DIA
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773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:43 am

"Recently, Boeing made enhancements to the 777-300ER that improve the airplane's overall fuel efficiency by 1.4 percent. This amount is in addition to the 2 percent fuel-burn improvement already proven in revenue service by airlines that currently operate the 777-300ER. The 1.4 percent improvement in fuel efficiency equates to an annual savings of approximately 200,000 gallons (757,000 liters) per aircraft."

-Boeing (In regards to Cathay Pacific firming up their new 777 order)


Will all 773ERs delivered from now on incorporate these advancements? Is it an option to airlines? Do they cost more, or Boeing does it as part of their original purchase price?
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DIA
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:44 am

One more question:

Can the first few 773ERs be retrofitted to these new advancements?
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NYC777
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:51 am

I believe Boeing said that all delivered 773ERs will be retrofitted with the improvments. All future deliveries of the 773ER will already have them incorporated. Nice!
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
pavlin
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:07 am

why wouldnt they be? any particular reason?
 
AJRfromSYR
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:43 am

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 3):
why wouldn't they be? Any particular reason?

Why aren't all 737's fitted with winglets for fuel savings, or 757's? Same logic could have been used depending on said ambiguous improvements.
-AJR-
 
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Stitch
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:50 am

All to-be-delievered 773ERs will have the improvements.

773ERs delievered before this could probably have the changes made, it would just be up to the operators to decide if it is worth the time and expense vs. the fuel savings.
 
COEWR787
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:01 am

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 4):
Why aren't all 737's fitted with winglets for fuel savings, or 757's?

Because Boeing does not deliver even any new 737s or 757s with winglets? AFAIK the wnglets are not a Boeing improvement, they are an after market add-on.
 
B2707SST
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:08 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
I believe Boeing said that all delivered 773ERs will be retrofitted with the improvments. All future deliveries of the 773ER will already have them incorporated. Nice!

You are correct:
The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] has delivered to Air France the first Boeing 777-300ER (Extended Range) airplane that includes enhancements that improve the overall fuel efficiency of the 777-300ER by 1.4 percent. This amount is in addition to the 2 percent fuel-burn improvement already proven in revenue service by the airlines that operate the 777-300ER.

...

The 1.4 percent additional improvement in fuel efficiency was brought about by a number of factors:
  • GE Aircraft Engines modified its powerful GE90-115B engines.

  • Boeing engineers reduced the airplane's drag by modifying the airplane's vortex generators and its air induction systems for the environmental control systems.

  • Engineers also incorporated several weight-reduction improvements to the airplane's internal structure, including lighter weight environmental control-system ducts and main-deck floor panels.
All future 777-300ERs delivered to customers will include these enhancements, and Boeing has plans to incorporate these changes into the 27 777-300ERs currently in service.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q4/nr_051129g.html

--B2707SST
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anxebla
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:52 pm

Thank you for your picture and link to flightinternational.com, Confuscius  Smile It's informative and useful too
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N79969
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:09 pm

Very smart of Boeing to modify already delivered aircraft at no cost.
 
anxebla
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:13 pm

Very smart?  boggled 
Boeing (and also Airbus, Embraer or any manufacturer) must giving assistance to their customers for free. It is not fair to the earlier customers having a worst airliner or a plane which burns more fuel. --I think AF would be agree with me on this point--

A adequate, reliable post-sales service is a must for any aircraft manufacturer ...in order to Keep the customer's satisfaction and faithfulness
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N328KF
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:31 pm

Quoting Anxebla (Reply 11):
Very smart?   
Boeing (and also Airbus, Embraer or any manufacturer) must giving assistance to their customers for free. It is not fair to the earlier customers having a worst airliner or a plane which burns more fuel. --I think AF would be agree with me on this point--

Nope, this is the equivalent of a dealer-installed option at an auto dealership. Boeing doesn't have to do this. In fact, we don't know if this is truly free or not. This may just be an optional kit that one would be crazy to pass up on.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
Sinlock
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:09 pm

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 6):
Because Boeing does not deliver even any new 737s or 757s with winglets? AFAIK the wnglets are not a Boeing improvement, they are an after market add-on.

The 737NG winglet is Produced by "Aviation Partners Boeing" it's a joint venture with AP being the controling stake-holder. So Boeing certinly is a major part of the winglet process.

All 737 700/800s built after NG line #746 (around that#) have had a standard wingtip structure and wireing so no major changes need to be made to the aircraft if Winglets are later installed (i.e. everything is bolt on).

Boeing most certinly delivers 737NGs with winglets installed if thats the airlines choice.
 
mham001
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:28 am

Saying Boeing MUST provide these enhancements to all past customers is dippy. It would be the same as saying last years autos must be upgraded to this years model enhancements-for free. Boeing already exceeded its performance promises on the earlier models. If Boeing is doing this for free, they are certainly deserving of credit for going above and beyond in customer service.
I'm wondering, how simple a task or is it even possible to replace the main floor sections and environmental control ducts?
 
qutaiba
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:35 am

Anxbela,

you're right, the manufacturer ought to provide good support. but (i think) because this is not a priority modification (not safety related) it will be up to the operator negotiaiton skill & leverage to obtain some contribution.

May be those that recieved their aircraft recently will be more fortunate, and definetly those with scheduled deliveries will have a better position to negotiate and so on.

also without the details on how those benefits will be obtained (e.g. trip length, ISA conditions etc...) it may not be significant for an operator with average trip length of (lets say) 3400 Km vs another whose average trip twice as that. But it may affect the asset valuation.
When the tide comes in, all ships will rise
 
anxebla
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:12 am

Quoting Qutaiba (Reply 18):
Anxbela,you're right

Thanks, It's comforting to know I'm not a "weirdo"  Wink

Quoting Qutaiba (Reply 18):
it may not be significant for an operator with average trip length of (lets say) 3400 Km vs another whose average trip twice as that.

The issue here is not range, but economics. And specially nowadays with a very high oil price.
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whitehatter
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:14 am

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
Recently, Boeing made enhancements to the 777-300ER that improve the airplane's overall fuel efficiency by 1.4 percent.

Now if they can just work on reliability...I know EK are not happy with the breakdown rates on their new 773ER fleet.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
qutaiba
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:21 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 21):
The issue here is not range, but economics. And specially nowadays with a very high oil price.

yes that is what i meant, i.e. fuel consupmtion over a flight duration or distance. Understandably, the high fuel prices put pressure on airlines flight ops planning and engineering nowadays.
When the tide comes in, all ships will rise
 
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N328KF
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:32 am

Quoting Anxebla (Reply 20):
The issue here is not range, but economics. And specially nowadays with a very high oil price.

Why are you trying to turn a good thing (Boeing delivering better performance than expected) into something bad? It's simple...Boeing delivered a product. That product performed better than billed. Then they came out with an enhancement that improves performance further. The customers would not expect that enhancement for free. It's like you bought a computer, and then someone else bought one months later, and you started bitching because his computer was newer and contained a faster processor, and you had to go back to the computer dealer to get a processor upgrade.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
AvFan4ever
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RE: 773ER Improved Fuel Efficiency Standard Now?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:59 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 19):
It's simple...Boeing delivered a product. That product performed better than billed. Then they came out with an enhancement that improves performance further. The customers would not expect that enhancement for free.

Exactly. Airlines got what they were promised and got what they paid for. Developing improvements to existing products does not render previous versions "defective". If Boeing had missed its original performance targets and the retrofits were necessary to get the aircraft closer to original guarantees, it would be different. In practice, a "free" upgrade may end up being part of a deal to purchase other products or services, or exercise options, etc.