mham001
Posts: 4287
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:02 am

As reported in Suddeutsche Zeitung

GERMANY

Saturday, December 17, 2005

The time frame for the A380 is becoming more and more uncertain as
evacuation tests for the A380 have been postponed again. The factor
wind was not incorporated in the planning for the evacuation tests,
which were originally planned for November. It is questionable whether
Airbus will be able to keep promises to its customers, anyway, because
the A380 is still eleven tons too heavy and fuel consumption will
presumably be 14 percent higher than anticipated. Lufthansa has changed
its calculations from 2.9 to 3.3 liter per seat kilometer. (Süddeutsche
Zeitung - Ind, Ph)
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:06 am

Does that short article have a source for it's information?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
WINGS
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:11 am

Quoting Mham001 (Thread starter):

The time frame for the A380 is becoming more and more uncertain as
evacuation tests for the A380 have been postponed again. The factor
wind was not incorporated in the planning for the evacuation tests,
which were originally planned for November. It is questionable whether
Airbus will be able to keep promises to its customers, anyway, because
the A380 is still eleven tons too heavy and fuel consumption will
presumably be 14 percent higher than anticipated. Lufthansa has changed
its calculations from 2.9 to 3.3 liter per seat kilometer. (Süddeutsche
Zeitung - Ind, Ph)

My Oh My.
When will all the A380 conspiracy end. I just posted an Update of the A380 Flight test program from a very reliable source, Flight International. Now we are presented with this article, which basically states the opposite.

Can any of our German Member enlighten us all if this article is from a credible source?

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
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Revelation
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:12 am

Let's hope this information is inaccurate, for if it is not, it would be a severe blow to the A380 program. Missing the fuel target by 14%, in particular, is not acceptable!
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
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garpd
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:12 am

Strange article.

The Sueddeutsche Zeitung doesn't strike me as the most clued up rag when it comes to aviation matters.
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Danny
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:15 am

Quoting Mham001 (Thread starter):
Saturday, December 17, 2005

The time frame for the A380 is becoming more and more uncertain as
evacuation tests for the A380 have been postponed again. The factor
wind was not incorporated in the planning for the evacuation tests,
which were originally planned for November. It is questionable whether
Airbus will be able to keep promises to its customers, anyway, because
the A380 is still eleven tons too heavy and fuel consumption will
presumably be 14 percent higher than anticipated. Lufthansa has changed
its calculations from 2.9 to 3.3 liter per seat kilometer.

Looks like astonishing example of journalist incompetence.
 
Rj111
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:17 am

I don't think even Airbus are capable of missing fuel burn targets by 14%
 
jush
Posts: 1495
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:18 am

Well were to start.
I searched sueddeutsche.de for that article and i found one article about a postponed evacuation test. I cannot access this article cause i'm not registered pay-member there. So maybe another member has access.

I certainly find it strange cause if i remember correctly Airbus reported that the A380 is doing better than expected in terms of fuel consumption. 14% higher?
Who said that...

Quoting Mham001 (Thread starter):
The factor
wind was not incorporated in the planning for the evacuation tests,

So what's that supposed to mean? Factor wind? Sounds strange to me.
Or does it have to do something with the slides ar blown in the air????

I'm really eager to read the real article. But until then i highly doubt the figures mentioned above.

EDIT: Found this article via google but i don't think it's a highly trustable source. Anyway it reports problem with the slides from the upper decks.
Article only in German but don't forget i think it's a doubtful source.
http://www.han-online.de/HANArticleP...fd9ac870d300d500b700c10031513308a4

Regds
jush

[Edited 2005-12-20 16:22:04]
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:23 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 5):

Looks like astonishing example of journalist incompetence.

You may very well be correct...but at least back up your opinion with at least some reasoning.

Anyway, I trust Flight International more than I would a general newspaper on these matters. The Sueddeutsche Zeitung is not a bad newspaper though if I remember correctly.
 
Danny
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:31 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 8):
You may very well be correct...but at least back up your opinion with at least some reasoning.

They should back up their statement about 14% higher fuel consumption.

Reasoning for my opinion is simple. Airbus itself reported A380 fuel performance better than expected. How come local newspaper got it 14% higher huh?
 
mham001
Posts: 4287
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:37 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 9):
They should back up their statement about 14% higher fuel consumption.

