764
Topic Author
Posts: 486
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 6:34 pm

United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:54 am

From a recent news story at Chicago Tribune:

Quote:

...
Also Friday, Bankruptcy Judge Eugene Wedoff cleared roadblocks to United's plans to take possession of 14 leased aircraft. While the airline has been able to restructure most other plane leases, the 14 have been tied up in legal disputes.
...

This is lovely news for United.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:02 am

Does anyone know which types?
 
VSGirl
Posts: 316
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:18 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:20 am

Thats really good news for UAL, I am so pleased they are getting back on their feet - it just goes to show you cant keep a good airline down for long.

Did they not have some Boeing 744's & Boeing 772's parked up some where?

Kimberly.
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:23 am

Well, UA may get some airplanes back, but this stock incentive deal for managment is going to be a problem with UA's employees........after UA beat up its employees and unions, management is going to give itself a $285 million present in reward for a job well done?
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22948
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:00 am

Salvaging the US' second largest airline without selling it off in pieces strikes me as a "job well done", but let's face it - Tilton and a number of execs will be shown the door when UA exits, both because it will appease the union's leadership who can look like they actually do something for their members and to allow some more "airline-focused" people to come in and take over.

I just hope Jack Brace is one of the execs shown the door. A few tens of million is a small price to pay to get rid of him.  Wink
 
Kahala777
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:28 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:32 am

Let the first route of expansion begin! Isnt United Airlines planning to add ORD-NGO? ORD-SEL?

KAHALA777
 
FA4UA
Posts: 777
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 6:26 pm

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:30 am

I would wager we'll bring back SFO-ICN before we do ORD-ICN.

I'd love to know what aircraft we're bringing back online!

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
SFORunner
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:23 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:38 am

Quoting FA4UA (Reply 6):
I would wager we'll bring back SFO-ICN before we do ORD-ICN.

SFO-ICN looks like it resumes on April 2 2006, after a seasonal stoppage.
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:43 am

Quoting VSGirl (Reply 2):
Thats really good news for UAL, I am so pleased they are getting back on their feet - it just goes to show you cant keep a good airline down for long.

hear hear.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
Well, UA may get some airplanes back, but this stock incentive deal for managment is going to be a problem with UA's employees........after UA beat up its employees and unions, management is going to give itself a $285 million present in reward for a job well done?

real life is never that simple.

You pay peanuts, you get monkeys. Sometimes it's not the company that sets the salary levels, but actually Wall Street. Investors and creditors insist on certain people and standards for management, and if you want the right people you have to pay the going rate. Or what they demand.

UAL could appoint a new CEO at $25,000 a year tomorrow. And the same day, investors and creditors would bail out and the whole airline would go into Chapter 7. The money guys set the rules, and the company has to play along. So consider that angle to what goes on.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:40 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 8):
You pay peanuts, you get monkeys. Sometimes it's not the company that sets the salary levels, but actually Wall Street. Investors and creditors insist on certain people and standards for management, and if you want the right people you have to pay the going rate. Or what they demand.

UAL could appoint a new CEO at $25,000 a year tomorrow. And the same day, investors and creditors would bail out and the whole airline would go into Chapter 7. The money guys set the rules, and the company has to play along. So consider that angle to what goes on.

Wait, what was that...oh yeah, the creditors are the ones saying the payoffs are outrageous.
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:42 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 9):
Wait, what was that...oh yeah, the creditors are the ones saying the payoffs are outrageous.

I am not justifying it.

I merely tried to explain why some of these big paydays happen. It's Wall street and other investors dictating who they want and (by extension) what needs to be paid to get or keep them.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Kahala777
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:28 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:19 pm

Quoting SFORunner (Reply 7):
SFO-ICN looks like it resumes on April 2 2006, after a seasonal stoppage

That is great news! Thanks for that!

KAHALA777
 
MrMcCoy
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:17 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:22 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 1):
Does anyone know which types?

