the airlines flying the route have good reputations as far as service, not to mention that AA and RG are well established on this route.

And, in order to fly this route, DL will have to exchange the second daily ATL-GRU flight for the new JFK service....does this make sense? DL is a powerhouse in ATL, and has flights from hundreds of cities to feed its flights out of ATL to GRU, and there is no competition at ATL - what is the logic of getting into a battle at JFK? It seems like DL is asking for trouble - in recent months, DL has been building up its ATL hub with more and more Latin American destinations, and now they are cutting capacity to one of the most important cities in South America.
 
Kahala777
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:51 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 9):
what is the logic of getting into a battle at JFK?

Assured O/D traffic, the route can survive with JFK termination alone.

KAHALA777
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 7):
Any chance the B777-200 would operate the JFK-GRU route to compete with Varig, American, Continental, TAM, and, JAL?

Not likely by DL!
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
rwsea
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:00 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 7):
Any chance the B777-200 would operate the JFK-GRU route to compete with Varig, American, Continental, TAM, and, JAL?

No chance at all. If DL had the 777s to spare (which they don't), I would assume they would put it on ATL-GRU first to make up for the loss of capacity.

That said, I don't think a 764 would be out of the question for either ATL-GRU or JFK-GRU once the Business Elite cabins are installed.
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:00 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 10):

Assured O/D traffic, the route can survive with JFK termination alone.

KAHALA777

I understand......JFK rules when it comes to O&D traffic, but DL will compete with AA, RG, JJ, CO and JL on this route.....its going to be difficult.....I would think that there are better opportunities elsewhere, say out of ATL. If DL cannot make two daily flights on the ATL-GRU route work, why not think outside of the box and be the first US carrier to offer service to Brasilia or Manaus?
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:03 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 12):
That said, I don't think a 764 would be out of the question for either ATL-GRU or JFK-GRU once the Business Elite cabins are installed.

That actually makes sense. Putting one route (likely ATL) on the 764 and one on the 763.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:55 am

Sounds more like a move to protect their slots than anything else. Clearly, the 2nd daily ATL-GRU is not working out well (I'm sure it is filling, but the yield has to be hurting), so rather than give up the valuable slots, Delta is just going to try them out on JFK-GRU. Maybe as a placeholder, because I could see Delta wanting to jump in on, maybe, ATL-SSA, in the far future (3-4 years down the road).
a.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:07 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
Sounds more like a move to protect their slots than anything else. Clearly, the 2nd daily ATL-GRU is not working out well (I'm sure it is filling, but the yield has to be hurting), so rather than give up the valuable slots, Delta is just going to try them out on JFK-GRU.

I agree. I think the 2x daily on ATL-GRU is overkill for most of the year...except at certain peak times.

However, the Brazilian frequencies are so valuable DL can't afford to give them up. JFK-GRU is going to be tough and DL may be a repeat of JFK-NRT...where DL got slaughtered because there was way too much competition on the route. It could take years before DL makes a profit on this route, but if DL really wants to make JFK it's second Latin American hub, they'll have to stick it out.

Maybe DL could try a JFK-GRU-JNB/CPT routing. If they can get fifth freedom rights on the GRU-JNB segment, it might work. Plus, they could time it so that passengers on the ATL-GRU flight could connect to the GRU-JNB segment. Just a wild guess.
 
willyj
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:42 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 16):
Maybe SA)">DL could try a JFK-GRU-JNB/CPT routing. If they can get fifth freedom rights on the GRU-JNB segment, it might work.

I was thinking that SA)">AA might benefit from flying on to South Africa. They have such a large presence in GRU/GIG, and with their JJ connections I would think they would do well. Additionally, BA has a large presence in S. Africa (I've forgotten their local airline's name), and they could offer connections on that end. And if not SA)">AA, then perhaps JJ. I've heard that SA does very well on the GRU-JNB route.

Delta doesn't have the local presence (or partner) for this type of flight.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
Sounds more like a move to protect their slots than anything else. Clearly, the 2nd daily ATL-GRU is not working out well (I'm sure it is filling, but the yield has to be hurting), so rather than give up the valuable slots, Delta is just going to try them out on JFK-GRU. Maybe as a placeholder, because I could see Delta wanting to jump in on, maybe, ATL-SSA, in the far future (3-4 years down the road).