Reasoning for my opinion is simple. Airbus itself reported A380 fuel performance better than expected. How come local newspaper got it 14% higher huh?

Looks like they are using a Lufthansa source.
 
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garpd
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:41 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 9):
They should back up their statement about 14% higher fuel consumption.

Reasoning for my opinion is simple. Airbus itself reported A380 fuel performance better than expected. How come local newspaper got it 14% higher huh?

After the SQ debacle, its clear you must take a pinch of salt when reading what Airbus say re the A380 program.

I'm not saying this 14% figure is true, but I certainly would not be surprised if Airbus had "stretched" the truth when say they found the fuel consumption to be better than expected.
arpdesign.wordpress.com
 
PlaneDane
Posts: 347
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 2):
My Oh My.
When will all the A380 conspiracy end.

Conspiracy? Where is the conspiracy, WINGS? Who is orchestrating this conspiracy that you have identified? What is their motive? What do they hope to accomplish? Please, give us your information.

Otherwise, it just seems like yet another article we can choose to believe or not and nothing more.

Quoting Danny (Reply 5):
Looks like astonishing example of journalist incompetence.

Danny, could you provide us with links to information that refutes what is being claimed in this article? If you could do that for us it would greatly help.
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3671
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:49 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 5):
2.9 to 3.3 liter per seat kilometer.

This is a prove the writer of this article has no clue what he's writing about. Even the fuel born of Concorde was like a factor 100 below 3.3 liter per seat kilometer. He probably meant 3.3 liter per kilometer.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:51 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 9):
They should back up their statement about 14% higher fuel consumption.

Reasoning for my opinion is simple. Airbus itself reported A380 fuel performance better than expected. How come local newspaper got it 14% higher huh?

Back up with what? It is a mass-circulation newspaper and not an engineering journal. They are general reporting information for public consumption.

The role of the media is not to accept the public statements of politicians, businesses, and so on at face value. Airbus is not a newspaper and their duty is to make money to their shareholders. Part of their job includes media relations which is not the same thing as reporting the news.

Come on, you know all of that.
 
NYC777
Posts: 5076
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:59 am

Well the proof wll be in the pudding when all is said and done:

Separation - ICAO will make it's final recommendations mid next year based on test along with Airbus, Eurocontrol, and the FAA. Remember safety will be paramount for all involved

Fuel burn - forget what a newspaper or Airbus says the actual fuel burn will be. The airlines will fly them with passengers in real world conditions and the fuel burn will either be what Airbus promised or it'll be higher.

Weight - I believe that it is widely known that the A380s final configuration as built came in overweight.

Evac tests - These test have to be carried out at some point. No one, except Airbus, knows why it's trully been delayed but prior to this plane carrying passenger no. 1 these test have to be done and done to the satisfactions to the appropriate regulatory agencies that will certifiy the no of passengers that the A380 will be allowed to carry. Again safety of the passenger will be paramount and if the evac tests show that the aircraft have to be certified for fewer passengers than what Airbus will claim so be it.

[Edited 2005-12-20 17:07:40]
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
Danny
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting N79969 (Reply 14):
Back up with what? It is a mass-circulation newspaper and not an engineering journal. They are general reporting information for public consumption.

Does this give them right to publish any BS they can come up with?
 
macc
Posts: 895
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:07 am

just a few thoughts about the article linked above

http://www.han-online.de/HANArticleP...fd9ac870d300d500b700c10031513308a4

It mentiones problems with weight and slides. However, the weight issue is dicsussed by a representative from an environmental protection group from hamburg, who are fighting against the extension of runways at finkenwerder.
That lady suspects airbus to secretly spread roumors of a higher weight to press further extension of runways at finkenwerder.  bigthumbsup 

another not specified source is quoted in regards to the slides. their huge dimension could cause problems when activated in windy conditions. (what a surprise). they compare it to the 310 incident from hapag lloyed here in vienna.  biggrin 

an airbus spokesman is quoted as refusing all this rumours. weight can be different depending on airlines individual cabin configurations.

all in all: nothing new, nothing factual, and no need to discuss further.

cheers  santahat 
I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
 
pavlin
Posts: 391
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:13 am

If it would be 14% higher it would fit into the 777-300 range
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1679
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:27 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
Does this give them right to publish any BS they can come up with?