Yeah, 727-200's. Big grin
It only takes five years to go from rumor to standard operating procedure.
 
chgoflyer
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:16 pm

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:55 pm

I wonder if the pilots will get the same meal as business class passengers... I know this has been a big issue for them in the past. Remember the UA pilot who complained that his creme brulee was not browned like the passengers. That's the main example the Feds used not to grant UA relief after 9/11. Basically United never recovered from the job actions taken buy the pilots during their last negotiations.

This passenger would like to see UA re group and come back stronger with all new pilots.
Will someone please wake me up in 4 years
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 10997
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:28 pm

Quoting MrMcCoy (Reply 12):
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 1):
Does anyone know which types?

Yeah, 727-200's.

LOL, and they are leasing some DC-9s from NW, too.  bigthumbsup 

My guess is these could be the B-767-300ERs, B-777-200s, and B-747-400s. Isn't in the long range international airplanes that UA needs?  scratchchin 
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:40 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 10):
I merely tried to explain why some of these big paydays happen. It's Wall street and other investors dictating who they want and (by extension) what needs to be paid to get or keep them.

WhiteHatter, I actually agree with you on this one... praise .....

WallStreet, creditors, board members, etc. dictate and approve of the rates.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
ual777
Posts: 1491
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:04 pm

Quoting Chgoflyer (Reply 13):
this passenger would like to see UA re group and come back stronger with all new pilots.

COME ON! How can you possibly make a statement like this? That is extremely insulting to my father who is a UA 777 captain and has been with the company for almost 28 years. You get dumbasses at all companies, but that doesn't reflect on all of them.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
mcdu
Posts: 895
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:39 pm

Quoting Chgoflyer (Reply 13):
Remember the UA pilot who complained that his creme brulee was not browned like the passengers. That's the main example the Feds used not to grant UA relief after 9/11.

Can you please post a link/source for this statement? I am a UA Captain and have never heard any such story. Also, in almost 20 years at UAL I have yet to ever see a creme brulee on a crew meal tray. While I am not a chef I believe a creme brulee would need to be browned using a small blow torch, something the feds most likely would not allow to be used while in flight.

If you choose to dislike UA and its pilots then that is your perogative. However, to fabricate information is a bit harsh and unjust. This pilot group has been active in assisting the airline with exit of BK and trying to put us back on the path of profitability. The main reason UA was not granted the ATSB loan had nothing to do with creme brulee. The lobbying from MSP, ATL, DFW had a tremendous amount to do with UA not getting the ATSB loan. GWB in the white house played a large role in UA not getting the ATSB. Creme Brulee had NOTHING to do with the ATSB as I suspect this story is a lie.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:55 pm

Quoting VSGirl (Reply 2):
Did they not have some Boeing 744's & Boeing 772's parked up some where?

There are no one 772 parked. In the past Varig, Air India and some others get the UA's 772 parked at deserts. The last one will be soon under Varig or Air India tails very soon (don't know who will be the operator).

UA need to wait for the end of each leasing agreement to see those birds back.

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2107
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:55 pm

I wonder if we'll now see UA go back into the India market?  Confused
 
shindig31
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:32 pm

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:14 am

I do not believe this bankruptcy transaction is one that will lead to an increase of 14 aircraft to United's current fleet but rather one which will help insure that they do not lose the 14 aircraft to the leasing company or companies.This had occurred at least one other time during bankruptcy when United received the courts permission to buy out the leases on I believe some 767-300's that they were unable to reach a restructuring deal with the paper holders.I believe United is just simply wrapping up some of its last obstacles to exiting chapter 11.I am not sure if it is U.S. bankruptcy law or just the terms of the aircraft leases themselves that give United the ability to buy the aircraft in dispute but either way it required the consent of the bankruptcy Judge.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:39 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 10):
It's Wall street and other investors dictating who they want and (by extension) what needs to be paid to get or keep them.