Agree Mark. ATL-GRU was a really money maker for DL before oct 1st. When they start the daily flight to GIG (as previouslly discussed here), the two flights GRU-ATL has been hitted. They are probably trying to protect the yields droping one flight GRU-ATL and also trying to protect their slots.
But they need to put other plane (not the 767-300ER used on GRU-ATL nowadays) as JFK-GRU is a route with better planes used by their competitors:

- Varig is using two of their best 777's, with PTVs on all classes. Varig is also the king of this route with 11 weekly frequencies and keep ahead in terms of connections to/from Brazil. RG keep the best economy cabin for this route IMO.

- AA uses 777's also with PTVs on all classes. AA keep the advantage of the only one with leg to Rio de Janeiro without changing planes (50 to 100 exclusive pax every day). Strong domestic network in Brazil with Tam. AA keep the best first class cabin IMO for this route.

- TAM uses A330-200 (and it seems to become daily on the end of 1st quarter 2006). They have nowadays by far the best Business Cabin for this route IMO. Also, Tam is the only one with AVOD PTV system on their aircrafts on JFK-GRU. Strong connection network available in Brazil. Tam does not offer connections on JFK.

- Delta (?). If they use a 767-300ER without PTV's their economy will be out-of-date for the route. If they do not upgrade their business cabin, they cannot imagine to be best than Tam, and Delta does not offer connections on Brazil !

A question, how many connections they offer from JFK that would be better than ATL ?

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):
why not think outside of the box and be the first US carrier to offer service to Brasilia or Manaus?

Agree Dutchjet, and in my opinion they will run JFK-GRU during some months and probably will use the frequencies on other flights in the future. It's a huge improvement on JFK-GRU (from 17 flights on october/05 to 35 flights on april/06), and i don't believe the yields will keep so good for everyone.
The question IMO is who will be the first to reduce service to JFK.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
kkfla737
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:36 pm

It's about time Delta linked JFK and South America.
 
Kahala777
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:53 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):
....JFK rules when it comes to O&D traffic, but DL will compete with AA, RG, JJ, CO and JL on this route.....

The American general public travelling to Brasil knows four airlines for service to Brasil... AA, DL, CO, UA. In the New York market Delta is a very hefty hitter, and being as that it is in SkyTeam there are scores of connecting possibilities at JFK for Delta to use.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):
why not think outside of the box and be the first US carrier to offer service to Brasilia or Manaus?

If I am not mistaken Manaus, and Brasilia cannot be served by a U.S. airline at current.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
- Varig is using two of their best 777's, with PTVs on all classes. Varig is also the king of this route with 11 weekly frequencies and keep ahead in terms of connections to/from Brazil. RG keep the best economy cabin for this route IMO.

Varig, has done this before... We will have to play wait and see. In the passed Varig said they were at JFK with the 777 for good, and then a rattling MD-11 was back on the route due to the airlines almost laughable financial woes.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
- Delta (?). If they use a 767-300ER without PTV's their economy will be out-of-date for the route. If they do not upgrade their business cabin, they cannot imagine to be best than Tam, and Delta does not offer connections on Brazil !

Have you flown Varig? Past, or Present. I would not exactly call Varig a "stable" airline, with "stable" service standards. In addition it is unfortunate but true, many Americans prefer U.S. airlines over Latin American.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
A question, how many connections they offer from JFK that would be better than ATL ?

You would be suprised at how many people will go to great lengths to avoid the mess that is ATL. One of the major advantages for Delta Airlines at JFK, is that its operation is compact and not spread out over different terminals. Delta Airlines frequent fliers are aware of this. In addition O/D is a key factor. Even if a flight goes out with 65% to start, and then gains a higher LF they are doing good.

Quoting Kkfla737 (Reply 19):
It's about time Delta linked JFK and South America

They want JFK-EZE, very badly!


KAHALA777
 
incitatus
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:02 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 16):
However, the Brazilian frequencies are so valuable DL can't afford to give them up.

This has been my beef all along with bilaterals that restrict flight frequencies: Airlines make poor decisions about their routes (e.g., 2 x ATL-GRU) and then in order to save their share of the pie will add service between Xique-Xique and Chattanooga if they have to. Government officials that have nothing better to do distort the economic decisions of businesses with petty regulation.

Delta coming to JFK-GRU is excellent news to the travelers in the local market though. In order to fill out their plane it will be close to a ticket giveaway. I don't know if they will make money but with the current exchange rate there will be plenty of willing travelers.
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Kahala777
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:03 pm

The route that JFK, really needs is GIG!


KAHALA777
 
fewsolarge
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:11 pm

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 8):
Delta is kicking SA)">AA's butt internationally.

I don't know about all that.

