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10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:22 am

 
BestWestern
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:30 am

In English

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuot...05-12-21_15-27-56_n21190000_newsml

TAM, a longtime Airbus customer, said it intends to use the new aircraft to renew its fleet. The airline currently has 56 Airbus jets in its fleet, including the A330-200, which seats 213 passengers. The A350-900 will be configured in a three-class layout, seating up to 300 people.

TAM finished November with 43.8 percent of Brazil's domestic market.
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BoomBoom
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:39 am

The WSJ says:
TAM previously announced its intention to buy the jets at the Le Bourget airshow in June.

So I assume this means that this order will not get Airbus any closer to 200 orders by the end of the year, as it's already been counted?
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clickhappy
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:41 am

How come they will wait 6+ years for delivery? If they don't need them until then, fine, but why tie up the cash?
 
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PM
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 3):
So I assume this means that this order will not get Airbus any closer to 200 orders by the end of the year, as it's already been counted?

What they signed for in Paris was 8 firm and 7 options. This is for 10 firm and 5 options so they're actually two closer. (But your negative spin is duly noted.)
 
PHXinterrupted
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:43 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 2):
TAM finished November with 43.8 percent of Brazil's domestic market.

That number is quickly changing with the rapid growth of Gol.
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LipeGIG
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:45 am

Good news. IMO I believe they probably will confirm their 5 options as well as i expect they keep some of the A332 for new routes.

TAM is doing a great job on their international network, but they are very conservative after droping Frankfurt and Zurich.

Wish to see them with all their 10 A332 flying next year.

Felipe
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sabenapilot
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:47 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 3):
TAM previously announced its intention to buy the jets at the Le Bourget airshow in June.

I thought they only announced their intention to buy 8 A350s at Le Bourget, not 10 like they have signed for now...
 
sabenapilot
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:52 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 3):
I assume this means that this order will not get Airbus any closer to 200 orders by the end of the year

What do you mean?

Since the A350 is just a warmed up A330, not even worth of being called a kind of A330NG, you should live up to your claims and count ALL versions: by doing so, the fly-by-wire wide body twin from Airbus has already exceeded its very ambitious sales target months ago!  Silly
 
EI321
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:54 am

Quoting PM (Reply 5):
What they signed for in Paris was 8 firm and 7 options. This is for 10 firm and 5 options so they're actually two closer. (But your negative spin is duly noted.)

In fairness to BoomBoom, I think he made an honest mistake. It happens.
 
mbj2000
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:41 am

What's wrong with you guys, why all these negative comments?! I mean it is normal to be a bit biased towards one side or the other, but you seem to have developed this attitude everything comes from Airbus must be crap and can only be sold with big incentives, Airbus should shut down production lines and don't spoil the business for Boeing.

Is it so hard for Boeing fans to accept there might exist planes built somewhere else in the world that CAN be as good as Boeing's?!

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 3):
So I assume this means that this order will not get Airbus any closer to 200 orders by the end of the year, as it's already been counted?



Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 4):
How come they will wait 6+ years for delivery? If they don't need them until then, fine, but why tie up the cash?



Quoting PHXinterrupted (Reply 6):
That number is quickly changing with the rapid growth of Gol.
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
 
Joost
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:19 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 4):
How come they will wait 6+ years for delivery? If they don't need them until then, fine, but why tie up the cash?

You might well assume that in the price they pay a compensation for the intereset in deposits is calculated.
 
mbj2000
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:21 am

How many (fix) A350 orders has Airbus so far for this year? Has somebody got numbers?
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
 
FlyPEGASUS
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:35 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 14):
This now leaves 8 unannounced orders which is expected to come this week from Latin America.

Any guess who it might be?

I would bet on TACA and Mexicana!!

Possible orders of A350 coming from Latin America Airlines has been discussed in a recent thread: Viva Macau, Startup, Plans A350 Or B787 Order (by PanAm_DC10 Dec 15 2005 in Civil Aviation)#ID2493094
You can check some considerations about it there.

Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 19):
How many (fix) A350 orders has Airbus so far for this year? Has somebody got numbers?

Last time I saw it was on a post from WINGS in one other thread. WINGS can you post it again?

Regards
 
WINGS
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:38 am

Well the following posts from PanAmDC_10 in another topic, gives some clues to the upcoming order.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2493094

I note the discussion as to the definition of the regions. Perhaps I should have been clearer. Mexico is included in the region. But I would be looking further south as to whom will place the order of note

Regards, PanAm_DC10



Hmmmm....Some good calls, let's hope I'm right Now, some more fuel to the fire.....

