DIA
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Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:01 am

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q1/nr_050126i.html

I noticed this Boeing post...which made me wonder why TG is placing orders for both, the 772 and the A345/6. Why not go with one only? Benefits?

I thought they were trying to streamline their a/c family.
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KL808
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:05 am

Well one of the reasons is ETOPS.

Thats why they went with the A340's.

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anxebla
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:33 am

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
why TG is placing orders for both, the 772 and the A345/6. Why not go with one only? Benefits?

From Boeing.com/news: The airplanes will feature a tri-class configuration and be powered by Rolls-Royce Trent-892B engines.

Please, note RR will be the engine for both, 777-200ER and 340NG
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garpd
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:38 am

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
I noticed this Boeing post...which made me wonder why TG is placing orders for both, the 772 and the A345/6. Why not go with one only? Benefits

A mix of politics and price. Of course, ETOPS is also a consideration, but I bet Politics outweighs it.
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persotvik
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:43 am

Finally we will see TG on the OSL-BKK route with the B777 Wink
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CX Flyboy
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:54 am

Rumours are that Thai is looking to defer their 777 deliveries. Anyone heard anything about this?
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:03 am

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 5):
Rumours are that Thai is looking to defer their 777 deliveries.

Just the opposite, actually. When Thai originally announced their order last year, they stated that the 777's would begin arriving mid-2007. As the press release above, and the production schedule states, the first frames will actually be arriving by August of next year.

Of course, it is Thai, and we may see another change.

Regards,

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6thfreedom
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:56 pm

Quoting Persotvik (Reply 4):
Finally we will see TG on the OSL-BKK route with the B777

MEL will also get the B777 from September 2006.
5pw operating as TG981/982.

BKK 00.15
MEL 12.05
MEL 16.30
BKK 22.40

The B777 will replace the A346 which will operate the obove sector Jan to sept 2006.
 
ROP
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:05 pm

More aircraft types, more maintenaince work&cost and yes more cakes to be shared...
 
lehpron
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:09 pm

Is it possible these two planes do not entirely compete, despite what either company would claim about the other plane?
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Lemurs
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:01 pm

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 9):
Is it possible these two planes do not entirely compete, despite what either company would claim about the other plane?

Given how few carriers out there operate both types, I don't think it's going out on a limb to say: "No, it is not really plausible." (Anything is *possible* of course, plausible is another story.)
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aviasian
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:07 pm

With these latest deliveries, TG will operate a fleet consisting:

- Boeing 747-400
- Boeing 747-300
- Boeing 777-200
- Boeing 777-200ER
- Boeing 777-300
- Boeing MD-11
- Boeing 737-400
- Airbus A300-600
- Airbus A330-300
- Airbus A340-500
- Airbus A340-600
- ATR72
- A380-800 (to be delivered in 2007).

Perhaps when one factors in the engine choices, it is yet another story altogether. Traditionally, TG seems to have several aircraft types too many in its inventory . . . on one hand, one could call this a fleet with types that are specifically tailored to individual routes . . . on the other hand, it can be branded as being too diverse and costly to maintain. Then again, there are probably reasons for this diversity - as alluded to by ROP in reply no. 8.

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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:59 pm

Thai has historically had ETOPS problems and as far as I'm aware, voluntarily withdrew their ETOPS certificates for their 777's some time back. Perhaps this is also a consideration for purchase of a 4 engine aircraft.
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scbriml
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:15 pm

Quoting GARPD (Reply 3):
A mix of politics and price. Of course, ETOPS is also a consideration, but I bet Politics outweighs it.

Enquiring minds would like to know what these political considerations might be. Thanks.  wink 
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Nimish
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:36 pm

Slightly off topic, but I've flown only on their 345s and 346s (not the 777s). It was a magnificient experience, with the 36" of pitch (on the 345, and 34" on the 346), huge screens with full AVOD, and the lighting. Managed to sleep for 11 of the 18 hour flight (LAX-BKK), would definitely repeat that if I need to.
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garpd
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:50 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 13):

Enquiring minds would like to know what these political considerations might be. Thanks

something about trade deficits and load of fish.
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scbriml
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:30 pm

Quoting GARPD (Reply 15):
something about trade deficits and load of fish.

Are you suggesting Thai only bought Airbus planes because of political pressure? In that case, I think you may have the wrong end of the stick - the Thai Government threatened not to sign the deal unless the EU reduced import tariffs on Thai prawns. So yes, politics, but pressure from Thailand not the EU!

Quote:
A major aircraft deal between Thailand and European consortium Airbus is likely to go ahead despite threats of a delay by the Thai government blamed on political grandstanding ahead of national elections, analysts said.