I suspect this is just sloppy reporting, and yes, they have a right to do that. It's part of having a free press. Newspapers make mistakes all the time, and I assume that's what happened here. The Airbus press office will likely see this report, contact the reporter, correct the information, and the paper will print a correction.

A380 customers probably keep a pretty sharp eye on the testing program. If Airbus really missed the fuel burn by that much, we would have heard something before now. There would be order cancellations and complete chaos in Toulouse.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
WINGS
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:34 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 12):

Conspiracy? Where is the conspiracy, WINGS?

PlaneDane, did you actually take the time to read the article? If so it seems to me that you don't quite know the definition of a Conspiracy Theory. Its usually made up by someone that has lack of information. In other words its made up with a lot of BS

If you want a recent and reliable news article regarding the A380 flight progress take a look at this article published in Flight International.

http://www.flightinternational.com/A...powers+on+through+flight-test.html

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 12):
Who is orchestrating this conspiracy that you have identified?

Good question. Someone should ask the journalist involved with this article.

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 12):
What is their motive?

Let me guess. Give Airbus a good laugh.

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 12):
What do they hope to accomplish? Please, give us your information.

Well you shouldn't be asking me for information. It would be more accurate on your part to ask the Journalist the hard facts that has led him to this conclusion. Like all good journalist they should offer a reliable source so that they can back up their claim.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:41 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
Does this give them right to publish any BS they can come up with?

How do you know it BS? That may be the case. However the fact that Airbus says otherwise does not prove them wrong.

I defer to the FI article that Wings has linked elsewhere. However I do not think even their article directly contradicts what the German newspaper alleges.

The FI article is about certification testing while the Zeitung is referring to economic/engineering performance.
 
Areopagus
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 12:31 pm

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:05 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 20):
If so it seems to me that you don't quite know the definition of a Conspiracy Theory. Its usually made up by someone that has lack of information. In other words its made up with a lot of BS

It's only a conspiracy "theory" (really a hypothesis, not a theory) if it claims that a number of people have conspired to do something. If a number of people are independently doing bad things, it's not a conspiracy. He's asking who the conspirators are supposed to be.
 
art
Posts: 2680
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:12 am

From the article quoted:

Quoting Mham001 (Thread starter):
Lufthansa has changed its calculations from 2.9 to 3.3 liter per seat kilometer.

This is very bad news indeed. Assume 500 seats in the aircraft. Over a 10,000 Km leg the fuel burn for each seat increases from 29,000 L to 33,000 L. Total fuel burn increases from 29,000 x 500 L (14.5 million litres) to 33,000 x 500 L (16.5 million litres).

Carrying that extra 2 million litres of fuel (say 1,500 tonnes extra) would certainly make the A380 very uneconomic to fly, even if it were possible to get it off the ground in the first place.
 
764
Posts: 486
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 6:34 pm

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:19 am

Not to be mean, but your calculations are wrong. We're not talking 29,000 litres for 10,000 kilometers, but rather 290. So the increase would be from 500*290=145 ,000 to 165,000 litres.



[Edited 2005-12-20 18:20:16]
 
daedaeg
Posts: 627
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:54 am

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:26 am

Quoting Mham001 (Thread starter):
As reported in Suddeutsche Zeitung

GERMANY

Saturday, December 17, 2005

The time frame for the A380 is becoming more and more uncertain as
evacuation tests for the A380 have been postponed again. The factor
wind was not incorporated in the planning for the evacuation tests,
which were originally planned for November. It is questionable whether
Airbus will be able to keep promises to its customers, anyway, because
the A380 is still eleven tons too heavy and fuel consumption will
presumably be 14 percent higher than anticipated. Lufthansa has changed
its calculations from 2.9 to 3.3 liter per seat kilometer. (Süddeutsche
Zeitung - Ind, Ph)

I'm just having a hard time believing this article. 14% increase in fuel consumption seems incredibly high. Maybe they meant 1.4%. Despite Airbus having some fuzzy performance numbers in the past, it just doesn't seem plausible to be that far off. There is just too much at stake for them to make an error that egregious.
Everyday you're alive is a good day.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2002
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:26 am