All publications have said that the 15% amount of stock that UA wants for upper management is over the normal amount in situations like this one.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
UnitedTristar
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:45 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:05 am

Quoting Shindig31 (Reply 20):
I do not believe this bankruptcy transaction is one that will lead to an increase of 14 aircraft to United's current fleet but rather one which will help insure that they do not lose the 14 aircraft to the leasing company or companies.This had occurred at least one other time during bankruptcy when United received the courts permission to buy out the leases on I believe some 767-300's that they were unable to reach a restructuring deal with the paper holders.I believe United is just simply wrapping up some of its last obstacles to exiting chapter 11.I am not sure if it is U.S. bankruptcy law or just the terms of the aircraft leases themselves that give United the ability to buy the aircraft in dispute but either way it required the consent of the bankruptcy Judge.

This is exactly what is happening. There was a long running dispute that these lease holders did not want UA to purchase these aircraft. There was a clause in the contract that would allow the purchase so that is what UA is doing instead of paying higher then market rate leases on them. The lean holders wanted to get them back to lease them at higher rates to some carriers looking for 767's.

-m

 airplane 
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:19 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 16):
COME ON! How can you possibly make a statement like this? That is extremely insulting to my father who is a UA 777 captain and has been with the company for almost 28 years. You get dumbasses at all companies, but that doesn't reflect on all of them.

Do you get to fly on them regularly?.....Does he every fly to LHR?


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Jacobin777



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 21):

All publications have said that the 15% amount of stock that UA wants for upper management is over the normal amount in situations like this one.

when FR was almost going bust many years ago, Michael O'Leary made a deal that he would only take the helm of FR if he got a certain share of the company......now he's worth a cool few hundred million quid....but look at what he's done to the company, he's taken it to a level no one would have dreamed possible!!!!

15% isn't too far above normal amount sitiuations for the top 400 people at a company........and as mentioned in the article, it is still being negotiated.....it will probably wind up somewhere between 7-10%, which would fall well within the norm...
"Up the Irons!"
 
trevd
Posts: 332
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:51 pm

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:25 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 16):
this passenger would like to see UA re group and come back stronger with all new pilots.

COME ON! How can you possibly make a statement like this? That is extremely insulting to my father who is a UA 777 captain and has been with the company for almost 28 years. You get dumbasses at all companies, but that doesn't reflect on all of them.

Can't say I blame him, and remember he was only expressing his personal opionion. I too have a huge lack of respect for the UAL pilot group that stems all the way back to the 2000 Summer from Hell. I can't tell you how many business meetings, customer events and most importantly Kid events and overall time with my family was screwed up by the selfishness of this group.

While Tilton and UAL have done a credible job bringing the airline back, I expect it will all come crashing back down after exiting BK once the various union groups start scheming how once again to start feeding on the carcass.

No disrespect intended to your dad or to Mcdu, hopefully both will both avoid and fight this behaviour going forward. Because if this starts happening again, I fully expect to see UAL back in BK and either a takeover target or to be liquidated and have the pieces sold off.
 
mcdu
Posts: 895
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:54 am

Quoting TrevD (Reply 24):
Can't say I blame him, and remember he was only expressing his personal opionion. I too have a huge lack of respect for the UAL pilot group that stems all the way back to the 2000 Summer from Hell. I can't tell you how many business meetings, customer events and most importantly Kid events and overall time with my family was screwed up by the selfishness of this group.

TrevD,

My apologies for your inconvenience during the summer of 2000. As a regular line pilot I can say that the majority of our pilots flew exactly the same way we fly today. There is no difference. While I don't discount some pilots not hurrying or having a chip on their shoulder in 2000 it was not the widespread pilot slowdown as so often quoted in the media by our long gone management team.

During that summer we were severely understaffed in the pilot ranks and the company did not get back to normal ops until they reduced the schedule by over 8% to account for the lack of crews. Also I don't remember a summer of worse ATC delays due to saturation. It was the bubble that burst and we all found out the hard way.

If you follow this board then you are obviously airline "savvy". If so you remember the logger head and lawsuit that AA won against APA during the AA pilot slowdown a few years ago prior to the UA summer of 2000. This award almost bankrupted the AA pilots union as the company won damages against the union. Seeing this result at AA do you not truly believe UA would have sued ALPA if there was merrit to a slowdown by the UA pilots? Again I am just a line pilot so this is my impression. If this was an illegal job action the company could have made serious kibble at ALPA's expense.

