irishpower
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Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:49 pm

First off this is NOT to turn into an A vs. B thread.

I was just wondering what some off the biggest mistakes have been by airlines and the different types of aircraft they have ordered? What should they have done?

For example did PA order too many 747's back in the day (they had a hard time staying profitable during the oil crisis of the 1970's).
Should they have ordered the 767 or 757 back when they had a chance?

What are some other historical errors????
 
ehho
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:18 pm

Quoting Irishpower (Thread starter):
First off this is NOT to turn into an A vs. B thread.

Yeah right.

Well, few other suggestions: SU 772s, KL 763s (should've gone for A330 straight away).. LOT should have got themselves a few 772s.. would be making good profit out of ORD and JFK

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vegasplanes
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:24 pm

AA retiring it's 717's and F100's, no 100 seaters for AA or Eagle.

CO, EA, AA, DL, National ordering 747's in the early 70's.

AA and DL with the MD-11

DL and the MD-90

HP picking up used 747's

WN and the 727

Hind-sight is normally pretty accurate  Wink
 
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lindy field
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:24 pm

Delta certainly blew it when they replaced Pan Am's A310s with factory-new A310s, only to replace them a few years later with 767-300ERs.

National, Delta, and Continental didn't do too well with their original orders for 747-100s, nor did PSA with its L-1011s.
 
UpperDeck79
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:28 pm

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 2):
CO, EA, AA, DL, National ordering 747's in the early 70's.

Add SAS to that. Although I'm not sure when they acually ordered them - a long time ago anyway.
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dean
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:21 pm

MA (Malev) ordered 4 CRJ200s couple of years ago. Embraer gave a better deal, but they ordered the CRJs, nobody konows why. Nowadays those jets are few years old and they want to sell them due to high costs of operation.
Also I think the 762 was a bad choice, 763 would be more efficent!

OS with their A340s.

AC A345s.
 
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:34 pm

QF and their A330s, mostly cause of the A332s on domestic
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Doona
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:41 pm

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 4):
Add SAS to that. Although I'm not sure when they acually ordered them - a long time ago anyway.

SAS has a few more mistakes, IMO. Trying to replace their MD-80s with lots of 737NGs. Still, lots of MDs are still in service, along with A321s. And AFAIK, there are A319s on the way as well... Looks to me as if they should have gone with the A320 family from the beginning...

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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:25 pm

CO taking EA's A300's after the latter folded in the early 90's.
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manni
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:39 pm

South African ordering the 737NG, only to replace them with the A320 before they're all delivered.
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PSAjet17
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:13 pm

PSA ordering five specially modified L-1011s in the 70s.

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raggi
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:56 pm

BU ordered a couple of 767s in the 80s I think, they didn't last long.


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breiz
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:03 pm

Braathens S.A.F.E. and the B767-200 in the '90s,
Air Inter and the A330, in 89 (order),
both too big for the respective networks, and expected passenger loads did not materialize.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:06 pm

As pointed out above, in the late 1960s, most US carriers went on a widebody buying spree ordering lots of 747s, L1011s and DC10s that they simply did not need and could not fill......DL, EA, NA, PS, CO, AA and all of the rest come to mind.

DL adding to the A310 fleet that it inherited from Pan Am comes to mind......shortly aftet the new A313s were delivered, DL made the decision to make the 763ER is primarly longhaul airliner.

And, we cant forget the SQ fiasco with the A343......due to a very good offer from Boeing, SQ decided to phase the type out in favor of the 777 before SQ accepted delivery of the last few A343s it had on order.

AerLingus ordered 763ERs and quickly eliminated the type from their fleet.

And, SAS has never been very happy with the 736......although it was the launch customer for the type.
 
srbmod
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:28 pm

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 2):

AA and DL with the MD-11

DL and the MD-90

So the MD-11 didn't live up to the range projections MDD have sold them on, you can't blame DL and AA on that. DL used the MD-11 for well over a dozen years, so I wouldn't call that a mistake. As for the MD-90, DL had originally planned on the MD-90 to be their 727 replacement. But it was the teething problems of the a/c (along with some $$$ issues @ DL at the time) that doomed it to becoming a small niche fleet @ DL; so you could really blame MDD on that one as well.

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 2):
WN and the 727

The first time WN used them, it was as part of the judgement against Braniff in an anti-trust suit. The second time was on short-term lease (interestingly enough, ex-BN birds) while awaiting the delivery of 737s.
 
keesje
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:31 pm

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 2):
Hind-sight is normally pretty accurate

 Smile Agreed, so :


Some major airlines investing in next generation twin aisles.

Those aircraft may be delayed a year or so easily due to all innovative technology combined.

At the time those airlines have introduced significant numbers of these aircraft (& can start to make money) the current rapid economic growth period might well be over.

Airlines expanding at this moment in key markets with modern similar capacity aircraft might already have consolidated a big slice of the cake by that time.