But SA)">DL has to start somewhere in its long-planned expansion from JFK into SA. GRU would seem like the perfect market, as difficult as the challenges may be. They have a formidable frequent flyer base in NYC, so they're not exactly starting from scratch. But IMHO, they'll want to pour on more SA destinations pronto to build critical mass. Maybe if they reduce their system gate turn times to 5 minutes, they can squeeze another 100 virtual aircraft out of their fleet.
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:07 pm

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 20):
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):
why not think outside of the box and be the first US carrier to offer service to Brasilia or Manaus?

If I am not mistaken Manaus, and Brasilia cannot be served by a U.S. airline at current.

Of course they can. American Airlines even applied for Miami-Manaus a few years ago. The seven frequencies ended up going to Continental for Houston-Sao Paulo. There are no restrictions on what Brazilian airports US airlines can fly too. Assuming a new US-Brazil bilatteral is reached soon, as expected, look for AA to be flying to Brasilia by next winter.
a.
 
Brasuca
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:46 pm

It's inconceivable to think that an airline management board is stupid, so I'd rather think that my idea is the only stupid thing in this case.

Don't DELTA know that JFK-GRU market has recently been greatly expanded suddenly? Isn't their management board aware that this new flight will represent overcapacity of flights and chances to post losses for airlines is way greater than profiting from it?

Anyway... Why don't they convert 4 weekly ATL-GRU into 4 weekly JFK-GIG and remain with 10 weekly ATL-GRU?

Oh my God, I hope that I am not that stupid to have such opinion, but I can't ever agree that JFK-GRU is a correct move at all! Not within two years!

Shame on these dull airlines' decisions! (or on me, who knows...)  bomb 
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
LipeGIG
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:59 pm

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 20):
Varig, has done this before... We will have to play wait and see. In the passed Varig said they were at JFK with the 777 for good, and then a rattling MD-11 was back on the route due to the airlines almost laughable financial woes.

Yes they have done this in the past and stop (as their only competitor was AA). As soon as Tam confirm their new service to JFK, Varig has prepared PP-VRI and VRJ to fly GRU-JFK. They lost their MIA market due to the fact that they believe the M11 can fight against TAM's A330.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 20):
Have you flown Varig? Past, or Present. I would not exactly call Varig a "stable" airline, with "stable" service standards. In addition it is unfortunate but true, many Americans prefer U.S. airlines over Latin American.

Yes, i fly usually Tam and Varig. You can find my trip reports on both airlines. You're perfect saying RG is not "stable" during the hard problems they face nowadays. But on economy, they have really a nice service. The same advantage US airlines keep (about americans), RG keep, they have a large base of loyalty customers.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 24):
There are no restrictions on what Brazilian airports US airlines can fly too

In fact there are restrictions of destinations on the bilateral: Only Manaus, Brasilia, Rio de Janeiro, São Paulo, Recife, Porto Alegre, Belém, Belo Horizonte and Salvador. The other cities can be reached by code-share only.

Complete info on this bilateral is available now on internet only in portuguese:
http://www.cernai.gov.br/AcordosX.Asp?ID=24
(Its a new development of Brazilian Government, our CERNAI is the same as american DOT in terms of civil aviation international services)

ALL brazilian bilaterals are now available thru internet on CERNAI's website.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 22):
The route that JFK, really needs is GIG!



Quoting Brasuca (Reply 25):
Anyway... Why don't they convert 4 weekly ATL-GRU into 4 weekly JFK-GIG and remain with 10 weekly ATL-GRU?

Agree & Agree


Regards
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
BigGSFO
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:55 am

So are the two 2 767's required for this flight are coming from...??

Given their recent trans-atlantic announcement, additional Hawaii flights and now JFK-GRU, it'll be interesting to see which US stations will keep widebody domestic service.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 27):
So are the two 2 767's required for this flight are coming from...??

BigGSFO, they will use the 2 767's nowadays on the second daily ATL-GRU or they will change with other planes.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
bsbisland
Posts: 315
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:45 am

RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:12 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 27):
So are the two 2 767's required for this flight are coming from...??

From the second ATL-GRU that will be dropped.
 
md90fan
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:21 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 7):
Any chance the B777-200 would operate the JFK-GRU route to compete with Varig, American, Continental, TAM, and, JAL?

Not gonna happen its probably a 763/ER

Maybe DL will start another Latin America expansion next year  Smile
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
flyguy1
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:58 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
Varig is using two of their best 777's, with PTVs on all classes. Varig is also the king of this route with 11 weekly frequencies and keep ahead in terms of connections to/from Brazil. RG keep the best economy cabin for this route IMO.

Will RG keep these year round?
727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
 
PPVRA
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:05 am

Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 31):

Will RG keep these year round?