Quote:

The time frame for the A380 is becoming more and more uncertain as
evacuation tests for the A380 have been postponed again. The factor
wind was not incorporated in the planning for the evacuation tests,
which were originally planned for November. It is questionable whether
Airbus will be able to keep promises to its customers, anyway, because
the A380 is still eleven tons too heavy and fuel consumption will
presumably be 14 percent higher than anticipated. Lufthansa has changed
its calculations from 2.9 to 3.3 liter per seat kilometer. (Süddeutsche
Zeitung - Ind, Ph)

Rather then blindly attack the messenger, can anyone confirm this information? In particular can we figure out if

a) The evacuation tests have in fact been suspended/delayed? They were supposed to occur in January so the timeline feels right if they were going to postpone them.

b) Can the weight concerns be validated by anyone outside of Airbus or Boeing? The last I heard near production is that the planes were coming in around 2 tons overweight, not eleven tons. Bear in mind that the first furnished A380s are being fitted out with furnishings right now. Airbus's last rounds of weight cutting revolved completly around forcing their sub-contractors who are furnishing the planes to cut weight. This may reflect that effort not being successfull.

c) Would 14 tons translate to 14% higher fuel costs? I kind of doubt this statistic because it would effectivly negate almost any advantage that the A380 has over the 744 in terms of operating efficency. It would almost certainly lead to mass cancelations among the customers. Airbus has a history of under-delivering recently, but not by these margins.
 
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clickhappy
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:34 am

In reply 17 Macc has said that Airbus has responded to, and denired, these rumors. If that is true (no reason to believe it isn't) then this article means nothing.

If anything, common sense should apply. 14%!?!?!? That is a HUGE margin, and seems impossible given todays high tech world. Missing by that large of a margin would be like leaving California for Michigan and winding up in Texas. It just doesn't seem possible.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:37 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 10):
Looks like they are using a Lufthansa source.

But not attributing it.

Quoting GARPD (Reply 11):
After the SQ debacle

The what?

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 12):
Danny, could you provide us with links to information that refutes what is being claimed in this article?

Yes. Every article written up to this point.

Its not our job to prove them wrong, rather for them to prove that they're right.

N
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:39 am

Quoting Daedaeg (Reply 25):
I'm just having a hard time believing this article. 14% increase in fuel consumption seems incredibly high. Maybe they meant 1.4%.

That is my sense as well. It is hard to imagine that they could get that far out of engineering tolerances.
 
GBan
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:10 pm

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:41 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 26):
Rather then blindly attack the messenger, can anyone confirm this information?

I did subscribe to the newspaper in question and read the whole article. There are more "informations" in the article that seem questionable, like:

Airbus wanted to replace the evacuation test with a computer-simulation, but this was rejected by the authorities. I have never heard of this and I do not think that it is very probable.

The author of the article is Tim van Beveren, who has written sensational books like

"Das Risiko fliegt mit" (the risk is flying with you)

"Runter kommen sie immer. Die verschwiegenen Risiken des Flugverkehrs" (They always come down. The covered risks of air traffic.)

After reading some online reviews on Amazon for these titles I would not say that the author is a trustable source.
 
MarshalN
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:44 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 28):
Yes. Every article written up to this point.

Its not our job to prove them wrong, rather for them to prove that they're right.

N

That's what I've been thinking reading this thread. While it is certainly possible for Airbus to have messed up and underdeliver for fuel consumption, 14% is enormous and will definitely result in significant cancellation or at least A LOT of noise from the customers. If we haven't heard about it yet, it's probably because it isn't true. I don't think Airbus will be able to keep this info under wraps even if they tried. There are no "sources" in this article, just a line about LH changing their calculations, but that's hardly a "source"
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:45 am

Quoting GBan (Reply 30):
Airbus wanted to replace the evacuation test with a computer-simulation, but this was rejected by the authorities. I have never heard of this and I do not think that it is very probable.

That part is true.

N
 
art
Posts: 2680
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting 764 (Reply 24):
Not to be mean, but your calculations are wrong. We're not talking 29,000 litres for 10,000 kilometers, but rather 290. So the increase would be from 500*290=145 ,000 to 165,000 litres.