The leaders we had during the summer of 2000 were the weakest group we have ever had at this company. Goodwin and Dutta together could not run a hot dog stand. These two guys chose the easy way out of bad situation that summer and they used the media to blame the pilots for understaffing and weather issues (remember ord now has caps on traffic because of that summer). The problem I see is everyone had a hand in the meltdown but only the pilots are the target of the blame. As someone who loves to fly airplanes and loves my job and company it is sad to see our legacy as the summer of 2000. We get no credit for the 40-60% cuts our pilots took in pay alone not to mention quality of life issues to keep the airline flying after 9/11. We have lost 80% of our pensions and had our growth and movement slowed because of the mess Goodwin, Dutta and Dubinsky dumped on our laps. The improvement to #1 of the majors in on-time is often overlooked as people focus on the past.

While we still have a ways to go I hope you will come back and find a better UA to do business with.

Take care and happy holidays
 
tozairport
Posts: 463
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:01 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:56 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 25):

My apologies for your inconvenience during the summer of 2000.

Mcdu,

That was a very true and factual account of what happened in 2000, but telling it to guys like TrevD and Chgoflyer is like telling it to a poorly constructed brick wall. They would rather not listen and fall all over themselves than get over what they perceive happened that summer. Thanks for trying, but posters like that are sometimes better left to die on the A.net vine. By the way, welcome to my respected users list (you're the first!)

tozairport
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:04 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 16):

COME ON! How can you possibly make a statement like this? That is extremely insulting to my father who is a UA 777 captain and has been with the company for almost 28 years. You get dumbasses at all companies, but that doesn't reflect on all of them.

Blaming is all the UA pilots is just wrong. The problem is only with the union pilots. I've flown with some of UA's 20 or so test pilots (all of whom are non-union) and they are great. A real credit to their profession and to UA. So please don't call for replacing all UA pilots.
 
tozairport
Posts: 463
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:01 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:21 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 27):
The problem is only with the union pilots.

Blah, Blah, Blah... I bet they taught you that anti-union garbage in your very first class in business school. The in-breeding is amazing. Did you know that without the work on ALPA and other unions, the skies would not be nearly as safe as they are now? That things like SOIA, LAHSO, RVSM, etc. would be no where near as safe without the work of the evil union volunteers. Management only cares about safety to the extent of how it effects the bottom line. The unionized pilots care because it ALLOWS THEM, AND THE PASSENGERS, TO LIVE! Then again, you are a "CEO", so you would know all about that, wouldn't you.

Manage safe,

tozairport
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
swank300
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:37 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:24 am

I absolutely agree with Zvezda. Pilots are not fussy or overly difficult, they, along with every other profession just want what they have been promised and what they deserve. In fact, pilots, and in my experience UAL pilots in particular, are some of the most professional and hardworking people out there! Lets be honest, the planes don't fly without the pilots and they have alot of weight in negotiations because of that. That just means the respective companies can't steamroll over them to get the concessions they want. I agree that while it is an extremely difficult time for the airlines, the employees still have a right to hold out to get the best deal for both sides of the company.
P.S. If all the pilots were to be fired and replaced, the airline wouldn't be flying anymore.....they are too much of an asset.
 
StevenUhl777
Posts: 3281
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 11:02 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:31 am

So we went from a discussion on UA getting 14 aircraft back to a union-pilot bashing.

How typical....  Yeah sure

Mods: why not delete the non-relevant threads that don't pertain to the topic?
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:39 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 25):

If you follow this board then you are obviously airline "savvy". If so you remember the logger head and lawsuit that AA won against APA during the AA pilot slowdown a few years ago prior to the UA summer of 2000. This award almost bankrupted the AA pilots union as the company won damages against the union. Seeing this result at AA do you not truly believe UA would have sued ALPA if there was merrit to a slowdown by the UA pilots?

