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1337Delta764
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Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:26 am

Who do you think will be the engine selection of potential and future 787 orders?

Current orders:
Blue Panorama - GEnx
Primaris - Trent 1000
Vietnam - Trent 1000
Chinese carriers - ???
Ethiopian - GEnx
Icelandair - GEnx
Garuda Indonesia - GEnx
ILFC - Trent 1000
Qantas - ???

Potentail future orders:
Delta - GEnx
American - Trent 1000
United - Trent 1000
KLM - GEnx
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thepilot730
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:44 pm

Forgot to add CO to your list. They have ordered the GEnx engines.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:11 pm

Quoting Thepilot730 (Reply 1):
Forgot to add CO to your list. They have ordered the GEnx engines.

Yes, I know CO selected GEnx. I only listed the ones who have NOT made their engine selection.
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:20 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Primaris - Trent 1000
Vietnam - Trent 1000

Are your sure about these airlines and their engine choices? According to
wikipedia, engines choices for these two at least have NOT been made.
My own personal opinion is both of these particular carriers will choose the GenX, although it's just specualtion on my part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787

Also, by their count, GenX is the market leader with 94 firm orders versus 85 for the Trent 1000.

Regards,
Sal

EDITED for typos.

[Edited 2005-12-19 05:29:13]
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trex8
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:27 pm

why would UA order RR when they haven't had any planes with RR engines for decades if ever!
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:29 pm

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 4):
why would UA order RR when they haven't had any planes with RR engines for decades if ever!

Cuz UA still hasn't gotten over the Sioux City DC10 crash... They've hated GE since.
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scbriml
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Primaris - Trent 1000

I'll eat my hat if a Primaris 787 ever flies. yes 
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Captain.MD-11
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:55 pm

I would love to see UA go for the RR option, but to (possibly) hold a grudge against GE for something that was a one-off and happened in the 80's seems a little harsh.Both GE and RR make exceptional engines, isn't the CF6 the most common/popular/reliable turbo-fan out there?

Why would Delta choose GEnx? Wouldn't RR be in with a shout due to the trents on the 777's and their RB211 experiences on the L1011?
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kiwiandrew

RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:58 pm

GA has Trent powered A330s already - so they might go with the Trent option rather than the GE
 
gkirk
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:00 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 6):
I'll eat my hat if a Primaris 787 ever flies. yes


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757 flying, 787 soon?
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krisyyz
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:01 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Current orders:
Blue Panorama - GEnx
Primaris - Trent 1000
Vietnam - Trent 1000
Chinese carriers - ???
Ethiopian - GEnx
Icelandair - GEnx
Garuda Indonesia - GEnx
ILFC - Trent 1000
Qantas - ???

AC went for GEnx as well for its 14 firm options, Which makes sense since they ordered B773ER, 772LRs which only come with GE90s. The only RR powered aircraft in ACs fleet are the A333, A345s both of which are leaving ACs fleet in the next 5 years or so.

krisyyz
 
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scbriml
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:24 am

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 9):
757 flying, 787 soon?

Flying one (I believe) leased 757 is a very long stretch from owning 20 787s (not to mention 20 737s). Considering their committment to the 787 was amongst the first announced, firming up of their order is taking a rather long time. Indeed as far as I'm aware, Primaris has still not even been allocated a Boeing customer number.

I think my hat is safe! wink 
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Glom
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:47 am

Don't UA have 737NGs? How could they avoid GE? Maybe they'll delay until the next ice age when PW have a 787 offering.
 
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:59 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 12):
Don't UA have 737NGs?

No.
 
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:01 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 4):
why would UA order RR when they haven't had any planes with RR engines for decades if ever!

Dunno. Why did NW? Why did LOT?
 
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:10 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Current orders:
Blue Panorama - GEnx
Primaris - Trent 1000
Vietnam - Trent 1000
Chinese carriers - ???
Ethiopian - GEnx
Icelandair - GEnx
Garuda Indonesia - GEnx
ILFC - Trent 1000
Qantas - ???

Potentail future orders:
Delta - GEnx
American - Trent 1000
United - Trent 1000
KLM - GEnx

Vietnam have PW and GE 777s and 767s. Seems unlikely to me that they'd buy RR.

The backbone of Icelandair's fleet is the 757 and their planes all have RR. I'd give RR the edge here.

ILFC have tended to buy all engine variants (on the 777, for example) but they tend to buy GE first and most.

Garuda could go either way but they chose RR for their A330s so who knows?