Thai premier Thaksin Shinawatra said Tuesday that
national flag carrier Thai Airways International would delay signing a purchase agreement for eight Airbus aircraft, including six A380 superjumbos, while demanding that the European Union ease trade rules covering Thailand's shrimp, poultry and farm products.

The Thai cabinet had approved the 96.3 billion baht (2.4 billion dollars) deal to buy 14 aircraft for the national carrier, to be split between rival manufacturers Boeing and the European consortium Airbus, but it rejected a cash-only deal.

Analysts said, however, that the Airbus deal was on the verge of being completed and the delay threat was for the benefit of a domestic audience ahead of a Thaksin re-election bid expected in February next year".
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PM
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:43 pm

Thai were an early customer for both the A330-300 and for the 777-200 so they already operate family members from each line. They ordered 777-200ERs and A345/346s at much the same time. They are different aircraft for different jobs. The 777-200ER doesn't have the range of the A345 or the capacity of the A346. Had they started from scratch, they might have tried to manage with just one of the A330/340 or 777 families but once they already had both it wasn't such an odd decision to add further members of each family.
 
cricket
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:44 pm

Maybe TG gets inspiration for its long-haul fleet planning from EK  Silly
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
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garpd
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:28 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 16):
Are you suggesting Thai only bought Airbus planes because of political pressure?

No, what I was doing is answering a question as to why Thai have BOTH the 777 and A340.
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dennys
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:00 am

where did you see TG is ordering some more A340s ?

regards

dennys
 
DIA
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:14 am

Quoting Dennys (Reply 20):
where did you see TG is ordering some more A340s ?

I guess I'm assuming TG has some A345s or A346s still to be delivered...don't they?
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UALMMFlyer
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:11 am

Thai needs to simplify its fleet type to cut cost. It currently operates a mix fleet with mixed engine types:

MD-11
744
743
734
772
773
A300-600
A330
A345
A346
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DIA
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:21 am

What TG routes use four-holers due to ETOPS constraints?

Apparently enough to justify an A340 family?!
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DIA
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:25 am

Okay...I guess it just seems that for the size airline that TG is...they have too many types of a/c. It seems to me they could streamline and become even more profitable. There it is...on the table.

And, they'll probably add one more: the 787 or the A350.

Just seems a bit of an odd business model.
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:34 am

And, they'll probably add one more: the 787 or the A350.

Why not both?  Smile

The 787-3 would be a good replacement for their A300s...and the -9 for the A330s.
 
DIA
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:38 am

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 25):
Why not both?

Exactly.

BTW: Like your name...it reminds me of seeing them at Kai Tak, amidst many 747 and L1011 tails...
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ZK-NBT
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:13 pm

Quoting Dennys (Reply 20):
where did you see TG is ordering some more A340s ?

The title is misleading, the date on that article is January 2005.



Quoting PM (Reply 17):
The 777-200ER doesn't have the range of the A345 or the capacity of the A346.

Careful, the 346 seats 267 in a 3 class configuration for TG, I think I read that the 772ER will seat 309 in a 2 class configuration, or was that the reconfigured regional 772A's?

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 7):
MEL will also get the B777 from September 2006.
5pw operating as TG981/982.

I find it surprising that they would drop F on that MEL service, maybe split MEL and SYD TG993/994 and offer a 2 class service on an evening service BKK-MEL-BKK operating 3-4 times weekly and increasing TG981/982 to daily with a 3 class service, offering daily connections to Europe.

The 743 and MD11 will be phased out soon.
 
anxebla
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:07 pm

Quoting GARPD (Reply 19):
why Thai have BOTH the 777 and A340.

I think this one could be a good reply:

Quoting PM (Reply 17):
They are different aircraft for different jobs. The 777-200ER doesn't have the range of the A345 or the capacity of the A346.

Furthermore Rolls-Royce will be the engine for both, 777-200ER and 340NG

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 27):
Careful, the 346 seats 267 in a 3 class configuration for TG, I think I read that the 772ER will seat 309 in a 2 class configuration,

So what? A SQ A345 has 181 seats and the new Air Asia's A320 will have 180 seats. I can't understand your argument. Anyhow, the A346/B772 size is not the same. The 772ER does NOT compete with an A346
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6thfreedom
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:04 am

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 27):
I find it surprising that they would drop F on that MEL service, maybe split MEL and SYD TG993/994 and offer a 2 class service on an evening service BKK-MEL-BKK operating 3-4 times weekly and increasing TG981/982 to daily with a 3 class service, offering daily connections to Europe.

The MEL product will stay 3 class.
The B772ER's will be 3 class with 292 seats.