"that time" = 2010-2011

Mark my words..
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ltbewr
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:45 pm

I would also add:
Where airlines ordered models that didn't sell well overall like Convair's in the 1960's, Air Inter's Caravelle (? only purchaser of a specific model)

Where ordered highly specific subtypes of aircraft. For example, where had In 'high and hot' ops needs, so ordered limited and unique submodels with a larger wing, larger engines, thus making them difficult for resale
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:33 pm

UA and the Caravelle


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BN for not ordering the DC-10 or L1011 for Latin America.


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yowza
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:12 am

Quoting Dean (Reply 5):
AC A345s.

Why exactly is this a mistake?

YOWza
 
boeingfever777
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 2):
WN and the 727

I don't think they ever placed an order for the 727, they only leased a few.

CO not keeping there MD-11's.
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dtwclipper
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:47 am

Quoting Boeingfever777 (Reply 19):
CO not keeping there MD-11's.

Uh, when did CO fly the MD-11?


BTW it's their and not there.

[Edited 2005-12-17 18:14:57]
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whitehatter
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:54 am

Quoting EHHO (Reply 1):

Well, few other suggestions: SU 772s, KL 763s (should've gone for A330 straight away).. LOT should have got themselves a few 772s.. would be making good profit out of ORD and JFK

Nope. SU liked their 772ER frames, and they were leased not bought. In fact they extended the lease a number of times. They were a little too large for them but at no time did they have problems with them. The 763 was a better fit as a replacement.

KL used the 763 on routes it fitted nicely with, not an issue. The 763 never lost KLM any money...

LO is just plain wrong. If they needed or wanted the 772 then they would have ordered them and not the 787. The 772 is too big for LO at the moment, and obviously will be for their immediate future.
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SA7700
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:17 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 9):
South African ordering the 737NG, only to replace them with the A320 before they're all delivered.

Although an order for 15x A320's was placed, it was cancelled. All of the SA 738's are flying around in all their glory.


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PennPal
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:25 am

American and the CV990???

Air Inter with the Dassault Mercure??

Cimber Air with the DFW 614???
 
N1120A
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:26 am

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 2):
WN and the 727

They were leased in for expansion and quickly phased out.

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 2):
AA and DL with the MD-11

DL and the MD-90

Both of those require hindsight. The MD-11 was outselling both the 777 and the A340 at one point.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 6):
QF and their A330s, mostly cause of the A332s on domestic

Operationally, those A330s have been a nightmare because of their inability to do quick turns off short hauls without suffering major reliability issues. Financially, QF got them basically for free in exchange for an A380 launch order.

Quoting MX757 (Reply 8):
CO taking EA's A300's after the latter folded in the early 90's.

EA was folded into CO for all intents and purposes. Both airlines were owned by Frank "The Devil" Lorenzo's Texas Air at the time. CO's main problem with the A300s was their idiotic MX planning.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):
And, we cant forget the SQ fiasco with the A343......due to a very good offer from Boeing, SQ decided to phase the type out in favor of the 777 before SQ accepted delivery of the last few A343s it had on order.

The 772ER was a superior plane to the A343, which SQ was having problems with.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):
And, SAS has never been very happy with the 736......although it was the launch customer for the type.

Well, that is their fault for buying a plane with nearly identical operating costs to, but not as many seats as the 73G

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 17):
UA and the Caravelle

How was that a mistake?
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jdwfloyd
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:32 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 17):
UA and the Caravelle

The reason they ordered the Caravelle was to be the first in the jet age. The Caravelle was up and running first so UA had little choice but to order it. But I do agree that outside of allowing them to become the first to have jets in America the Caravelle was a bad choice.
 
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coronado
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:40 am

NWA ordering the Avro RJ85 for operation by Mesaba before there was any resolution on the number of seats allowed on it due to scope clauses. Running around with a scope limited max 69 pax in a relatively heavy, relatively slow, relatively complicated, and rather fuel inefficient 4 engine a/c never did seem to make a lot of sense to me.

It is a great the passenger with all the leg room but from an operating economics perspective not the brightest decision. Even if it could make it in and out of Aspen!
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malmoaviation
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:29 am

Maybe when SK ordered some 747s in the early 80s I think. They almost flew empty, but in those good old fun days you could fly a fueldrinking 747 empty and make profit on the flight  Wink
 
AC787
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:29 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 18):
Quoting Dean (Reply 5):
AC A345s.

Why exactly is this a mistake?

my exact thoughts. AC operates a fairly sizeable fleet of 343's and ordered the 345s to operate the yyz-hkg route. Other then the supposed problems AC has had with these aircraft, they have done there job... not to mention AC got a great deal on them.
 
irishpower
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:21 am

What about DL and the DC-10's they inherited from Western! They seemed a bit out of place.
 
md90fan
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:11 am

Quoting EHHO (Reply 1):
SU 772s

Why were they a mistake, know they are with Vietnam Airlines

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
Operationally, those A330s have been a nightmare because of their inability to do quick turns off short hauls without suffering major reliability issues. Financially, QF got them basically for free in exchange for an A380 launch order.

