thegreatchecko
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:34 pm

MDW Runway Arresters

Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:12 pm

Is it true that MDW doesn't have enough room for the concrete arresting devices (if thats what they are called) like the City of Chicago has been saying?

I wonder because FLL has that system installed at the end of RWY 27R, with just about the same amount of room, maybe less. Right up against the runway is the perimeter road, then I-95, not much room for error and in my opinion very necessary.

I'm thinking MDW has plenty of room for these to be installed at the ends of the two longer runways.

Pictures for your examination....


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Photo © Jose Ramos
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Photo © Paul Morley



GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:41 pm

As you can see from some of the installations depicted here, some are not very long and you'd think they could squeeze them into MDW...

http://www.esco-usa.com/com/instal.html
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
thegreatchecko
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:34 pm

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:11 pm

EMAS!!!

I knew it had a cool acronym. Thanks for the pics!

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
ba757
Posts: 2707
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:33 pm

How do these arrestor beds work? I know it says they are concrete, but are they soft? Hard?

If they are solid, how come the aircraft doesn't just run over them, where does the grip come from?

Adam
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:02 pm

Quoting BA757 (Reply 3):
If they are solid, how come the aircraft doesn't just run over them, where does the grip come from?

The simpliest thing, I think, is to think of that "solid" as having the consistency of piece of blackboard chalk. Yes, it's a solid, but it can't carry the weight of an aircraft, and it crumbles when an aircraft's weight is applied.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
thegreatchecko
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:34 pm

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:15 pm

The plane basically breaks through the surface. Its technically not just concrete, its an "engineered material." It provides a massive amount of resistance, slowing the aircraft down (usually collapsing the nose gear).

There is a video somewhere of an FAA test where they put a 727 into it. Pretty impressive if you ask me.

GreatChecko

PS Anyone have a clue as to why this is "impossible" at MDW?
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
ba757
Posts: 2707
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:43 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 4):
The simpliest thing, I think, is to think of that "solid" as having the consistency of piece of blackboard chalk. Yes, it's a solid, but it can't carry the weight of an aircraft, and it crumbles when an aircraft's weight is applied.



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 5):
The plane basically breaks through the surface. Its technically not just concrete, its an "engineered material." It provides a massive amount of resistance, slowing the aircraft down (usually collapsing the nose gear).

Thank you guys!

Adam
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:21 pm

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 5):
The plane basically breaks through the surface. Its technically not just concrete, its an "engineered material." It provides a massive amount of resistance, slowing the aircraft down (usually collapsing the nose gear).

Similar in principle to the stuff used in over-run areas on some road-race courses (think CART, F1, etc.)

Or... if you've ever seen them... to run-away truck ramps placed at the bottom of mountains on highways.
 
airportplan
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:36 am

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:29 am

Several years ago the City of Chicago did a study to see if EMAS would work at MDW. EMAS was not installed because there is only 80 feet distance between the end of the pavement on 31C and the fence. Several hundred feet are required for EMAS to stop an aircraft. There is a similar situation at the other runway ends so EMAS would not be a viable option within the current airport boundaries. That is why the airport has been quietly purchasing land at some of the runway ends in case the FAA mandates 1000 foot safety zones or EMAS.
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7795
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:34 am

I head Mayor Daily was going to bring in Bulldozers one night soon and tear up the runways again. Start to look for Southwest to begin flying into ORD soon..!!
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
leelaw
Posts: 4520
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):
I head Mayor Daily was going to bring in Bulldozers one night soon and tear up the runways again.



Not even remotely possible since the Daley Administration has poured hundreds of millions of dollars into improving the airport in the past ten years.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
airportplan
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:36 am

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:18 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):
I head Mayor Daily was going to bring in Bulldozers one night soon and tear up the runways again. Start to look for Southwest to begin flying into ORD soon..!!

Although the City of Chicago has purchased some property at the MDW runway ends because of the cost of tunnels for the roadways, railroad relocation and home purchases which safety zone or EMAS would require. It would take hundreds of millions of dollars to make all of this happen. The city will not add either of these options unless they are mandated to do so by the FAA. The city is betting that this will not happen anytime soon because there are so many other airports in the U.S. such as Reagan Nation in DC who's runways also do not meet standards. At Nation you would have to do landfill in the Potomac River to make it compliant. Basically it not going to happen anytime soon.
 
KarlB737
Posts: 2632
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:00 am

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Thread starter):
Is it true that MDW doesn't have enough room for the concrete arresting devices

Courtesy: WBBM-TV

Analysis Shows Space At Midway To Install Safety Zone

Video Report:

http://cbs2chicago.com/video/?id=18914@wbbm.dayport.com
 
thegreatchecko
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:34 pm

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:30 am

Is it just me, or does the City of Chicago have any clue what they are doing?

-Meigs Field
-No space for EMAS

You know, if the company that made this product was one of Daley's cronies, I bet they would have installed these years ago.

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7795
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:52 am

Does any one remember a Learjet run off in the mid 1970's...?? The jet failed to stop and went through the fence..? I remember being in Chicago visiting family and later learned my Uncle pulled one of the passengers from the plane.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
rlwynn
Posts: 1105
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:35 am

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:21 am

SNA needs one. It would be bad news if a plane overran the runway and fell down on the 73.
I can drive faster than you
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:50 am

SAN needs one!

And no this message is not too short....
Tailwinds!!!
 
APFPilot1985
Posts: 1840
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:51 pm

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:54 am

I'm pretty sure that FLL doesnt have it on the side the bumps up against 95
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vegasplanes
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:22 pm

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:25 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 16):
SAN needs one!

That would be Harbor Drive for the 9.  Wink
 
stlgph
Posts: 8929
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:04 pm

MDW can support EMAS. EMAS for a 737/A320 is 275' long including the 75' ramp. At each end of the runway is a 200' blast pad and the localizers have a 50' set back and another 25' to the fenceline. Just enough without any loss of runway.

Runway length is gained because when a non standard safety area exists, the amount of the required 1,000' safety area that is not provided is subtracted from the actual length of the runway when doing performance calculations. Meaning, the roughly 6,500' runway at MDW is only about 5,700' when performing landing calculations. This will extend the distance available to the runway full potential.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:53 pm

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 5):
Anyone have a clue as to why this is "impossible" at MDW?

Simply Daley's latest fodder for ORD expansion.
DMI
 
stlgph
Posts: 8929
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: MDW Runway Arresters

Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting Rlwynn (Reply 15):
SNA needs one. It would be bad news if a plane overran the runway and fell down on the 73.

SNA has 1,000' RSA's and does not need one.

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 16):
SAN needs one!

San Diego (SAN) actually needs two of them and is getting one next year for RWY 27. The FAA is evaluating runway 9 and doing so will cut SAN's runway down about 400' at the East end because it would have to support a 767. Its more likely SAN will be getting a secondary single runway airport as a suppliment to SAN because Miramar is not on the table, and they would remove a total of 1,700' to return SAN to pre 1978 runway length of 8,400' with about 6,600' landing to get rid of obstruction issues (displacing runway 27 another 1,000'). It was waivered when the jet age came in. This would effectively limit the type of aircraft used to 737/A320's forcing most carriers to a new facility. San Diego has to take what they can get in terms of a new airport. If they can't get a new two runway facility, they need to get another single runway airport (perhaps East Miramar or North County). Not the same as Dallas as San Diego would actually "require" the two airports to meet demand and the airports would work in tandem.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport

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