The 777s or the extra frequencies? The 777s are definately on the route for good, but the frequencies I think will be temporary. They could keep them (frequencies), or even expand to 2X daily if they found the aircraft to do it, but I think they will give priority to improve their service in other markets currently served by MD11s.

Cheers

[Edited 2005-12-19 02:06:59]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Kahala777
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:10 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 26):
as their only competitor was AA

JAL has been on the route for several years as well with the 747-400.

KAHALA777
 
Avianca
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:22 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 1):
it would be DL's only route to South America from the airport.

I can imagine that DL will route a big part of the european origin passengers to gru via this new jfk flight

regrards
avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Kahala777
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:27 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 34):
I can imagine that DL will route a big part of the european origin passengers to gru via this new jfk flight

Bingo.....

KAHALA777
 
flyguy1
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:17 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 32):
but the frequencies I think will be temporary

I was referring to the frequencies.
727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
 
bsbisland
Posts: 315
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:31 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 34):

I can imagine that DL will route a big part of the European origin passengers to gru via this new jfk flight

Based on this, Delta will not only have to compete with RG, AA, JJ, CO and JL, but also with LH, AF, TP, IB, BA, KL, AZ, PU, LX... tough competition...
I don´t think transiting in NYC is very attractive for pax from Europe to GRU. Only if Delta charges very low fares...

Anyway, I really hope this service works out. I think if they have a large frequent flyer presence in NYC, they can warrant a large percentage of O&D traffic and be successful. I hope for them.
 
AA767400
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:04 pm

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 8):
The loser at JFK in this case, and throughout the past several years, is AA.

Are we in highschool?  sarcastic 
"The low fares airline."
 
MarkATL
Posts: 486
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:18 pm

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 20):
You would be surprised at how many people will go to great lengths to avoid the mess that is ATL. One of the major advantages for Delta Airlines at JFK, is that its operation is compact and not spread out over different terminals. Delta Airlines frequent fliers are aware of this. In addition O/D is a key factor. Even if a flight goes out with 65% to start, and then gains a higher LF they are doing good.

VERY TRUE about ATL. I live in Atlanta have been known to drive to BHM just to avoid that horror of an airport. I also go to the Greenville (SC) area often and have stayed overnight if I'm traveling the next day so I could use GSP instead.
To all those who have transited ATL and say "it ain't so bad" trust me as an O/D point it is HELL. It was designed for half the people who use it and the terminal was designed for a 90%-10% mix originating to transiting passengers. Now we have twice the people and the O/D numbers are now around 30%...Do the math.
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
Avianca
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting BSBIsland (Reply 37):
Based on this, Delta will not only have to compete with RG, AA, JJ, CO and JL, but also with LH, AF, TP, IB, BA, KL, AZ, PU, LX... tough competition...
I don´t think transiting in NYC is very attractive for pax from Europe to GRU. Only if Delta charges very low fares...

nyc is more attractive to connect from europe to gru than via dfw (aa) and anyway AA is offering this and I can imagine that they are able to sell seats as the fares are not too bad... we will see-

regards
avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
wjcandee
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RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 39):
To all those who have transited ATL and say "it ain't so bad" trust me as an O/D point it is HELL

Well, I have spent the past few years going regularly to and from ATL. Provided that I'm not trying to depart ATL at 9am or 5pm, it's perfectly easy, particularly if I print my boarding pass out before arriving at the airport. Yes, there are a lot of travelers at peak times, and if I were traveling around the holidays in steerage without an upgrade or elite FF card, I could find myself slowed down substantially. But that's no worse than LAX at the same times of year. Just stay away from peak hours and it's a piece of cake.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:15 am

Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 31):
Will RG keep these year round?

Dec-March and June-August only. But there are plans on RG to run 11x year round (the 777 remains parked at JFK during all the day). But with so much increase in this route, can't believe RG upgrade this route year round.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 40):
nyc is more attractive to connect from europe to gru than via dfw (aa) and anyway AA is offering this and I can imagine that they are able to sell seats as the fares are not too bad... we will see

Could be competitive for cities without air link to Brazil. Not the case for LIS, MAD, CDG, MXP, FRA, AMS and LHR. Furthermore i remember that Brazilians do not need a visa to Europe but need a transit visa just to connect at US Airports (so you imagine that the pax that could connect thru United States is a very little group). Also, this Visa costs US$ 150,00 and if you live outside Brasilia, Rio, Recife and São Paulo, will you need to travel to one of those cities to request a transit visa (at least another US$ 300,00). I can't see so much market for Europe-US-Brazil connections.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:58 am