Quoting Captain.MD-11 (Reply 7):
Why would Delta choose GEnx? Wouldn't RR be in with a shout due to the trents on the 777's?

DL certainly chose RR for their 777s but there are other factors. DL is close to AF and they're pathological about not buying RR. On their own side of the Atlantic DL have links to CO (who've chosen GE) and NW (who've chosen RR). KE (a SkyTeam partner) has also chosen GE and DL's later orders for the 767 were all for GE. Who knows, but I'd put my money on GE winning that one.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:12 am

Quoting PM (Reply 15):
DL certainly chose RR for their 777s but there are other factors. ..... On their own side of the Atlantic DL have links to CO (who've chosen GE) and NW (who've chosen RR).

I guess it depends who ends up absorbing DL - if NW then RR if CO then GE  stirthepot 
 
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting PM (Reply 15):
DL certainly chose RR for their 777s but there are other factors. DL is close to AF and they're pathological about not buying RR. On their own side of the Atlantic DL have links to CO (who've chosen GE) and NW (who've chosen RR). KE (a SkyTeam partner) has also chosen GE and DL's later orders for the 767 were all for GE. Who knows, but I'd put my money on GE winning that one.

Who know what will happen if the fantasized merger of NW and DL ever comes to pass. I doubt what European Skyteam members desire will play much of a role anyway. After all they aren't going to sync fleets, so why should they sync engine selections.
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Glom
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:22 am

Quoting PM (Reply 13):
No.

Then what do they have?
 
blrsea
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:34 am

I believe AI too went in for GE engines for both the 777 and 787 orders which are awaiting approval from the govt.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:37 am

Quoting Captain.MD-11 (Reply 7):
Why would Delta choose GEnx? Wouldn't RR be in with a shout due to the trents on the 777's and their RB211 experiences on the L1011?

Umm, because GE is a major financer of Delta Air Lines DIP...

Id look for future leases to come from GECAS and feature GE engines...

just a hunch.
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:51 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 12):
Don't UA have 737NGs?



Quoting PM (Reply 13):
No.



Quoting Glom (Reply 18):
Then what do they have?

Sorry if I was a bit abrupt. They have 737-500s and -300s but nothing bigger or newer than that. Their newest 737-500 is 13 years old. Their newest 737-300 is 15 years old. In other words, UA haven't taken delivery of a 737 since December 1992. They started taking delivery of A320s in 1993 and of A319s in 1997.
 
Glom
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:13 am

Quoting PM (Reply 21):
They started taking delivery of A320s in 1993 and of A319s in 1997.

They went Airbus like BA? Do they use RR then? That gives credence to the notion of the Trent 1000 for them.
 
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:03 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 22):
They went Airbus like BA? Do they use RR then? That gives credence to the notion of the Trent 1000 for them.

They "went" long before BA did! And if by "RR" you mean IAE (in which RR has a 1/3 stake), then yes. But remember that IAE is also 1/3 owned by PW and that PW are (were?) UA's inevitable source of engines (wherever there was a choice) and that's no doubt why IAE got the A319/320 business. Now, with PW no longer playing, which way will UA jump when they order 787s or A350s (as they must inevitably do one day)?

Quoting PM (Reply 21):
UA haven't taken delivery of a 737 since December 1992.

Following up my own slightly startling discovery, it turns out that UA last ordered 737s on 26th April 1989. They ordered -200s three times (a total of 75) in 1965, 1966 and 1967. They ordered -300s (101) once - in 1985 and -500s (57) once - in 1989. I suppose I assumed they had ordered 737s many times and oft over the years. Apparently not.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:35 am

I'd expect Delta to choose GE because of the financing that GE is providing them. In addition, their 767-400ERs are GE powered.
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dkny
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:03 pm

When did ET choose the GEnex for the 787?
 
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:11 pm

Quoting Dkny (Reply 25):
When did ET choose the GEnex for the 787?

That's what I also thought... I do not recall seeing a release with GEnex for ET. ET has always been a PW customer, until its purchase of the 73Ws which only come with CFMs.
 
dalb777
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:18 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 24):
I'd expect Delta to choose GE because of the financing that GE is providing them. In addition, their 767-400ERs are GE powered.