I think you may also find the TG993/994 service split in late 2006, with both MEL and SYD getting terminators.

More than likely MEL-BKK will become 12pw non-stop, with SYD-BKK at 14 pw, all operated with B772ERs.

As I've mentioned previously, the biggest problem with this is that at 22.30 SYD-BKK departure results in an undesirable 03.30/04.30 arrival.
 
Rj111
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:55 am

Assuming the 743's and Md-11's won't be around too much longer you're looking at....

737 CFM56
744 CF6-80
A330/A340 PW4000/Trent 500
777 Trent 800
A300 CF6-80

Which is pretty good really, 5 families and 4 engines offering a variety of aircraft each with their own strengths and roles.

The only thing that seems strange to me is why they chose PW4000's on the A333's, they could have got CF6-80, or Trents. Although the Trents where introduced with the A330's.
 
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:12 am

Quoting Anxebla (Reply 28):
Furthermore Rolls-Royce will be the engine for both, 777-200ER and 340NG

Hmmm! what is a 340NG??
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anxebla
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:21 pm

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 30):
Which is pretty good really, 5 families and 4 engines offering a variety of aircraft each with their own strengths and roles.

Yes, you're right. That's my point.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 31):
Hmmm! what is a 340NG??

An A-340NG "new generation" is another way to designate the -500 and -600 series
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ZK-NBT
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:55 pm

Quoting Anxebla (Reply 28):
So what? A SQ A345 has 181 seats and the new Air Asia's A320 will have 180 seats. I can't understand your argument. Anyhow, the A346/B772 size is not the same. The 772ER does NOT compete with an A346

My argument was the fact that TG's 772ER's and 346's will both be 3 class and the 772ER will seat more, kind of strange if you ask me.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 29):
The MEL product will stay 3 class.
The B772ER's will be 3 class with 292 seats.

Ah ok thats interesting, good though, I wouldn't think they would drop F to MEL.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 29):
More than likely MEL-BKK will become 12pw non-stop, with SYD-BKK at 14 pw, all operated with B772ERs.

I'd say TG995/996 ex SYD will still be a 744 myself. Could be wrong though. We'll soon see.
 
anxebla
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:21 pm

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 33):
My argument was the fact that TG's 772ER's and 346's will both be 3 class and the 772ER will seat more, kind of strange if you ask me.

3 ..or 2 class?

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 27):
the 346 seats 267 in a 3 class configuration for TG, I think I read that the 772ER will seat 309 in a 2 class configuration

 Big grin
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Rj111
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:43 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 30):
The only thing that seems strange to me is why they chose PW4000's on the A333's, they could have got CF6-80, or Trents. Although the Trents where introduced with the A330's.

Just to correct myself there i meant the Trents where introduced with the 772A, which arrived after the A333's.
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 33):
I'd say TG995/996 ex SYD will still be a 744 myself. Could be wrong though. We'll soon see.

It is B744 for now, but I think that when TG de-link MEL and SYD, they will move to B772ER for all MEL and SYD ops.

Makes sense from a crewing perspective + capacity, if you consider that previously 14pw B744 was shared with AKL and MEL. If you count 50% for SYD, that's only 389 seats per day. With a non-stop B744 BKK-SYD that's 389 + 195 = 584 seats.

But if you then go to daily B744 and daily B777ER, that's 681 seats per day. Almost double capacity!
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:53 am

Quoting Anxebla (Reply 34):
3 ..or 2 class?

3 class.

6th Freedom corrected me on reply 27, the 772ER's will be 3 class seating 292.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 36):
Makes sense from a crewing perspective + capacity, if you consider that previously 14pw B744 was shared with AKL and MEL. If you count 50% for SYD, that's only 389 seats per day. With a non-stop B744 BKK-SYD that's 389 + 195 = 584 seats.

Understood, we'll wait and see what happens.

AKL may get the 772ER's then aswell?
 
anxebla
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:08 am

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 37):
6th Freedom corrected me on reply 27, the 772ER's will be 3 class seating 292.

OK, anyhow the A346/B772 size is not the same  Wink Different planes for different missions/roles.
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ZK-NBT
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:15 am

Quoting Anxebla (Reply 38):
OK, anyhow the A346/B772 size is not the same Different planes for different missions/roles.

I agree that they are for different missions and roles but then again this is TG we are talking about.
 
PM
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RE: Thai Airways Ordering New A340s & 777s...why Both?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:55 pm

After all this, why haven't the six 777-200ERs appeared yet in Boeing's planned production schedule? Two are due for delivery in 2006 and the other four in 2007.

And another question: With Trent 500s and 800s in service, is it too much to expect that TG will stay with RR for their A380s?