Why did QF got get 332's for there CityFlyer operation?
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ACdreamliner
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:29 am

Quoting Dean (Reply 5):
AC A345s.

im not sure. AC got them cheap and makes a sweet yield on them from what i can tell...
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AndersNilsson
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:37 am

SAS four Airbus A300 with P&W engines was a big mistake.

Anders
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ehho
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:49 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 21):
SU liked their 772ER frames

My dad flew one of them, VP-BAS, SVO-PEK. During the flight he had an exchange with the captain, who complained a lot about lack of maintenance and training and showed my dad a few malfunctioning onboard devices, among them a non-working ACARS transmitter and A/C unit. Other members of the crew agreed, suggesting that the lease on the two planes was a political thing.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 21):
The 772 is too big for LO at the moment

Perhaps, but I constantly hear buzz from ORD about chronically full loads, overbooking and unavailability of cheap fares even well in advance.

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 30):
Why were they a mistake, know they are with Vietnam Airlines

Them being sold to VN is surely a sign of failure.
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:49 am

SQ and the 757. They only had four before they settled on the A310 for their shorter flights from Singapore. Those four birds are now with DL.

BD and the A321. Always seemed strange replacing 733s and 734s with an aircraft that size. Now they're retiring them and adding the A319. The A319/A320 mix is a much better fit.

BA and the 734. Ordered 27 in the early 1990s, when it was taking delivery of the ex-BCal ordered A320s. Within ten years had ordered A320 family aircraft over the 737NG, and a third of its 734s have since left the fleet, whereas those ex-BCal A320s are still going strong.
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RIXrat
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:37 am

As of last summer, SK still had some of its MD-80s in SAS colors parked at RIX. They apparently were going to Snowflake, but I understand that venture isn't going as well as planned, either.
 
bohica
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:40 am

Quoting Irishpower (Reply 29):
What about DL and the DC-10's they inherited from Western! They seemed a bit out of place.

A lot of airlines inherit A/C through mergers which are not compatable with their fleets and the airlines usually get rid of them in a few years.

On the other hand, has anyone ever heard NW complain about the DC-9's they inherited? NW never had a DC-9 before the Republic merger.
 
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:14 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 9):
South African ordering the 737NG, only to replace them with the A320 before they're all delivered.

But that order was cancelled and the B738s are still flying for SA

Quoting YOWza (Reply 18):
Quoting Dean (Reply 5):
AC A345s.

Why exactly is this a mistake?

Obviously the B772LR is favoured compared to the A345s in this market.

Another one was SA buying A320s and then ordering B738s
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whitehatter
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:18 am

You could also say any carrier that bought the Avro RJ70

The economics on that aircraft are terrible.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 34):
BD and the A321. Always seemed strange replacing 733s and 734s with an aircraft that size. Now they're retiring them and adding the A319. The A319/A320 mix is a much better fit.

We've all heard the rumours but I haven't yet seen anything definite about BD and the A321. They always seem to be full on shuttles, and come in useful for charter work in the summer.

The thinking there was that BD would have an equivalent to the BA 757 but at lower cost for shorter routes.
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letsgetwet
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:59 am

Continental should have ordered more 757's before they were discontinued
 
greatansett
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:04 am

Qantas and the 787  Wink
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jimh615
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:33 am

Someone elighten me, what's wrong with the MD-90? I love flying in them.
 
stirling
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:35 am

Southern Airways-Swearingen Metro
Eastern-747
Independence-CRJ
Laker Airways-A300
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USADreamliner
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:54 am

Aerolineas Argentinas and the 747SP having the 747-200, why order just one SP?


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manni
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:03 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 22):
Although an order for 15x A320's was placed, it was cancelled. All of the SA 738's are flying around in all their glory.


Really? What happened there?
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whitehatter
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:26 am

Quoting Jimh615 (Reply 41):
Someone elighten me, what's wrong with the MD-90? I love flying in them.

many techy niggles and hard to get spares due to nonstandard engine type. The V2500 does not sit well on that aircraft.

It does not share that much commonality with the MD-80 which is a much more common aircraft. Shame really as it's quiet and comfortable.
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FlyboyOz
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:10 am

Cathay Pacific and their A346s. They have only two or three A346s because they are not happy with it.
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manni
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:06 pm

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 46):
Cathay Pacific and their A346s. They have only two or three A346s because they are not happy with it.

They only have three, because at the time they choose the A340-600 they only needed 3. This to introduce a nonstop HKG-JFK service.
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:26 pm

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 34):
SQ and the 757.

SQ operated both the B757 and A310 at the same time to see which one would remain in their fleet, the A310 was better for SQ so the B757s left the fleet. Can't really say this is an order mistake as SQ were testing both aircraft
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dtwclipper
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RE: Airlines And Their Order Mistakes!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:11 pm

Ex BN/N604BN

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 43):
Aerolineas Argentinas and the 747SP having the 747-200, why order just one SP?

They did not order it, they purchased it second hand from Braniff International.

LV-OHV (cn 21786/413) Ex BN/N604BN
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