The judge didn't enforce the judgement. It was just symbolic and AA never got a dime of the money and never will.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 25):
Goodwin and Dutta together could not run a hot dog stand.

Goodwin was hand-picked by ALPA and IAM. Edwards was far more competent, but the unions vetoed his promotion to CEO.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 25):
We have lost 80% of our pensions and had our growth and movement slowed because of the mess Goodwin, Dutta and Dubinsky dumped on our laps.

It's nice to see a (union?) pilot recognize that Dubinsky contributed to the problems as much as anyone. Don't forget Jake Brace who, while having done a creditable job of steering UA through Chapter 11, was responsible for both of the biggest mistakes by UA management over the last decade: Avolar and the failed US buyout.

Again, I have nothing against the pilots per se, but the unions have done tremendous damage.

Quoting Tozairport (Reply 28):
Management only cares about safety to the extent of how it effects the bottom line.

All safety issues affect the bottom line.
 
ual777
Posts: 1491
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:20 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 23):
Do you get to fly on them regularly?.....Does he every fly to LHR?

I get to NRSB. He is based at Dulles, but he mostly flies to AMS. Occasionally he will throw in a trip to LHR or FRA, but AMS fits his schedule better to get home at night.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:48 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 17):
While I am not a chef I believe a creme brulee would need to be browned using a small blow torch, something the feds most likely would not allow to be used while in flight.

you could do it with a broiler... also not something i'm aware of being on an airliner.
 
mcdu
Posts: 895
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:45 am

Quoting Tozairport (Reply 26):
Thanks for trying, but posters like that are sometimes better left to die on the A.net vine. By the way, welcome to my respected users list (you're the first!)

Toza,

Thank you very much. That is a tremendous honor to have bestowed upon me. I try not to enter the debate on the past problems but it was such a perfect storm of events that led to the meltdown that summer. We were also flying a large portion of 737-200's and 727's produced in the late 60's in the summer of 2000. Almost 40 year old airplanes are tempermental no matter how well they are maintained.

As a UA pilot I can say we have a tremendously proud workforce. I am still amazed that you can fill a 767 to the brim with pax and cargo, have the mechanics perform an ETOPS check and also repair several items and still the tug driver calls on the interphone at exactly departure time to tell me he is ready for the push back. Just thinking about the number of people involved in getting to this exact point in time for an on-time departure still astounds me. You don't transport the vast numbers of passengers that we carry without a solid team and a staff that can execute the plan.

UA has been an easy target as we hung our laundry on the media washing line to air out before the other carriers did. I recently head Tilton talk and he mentioned this specifically. His point was that UA was not liked by the media due to the people that were in the position of media relations were not suited for that job. Since Tilton has come to UA he has been responsible for around an 80% turnover of the division leaders. Marketing, Advertising, Sales, Cargo and various other core divisions now have well qualified and well skilled people doing the jobs.

Take care.
 
mcdu
Posts: 895
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:52 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 31):
The judge didn't enforce the judgement. It was just symbolic and AA never got a dime of the money and never will.

I believe you might be wrong on this point. IIRC the APA was saddled with a large debt and was in negotiations with AMR in how it was to pay the damages it owed. My memory was during the post 9/11 givebacks at APA, AMR agreed to dismiss its claim and allow APA off the hook. This move alone kept APA from possible financial ruin and at the time the rumor was that the AA pilots would be joining ALPA as a result of the financial difficulties the APA was facing.

Someone from AA may have better information but I am almost positive this is the way it played out.

But even if the company was not going to receive any money they did win the lawsuit and put the union under tremendous pressure to end the job action. Again, why did UAL not do the same thing if they thought they could have stopped the summers difficulties with a court order? Again I contend they knew much of the damage that was taking place was self inflicted due to the staffing issues, ATC and overall irrational scheduling of too many a/c to too little pavement.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:01 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 35):
My memory was during the post 9/11 givebacks at APA, AMR agreed to dismiss its claim and allow APA off the hook. This move alone kept APA from possible financial ruin and at the time the rumor was that the AA pilots would be joining ALPA as a result of the financial difficulties the APA was facing.