IMHO, If DL wants to hold to those ATL-GRU slots and make good use of them, then better use them for daily JFK-GIG-GRU.
Yes, the money is in GRU, but it seems that GIG needs more New York flights.
Other options for DL could be:
Daily BOS-GIG-GRU, Isn't DL big in BOS? or
4x week ATL-CNF-SSA and 3x week extra ATL-GRU.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
Kahala777
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:28 am

RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:08 am

Is it possible to see Delta Airlines change Brasilian service to the following:

ATL-GIG
1x 767-400

ATL-GRU
1 x 767-400

JFK-GRU
1 x 767-400

The demand is their for increased capacity to Brasil. Although I dont see JFK coming out of the gate with a 767-400, they could start it out of JFK if it was in a domestic configuration. JFK-GRU is not a heavy premium traffic market. The extra capacity the 764 can offer Delta an advantage over the other airlines, in addition to connecting them through a hub much easier to navigate than ATL.

KAHALA777
 
A330323X
Posts: 2666
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:06 pm

RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:04 am

Continental has filed an objection to Delta's plan to move seven of its U.S.-Brazil frequencies to the JFK-GRU market.

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf95/378264_web.pdf

CO's objection will likely be sustained, and the DOT would likely issue a carrier-selection proceeding before allowing DL to move the frequencies. I believe in that case, rather than risk losing the frequencies, DL will likely opt to withdraw its application and maintain its current service levels. I'm not sure whether they could find out the results of a carrier-selection proceeding before having to commit to changing their current service levels.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
Kahala777
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:28 am

RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:12 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 45):
Continental has filed an objection to Delta's plan to move seven of its U.S.-Brazil frequencies to the JFK-GRU market.

Last I checked Continental Airlines served Newark and not JFK. The only airline that should have a problem with this is AA who does operate ex JFK. In addition this is adding more fuel to the fire between Delta and Continental Airlines.

KAHALA777
 
FlyPNS1
Topic Author
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:19 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 45):
CO's objection will likely be sustained, and the DOT would likely issue a carrier-selection proceeding before allowing DL to move the frequencies.

I'm not so sure about that. If simply moving frequencies between gateways justified a carrier-selection proceeding, then we would be having lots of selection proceedings as AA has routinely moved frequencies between DFW, JFK and MIA over the past few years. Yet, despite all that movement, there has never been a carrier selection proceeding. To me, it seems a little ridiculous to issue a new proceeding each time a carrier moves frequencies around.

Here is what the DOT told DL in a filing last year about Brazil frequencies:

"We grant the request of Delta Air Lines, Inc. for an
amendment to the conditions applicable to its U.S.-
Brazil frequencies so that the carrier may use its
allocated frequencies in any markets where it holds
underlying economic authority for U.S.-Brazil
services."


DL already holds economic authority to serve JFK-GRU, so it would seem that CO's challenge might not hold up.

OTOH, it does seem a little disingenous on DL's part to aggressively go after Brazil slots using the "new gateway" justification, only to turnaround and use the slots at a gateway that is already well-served.
 
klwright69
Posts: 2395
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:23 am

Quoting BSBIsland (Reply 37):
Anyway, I really hope this service works out. I think if they have a large frequent flyer presence in NYC, they can warrant a large percentage of O&D traffic and be successful. I hope for them

I wonder whether the frequent flyer base is really enough. DL could not gain traction on certain routes like JFK to NRT and JFK to DEN. Others have already pointed out that the market is full of entrenched competitors.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 43):
Yes, the money is in GRU, but it seems that GIG needs more New York flights.

CO was unable to make EWR-GIG work. That says a great deal. If it doesn't make money, it matters little what GIG "needs."

I remember that many years ago, DL and CO were in a big battle over who would get authority to fly from NYC to GRU. CO did prevail. I was always under the impression that due to Braziliam bilateral issues, DL just couldn't unilaterally move slots from ATL to JFK. The question I have, is why didn't they initiate flights from GRU to JFK earlier?? I always thought flights from JFK to major South American markets were a top priority for DL.

Quoting A330323X (Reply 45):
Continental has filed an objection to Delta's plan to move seven of its U.S.-Brazil frequencies to the JFK-GRU market.

I don't understand this move. CO has no interest in acquiring rights from JFK to GRU. Who else would be interested in acquiring said rights.
 
incitatus
Posts: 2718
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: DL To Launch JFK-GRU

Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 44):
JFK-GRU is not a heavy premium traffic market.

What? Which planet are you on?
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