764, I don't think you are being in the slightest bit mean and I am SURE my calculations are wrong since they are based on data that I am SURE is wrong.

If the journalist had meant consumption per 100Km rather than per Km, then why didn't he/she express it as such? In view of his/her slapdash approach to reporting, I attach no value to what is in this article.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2002
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:50 am

Quoting GBan (Reply 30):
Airbus wanted to replace the evacuation test with a computer-simulation, but this was rejected by the authorities. I have never heard of this and I do not think that it is very probable.

Actually, that one is confirmed.
 
GBan
Posts: 488
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 31):
There are no "sources" in this article, just a line about LH changing their calculations, but that's hardly a "source"

Actually the author does compare a number he claims to have read in some current Lufthansa press release (3.3 l) with a number given by Airbus to Sueddeutsche Zeitung in July 6th 2004 (2.9 l).

He concludes that fuel consumption has increased by 14%. He does not bother to do a full compare - taking into account the number of passengers these fuel consumptions per passenger are based on. In other words - possibly both numbers are correct, but this does not imply an increase in fuel consumption as the author states.
 
GBan
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:10 pm

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:54 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 34):
Actually, that one is confirmed.

And I thought that I kind of followed the discussion  Wink
 
oldeuropean
Posts: 1686
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:54 am

The quote from the Süddeutsche (from the thread starter) looks like taken out of the context and is nearly similar to the quote of the enviromental activist from the link of Jush:

http://www.han-online.de/HANArticleP...fd9ac870d300d500b700c10031513308a4

One have to read the whole article in the Süddeutsche, but, as Jush wrote, the access via the SZ page is not for free.

Axel
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
MarshalN
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:39 am

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:57 am

Quoting GBan (Reply 35):
Actually the author does compare a number he claims to have read in some current Lufthansa press release (3.3 l) with a number given by Airbus to Sueddeutsche Zeitung in July 6th 2004 (2.9 l).

He concludes that fuel consumption has increased by 14%. He does not bother to do a full compare - taking into account the number of passengers these fuel consumptions per passenger are based on. In other words - possibly both numbers are correct, but this does not imply an increase in fuel consumption as the author states.

Hmmm, well, I can't read German, so I'm just relying on the tidbits here  Smile

But the way you reasoned it seems to make sense. If the Airbus config vs the LH config has a 14% difference in pax numbers, for example, then that's the 14% right there.

I bet this will disappoint our Boeing-fans who probably hope this article is pure truth.
 
GBan
Posts: 488
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:58 am

This is the Lufthansa source in English. It does state 3.3 l but I cannot find any remark that the numbers have changed:

http://konzern.lufthansa.com/en/down...2005_10sp/newslinkSpecial_a380.pdf
 
BR076
Posts: 1032
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:27 am

Quoting GBan (Reply 39):
This is the Lufthansa source in English. It does state 3.3 l but I cannot find any remark that the numbers have changed:

http://konzern.lufthansa.com/en/down...0.pdf

Yes you are right, in the comparisation tabel it states 3.3 litres of kerosene per passenger and 100 kilometres, but in the article itself they speak about 3.0 litre. so Lufthansa make up your mind  Wink

Quote:
The tanks hold 310,000 litres of
fuel, enough to fill the tanks of 5,000
VW Golfs. The cruising speed of 0.85
Mach (about 900 kilometres per hour)
is well above that of an A340. Nevertheless,
the A380 requires only three
litres of kerosene per passenger and
100 kilometres!
ú
 
PlaneDane
Posts: 347
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:08 am

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 20):
PlaneDane, did you actually take the time to read the article? If so it seems to me that you don't quite know the definition of a Conspiracy Theory. Its usually made up by someone that has lack of information. In other words its made up with a lot of BS

Actually, that isn't quite the correct definition of a conspiracy, WINGS. A true conspiracy involves participation by a group to do something considered wrongful.

If the information the writer of this article provided proves to be false, then he or she is only guilty of bad journalism, which is probably not illegal.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 28):
Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 12):
Danny, could you provide us with links to information that refutes what is being claimed in this article?

Yes. Every article written up to this point.

Such as, Gigneil?

Remember how we first found out about the 6 month delay to the A380 program? Was it from an official announcement from Airbus? No, we learned of it from various other sources that were initially scoffed at by many members on a.net, as I recall. Only later on did Airbus confirm this news.