AA agreed to foresake the debt as part of contract negotiations because it had become clear that the judge was not going to enforce it.
 
tozairport
Posts: 463
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:01 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:07 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 34):
As a UA pilot I can say we have a tremendously proud workforce.

I'm with ya there. I'm a 767 guy out of SFO. Maybe come February the media will find a new bird to pick on.... We'll see.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
CHI787ORD
Posts: 668
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:27 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:35 pm

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 19):
I wonder if we'll now see UA go back into the India market?

Rumor is that UA will be starting ORD-DEL-BOM and SFO-NRT-BLR as soon as they can get the right planes.
 
skytony
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:25 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:52 pm

Does anyone know what type of the leased aircraft that are coming back to United?
Lower your expectations! You will always be pleasantly surprised!
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:04 pm

Quoting Skytony (Reply 39):
Does anyone know what type of the leased aircraft that are coming back to United?

I'd like to know that as well...I know they purchased 4 763s earlier, are those part of this deal?
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:05 pm

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 38):

Rumor is that UA will be starting ORD-DEL-BOM and SFO-NRT-BLR as soon as they can get the right planes.

they are already going to have competition..and to do ORD-DEL, they will certainly need a 777...
"Up the Irons!"
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2107
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:35 pm

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 38):
Rumor is that UA will be starting ORD-DEL-BOM and SFO-NRT-BLR as soon as they can get the right planes.

Jeez, at long last, we are back with the thread!

do we know if the 14 planes are already in the fleet or gathering dust in the desert?
 
na
Posts: 9129
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:56 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 18):
There are no one 772 parked.

N766UA is still stored according to my sources and there are no photos of it newer than from April 2004 gathering dust in the desert.
 
CHI787ORD
Posts: 668
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:27 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:51 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 41):
they are already going to have competition..and to do ORD-DEL

They certainly will recieve alot of competition from AA, but what will make this route work is the BOM extension. I think UA will have better loads than AA because of the high number of BOM area expats in the Chicago area and being the only airline to have an almost nonstop from USA to Bombay.
 
ca2ohHP
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:14 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:59 am

Quoting Tozairport (Reply 28):
Management only cares about safety to the extent of how it effects the bottom line.

That's the most irresponsible thing I've heard on this website. To suggest that management cares less about safety than the unions makes me sick.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:16 am

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 44):

They certainly will recieve alot of competition from AA, but what will make this route work is the BOM extension. I think UA will have better loads than AA because of the high number of BOM area expats in the Chicago area and being the only airline to have an almost nonstop from USA to Bombay.

AA has a nice leg up already (I've heard that the ORD-DEL loads are strong-but not the other way around for now)..

I didn't know UA had freedom rights to pick up pax from BOM-DEL-USA..

but unless AA does something about this, or at the least code-share it properly, UA might do well on this route also..
"Up the Irons!"
 
tozairport
Posts: 463
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:01 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:24 am

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 45):
To suggest that management cares less about safety than the unions makes me sick.

Well, then take a Zanax or something, because it is true. You name me one safety initiative, at least one that cost $$$, that was initiated by management or the ATA. The very origins of ALPA came not for a want of increased pay but because there were a series of crashes directly attributed to pilot pushing by management.

I hope you feel better soon.  vomit 

tozairport
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
Kahala777
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:28 am

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:29 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 41):
they are already going to have competition..and to do ORD-DEL, they will certainly need a 777...

Delhi-ORD was to be 747-400 back in 2001 before 9-11.

KAHALA777
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: United Gets Back 14 Leased Aircraft

Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:32 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 41):
they are already going to have competition..and to do ORD-DEL, they will certainly need a 777...

Not to mention needing to borrow one from someone else, because they have no chance at making that route with their current fleet of 648,000 pound 772ERs. They had weight struggles on LAX-AKL to the point that they had to cancel the route, and that is 900 nm shorter. In fact, a 744 would do better from a range prospective (not to mention mountain issues).
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss

Who is online