Why did DL choose RR for their 777s?
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qutaiba
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:27 pm

GE engines are superior to all others in the market, I know this form my experience, and where operations in the local extremly harsh environment has proven this.

if the other engine makers do not significantly discout their prices, and provide guarantees and customer support to reduce both the financial and maintenace burdens on the owner, then GE will be a better and more economicla engine over a certain ownership duration.
When the tide comes in, all ships will rise
 
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:45 pm

Quoting Qutaiba (Reply 28):
GE engines are superior to all others in the market

Mmm, not sure that everyone would always agree with that. It does seem a bit sweeping!
 
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:03 pm

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 19):
I believe AI too went in for GE engines for both the 777 and 787 orders which are awaiting approval from the govt.

AI had to choose GE-90's for the 777-200LR and 777-300ER and it made sense to stick with GE for the 787 also.
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qutaiba
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:25 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 29):
Mmm, not sure that everyone would always agree with that. It does seem a bit sweeping!

well thats based on experience as I said, and where other engines last 3500-4000 hrs on wing, the CF6 & GE90 stay on average 7000-8000 hrs. So it pays for a harsh (very hot & dry) operation.
When the tide comes in, all ships will rise
 
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:53 pm

Quoting Dkny (Reply 25):
When did ET choose the GEnex for the 787?

ET haven't announced a selection yet. The thread-starter was speculating.

Quoting Qutaiba (Reply 31):
where other engines last 3500-4000 hrs on wing, the CF6 & GE90 stay on average 7000-8000 hrs.

Not, it seems, in every case. BA had awful troubles with their GE90s at first and then switched to RR Trent 800s.

But I'm not knocking GE engines. The CF6 has been a massive success and although the GE90 wasn't the most popular engine on the first generation of 777s it seems to have hit its stride on the 777-300ER. I'm just calling into question the blanket statement:

Quoting Qutaiba (Reply 28):
GE engines are superior to all others in the market

That simply beggars belief. If that were so, airlines would never buy PW or RR. And it simply won't do to suggest that these companies can only gain sales by discounting.

Quoting Qutaiba (Reply 31):
well thats based on experience as I said

Your experience, maybe, and I'm hardly in a position to question that. I'm sure you believe what you say. But the bigger picture surely suggests that many airlines are less persuaded of the inevitable inherent superiority of GE engines. Just one concrete example: for all its success elsewhere, the CF6 is the least popular engine on the A330.
 
cricket
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:57 pm

Quoting Qutaiba (Reply 28):
GE engines are superior to all others in the market, I know this form my experience, and where operations in the local extremly harsh environment has proven this.

GE Engines are also extremely expensive. Plus, if GE engines were really that awesome for climatic conditions in places like West and South Asia, they haven't particularly done very well. EK's initial 777's were all RR.
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:06 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 33):
EK's initial 777's were all RR.

And when KQ chose RR for their 772ERs they specifically said it was because of their better hot & high performance.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:32 am

Quoting Dalb777 (Reply 27):
Why did DL choose RR for their 777s?

That was before Delta got the financing from GE. Also, the newer 767-300ERs have GE engines. While the only options for the 767-400ER were GE and PW, the 767-300ER had RR as an option.
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ETStar
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:13 am

Here's confirmation that ET has chosen GEnx

http://www.flyethiopian.com/et/news/report.aspx?nid=114
 
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:09 am

Well, while the Trent 1000 will be featured on the 787's first flight and took an early lead in engine sales, it looks like the GenX is now the market leader with 104 firm orders versus 85 for the Trent 1000. You can bet that the Qantas Engine Selection order will be just as interesting as the competition between the 787 and A350.

Regards,
Sal
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
flyabr
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting PM (Reply 14):
Dunno. Why did NW? Why did LOT?

uh...don't know about LOT, but NW chose the GENx...
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:39 am

Quoting FlyABR (Reply 38):
but NW chose the GENx...

No, NW chose the Trent. They were actually widely expected to order the GEnx, but suprised everyone by chosing the Trent.
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flyabr
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:05 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 39):
No, NW chose the Trent. They were actually widely expected to order the GEnx, but suprised everyone by chosing the Trent.

my bad...saw press release on rolls web page...
 
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:41 am

TAM have ordered GE to power their A350's

By Andrea Rothman
Jan. 2 (Bloomberg) -- General Electric Co., the world's biggest maker of jet engines, was chosen by TAM SA, Brazil's second-biggest airline, to provide engines for 10 Airbus SAS A350 planes ordered last month.


More available via TAMs website

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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jetset7e7
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RE: Engine Selection Of Current And Future 787 Orders

Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:06 pm

You forgot to mention First Chioce, they have selected the GEnx for their 787's

Mark

[Edited 2006-01-03 12:06:55]
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