MIAMI (Dow Jones)--Airbus will sell 10 more aircraft in South America by the end of this year, said Rafael Alonso, Airbus' senior vice president for Latin America, Caribbean and Spain, on Wednesday. Alonso declined to say which companies will buy the aircraft, but said an announcement is expected shortly, probably next week.

More than 1 carrier, more than 1 model. The plot thickens...Guesses anyone?

Regards, PanAm_DC10


Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
WINGS
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:46 am

So far we have the following orders for the A350.

Qatar Airways 60
Tap Portugal 12
Tam 10
Air Europa 10
Eurofly 3
Kingfisher 5
US Airways 20
Gecas 10
CIT 5
ILFC 12
ALAFCO 12
Undisclosed 8 (LatinAmerica)

TOTAL: 167 Order/Commitments

Air MAdrid has also spoken of their interest in ordering 15 A350. Even if we take all of these orders/commitments it would still leave Airbus 18 frames short of their 200 goal.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:55 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 9):
Since the A350 is just a warmed up A330, not even worth of being called a kind of A330NG, you should live up to your claims

My claims? Where did I say this? The only ones who seem to be bashing the A350 in this thread are the Airbus lovers, like you.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 11):
In fairness to BoomBoom, I think he made an honest mistake. It happens.

That's why I posed it in the form of a question because I really didn't know.

So I assume this means that this order will not get Airbus any closer to 200 orders by the end of the year, as it's already been counted?

But your "fairness" is greatly appreciated.

Also, Sabenapilot, that quote in Reply #8 was from the WSJ, I'm sure it was purely accidental that you tried to attribute it solely to me.

[Edited 2005-12-21 19:11:46]
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CV990
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:57 am

Hi!

Good show TAM!!! I understand that for some people in this forum it's a bit hard to "swallow" the fact that slowly but steady Airbus is building the numbers on the A350.... there's a great market for the A350 and I know that many airlines will order the A350 instead of the 787! Pacience is a virtue and Airbus know exactely what to do!
Regards
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:49 am

Quoting PHXinterrupted (Reply 6):
That number is quickly changing with the rapid growth of Gol.

RG is the carrier suffering the most as a result of Gol's growth. JJ has been steadily the number one in the domestic market and while Gol indeed is a threat, JJ is a really strong player with a lot of loyal customers.

Quoting FlyPEGASUS (Reply 20):
I would bet on TACA and Mexicana!!

Hopefully MX will order a few. The change of ownership might delay things a bit, however, MX is said to be close to ordering the A332 for EZE and JFK services and the A345 for Asian destinations (they have spoken of wanting to fly to PEK on time for the Olympics). With respect to next-generation twin engined planes, MX is said to be considering both the 787 and the A350.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
N79969
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:01 am

Good for Airbus. A respectable win for them.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 4):
If they don't need them until then, fine, but why tie up the cash?

Perhaps they do not need to front the cash yet or only had to commit a minimal amount. I would bet Airbus is offering some very flexible terms on the A350 to prime the pump a little.
 
Matterhorn
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:16 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 23):

Qatar Airways 60
Tap Portugal 12
Tam 10
Air Europa 10
Eurofly 3
Kingfisher 5
US Airways 20
Gecas 10
CIT 5
ILFC 12
ALAFCO 12
Undisclosed 8 (LatinAmerica

you forgot the ones from finnair
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Lumberton
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:17 am

One thing that impressed me very much was the sincere contratulations to Boeing and QF from many admitted Airbus proponents when the announcement of large 787 order was released last week. That was a class act. May I reciprocate? Well done, TAM and Airbus!
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WINGS
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:28 am

TOTAL: 176 Orders/Commitments

Quoting Matterhorn (Reply 29):
you forgot the ones from finnair

Ooooooooooops. How did I forget about Finnair.


So the numbers should look something like this for the A350.

Qatar Airways 60
Tap Portugal 12
Tam 10
Finnair 9
Air Europa 10
Eurofly 3
Kingfisher 5
US Airways 20
Gecas 10
CIT 5
ILFC 12
ALAFCO 12
Undisclosed 8 (LatinAmerica)

Total: 176 orders/commitments

If Airbus manages to sign Air Madrid for 15 A350, we have a grand total of 191 frames. This would only leave 9 frames to the 200 goal by year end.