Look, I don't want to see the A380 program encounter any more problems. Let's hope that isn't what is happening here again.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:39 am

here's my take....I think the plane is overweight by about 1-1.5%, but the plane fuel use is better than expected, hence the plane is flying "to specifications" or close "to specifications"....

14% over for fuel consumption would be the death knell for the plane and that information would certainly have been leaked by now...along with a few cancellations....

whether the plane will sell and is/was a good investment for EADS/EADS investors is another story.....but I think the plane is performing close to what Airbus had expected.....

I think we should cut Airbus some slack and see how the plane performs once its in the hands of SQ, EK, etc....then "The Truth" about the plane's performance will really be known.......
"Up the Irons!"
 
kappel
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:56 am

In the latest issue of airlinerworld there is a blurb about a380 progress. It says that the aerodynamics are better than expected, approach speed has been lowered from 142 knots to 138 knots, and cruise speed will be mach 0.86 in stead of 0.85.

So I seriously doubt that 14% statement as I have more faith in AW than a local daily newspaper.
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707lvr
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:10 am

Wish there were more Art's (Chris Young.) Maybe it's because aviation uses so many varieties of measurement that you have to be very careful when any piece has numbers in it. Agree, the article is worthless and when a reporter is exponentially wrong in his basic premise, he should probably take up other work.
 
N79969
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:14 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 43):
In the latest issue of airlinerworld there is a blurb about a380 progress. It says that the aerodynamics are better than expected, approach speed has been lowered from 142 knots to 138 knots, and cruise speed will be mach 0.86 in stead of 0.85.

So I seriously doubt that 14% statement as I have more faith in AW than a local daily newspaper.

I think there is a great degree of confusion about flight performance and economic performance. I think there has been plenty of written about flight performance which has been positive overall with the notable exception of the wake turbulence. And Airbus promises that will be resolved soon.

There has been precious little written about the plane's economic performance other than a very sparse statement from Airbus that fuel burn has been better than expected during early phases. Airbus has been pretty quiet on this issue.

If the German newspaper directly contradicts other articles directly on point, I am not aware of them yet.
 
jascmil
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:21 am

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:18 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 28):
Quoting Mham001 (Reply 10):
Looks like they are using a Lufthansa source.

But not attributing it.

That's not uncommon -- it's called "On Deep Background" sourcing. That certainly doesn't make it credible, but chances are that the journalist didn't completely fabricate numbers just for the fun of it. Although I'm not familiar with the integrity or journalistic standards of the publication, it seems unlikely that the journalist would put his or her career on the line to report some bogus numbers about the A380.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 28):
Its not our job to prove them wrong, rather for them to prove that they're right.

Absolutely correct!
 
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PM
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:19 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
Missing the fuel target by 14%, in particular, is not acceptable!

"Not acceptable"? Read "instant death"!! No airliner these days misses its target by anything close to 14%. As suggested above, I might groan and live with 1.4% but never 14%!
 
BandA
Posts: 319
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:34 am

German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 5):
Looks like astonishing example of journalist incompetence.

ditto
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Tom_EDDF
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German Media: A380 Overweight And Late

Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:01 am

As stated in reply #30, if the author of the article is Tim van Beveren, it's not credible whatsoever and a shame that a high profile newspaper like Sueddeutsche relies on such questionable sources.

Tim van Beveren is a person who has dedicated his life to bashing airbus whenver possible, at least since they launched fly by wire, and he does make money from scaring the flying public with his horrible publications, books and articles. He has no credibility within the german aviation community and even though he's a pilot himself, he's not well respected by most pilots. He keeps on repeating his stories again and again, but most of what he's saying is little more than speculation or horror stories to scare people.

I'm sure nobody in Airbus would talk to him, neither any credible source from within Lufthansa would pass any confidential information on to Beveren, who's doing whatever he can to damage the reputation of the aviation industry.

His comments come in handy whenever journalists have some space to fill in their newspaper or if they need some bold (though badly investigated) news headlines for some low quality TV programs. He also appears from time to time as one of those nightmare "aviation experts" on german TV after accidents, mostly on not very credible channels, though.

Just run a google search on his name and you'll find out.

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