Regards,
Wings

[Edited 2005-12-21 20:29:40]
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RayChuang
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:24 am

Here's the question: with TAM buying up to 15 A350's, and given the nearly 1,000 nautical mile longer range of the A350, will that mean TAM is seriously looking at flying from GIG/GRU all the way to LAX?
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:08 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 8):
I thought they only announced their intention to buy 8 A350s at Le Bourget, not 10 like they have signed for now...

That is indeed correct. It should have actually been 12 got told that last week after reading another financial Filing of theirs. Not sure how it ended up 2 short at 10 but nice to see the firm order component increased all the same.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 21):
More than 1 carrier, more than 1 model. The plot thickens...Guesses anyone?

WINGS is only as good as the information that he had and again, this is a case of where I could have been clearer in what I said. Where I refer to the above statement, the attached article makes no mention of the A350. So more than 1 carrier, more than 1 model meant more than 1 Airbus model

If my English was not concise enough it warrants an apology for any confusion caused.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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glideslope
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 9):
Since the A350 is just a warmed up A330, not even worth of being called a kind of A330NG

Well stated.  Smile
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LipeGIG
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:23 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 33):
Here's the question: with TAM buying up to 15 A350's, and given the nearly 1,000 nautical mile longer range of the A350, will that mean TAM is seriously looking at flying from GIG/GRU all the way to LAX?

Ray, could be. But i strong believe the first additional destination they should serve will be London.
TAM is looking very close to RG's situation, but nothing said about services to LAX or other european cities served only by RG (brazilian side).

[quote=PlanesNTrains,reply=38]

I believe TAM looks to options 1 and 2. In terms of comfort it depends on the seats / configuration of the plane. Also A330 seems to be a very good choice (while for example RG face a lot of problems with their 777 fleet, TAM does not shows such bad records for their A330 operations)

Rgds,
Felipe
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WINGS
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:56 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 24):

WINGS is only as good as the information that he had and again, this is a case of where I could have been clearer in what I said. Where I refer to the above statement, the attached article makes no mention of the A350. So more than 1 carrier, more than 1 model meant more than 1 Airbus model

If my English was not concise enough it warrants an apology for any confusion caused.

Regards, PanAm_DC10

Hi PanAm, The one that should be apologizing is me. Your post was very clear. Unfortunately I miss read your post.

You very well stated that it would be from two airlines and for two different models. In other only one airline would be ordering the A350., which in this case was TAM.

Regards,
Wigs
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:04 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 27):
Regards,
Wigs

Wigs Huh, a name change or no morning coffee yet?  Smile

Always a pleasure discussing orders with you my good man. I still feel that I should have been clearer though. Anyway, back OT, TAM have still filed that they have secured more finance for their needs. I believe they will convert a couple more options at a point in time next year.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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WINGS
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:08 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 28):

Wigs Huh, a name change or no morning coffee yet? Smile

Yep. Am still in need of a good caffeine shot.

Regards,
Wings
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incitatus
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 8):
Since the A350 is just a warmed up A330, not even worth of being called a kind of A330NG,

How about calling it the A300 NG Big grin

I would like to restate my point that the only reason TAM chose the A350 is because of its standing relationship with Airbus and never taking seriously a product offering from Boeing.

The only way for Airbus to compete with the 787 is to start from scratch.

As for those who think airlines don't make mistakes in selecting airplanes, please go back to the aviation history books. A classic example is TAP for example choosing 747s to add to the fleet.
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A360
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:46 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 30):
The only way for Airbus to compete with the 787 is to start from scratch.

Well, Boeing didn't start from scratch to compete with the 320... they upgraded the 737 and created the 737NG which, as you must be aware, was/is a success!
So, as history shows you, you don't need a completely new designs to create an aircraft as good as a completely new one.

Regards:
A360
 
WINGS
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:05 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 30):
As for those who think airlines don't make mistakes in selecting airplanes, please go back to the aviation history books. A classic example is TAP for example choosing 747s to add to the fleet.

Tap a classic example?

What are you talking about? You should look closer to home for some examples of poor aquasitions.

If you took sometime to learn something about Portugals history you would realize that the B747 had its role for that moment. In 1974 when Portugal had its Revolution, its former colonies in Africa were handed over and civil war broke out in Angola and Mozambique and the need for such a large aircraft was none. For this very reason the B747 had its days numbered in Taps fleet.

Regards,
Wings
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BoomBoom
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:36 am

Quoting A360 (Reply 31):
Well, Boeing didn't start from scratch to compete with the 320... they upgraded the 737 and created the 737NG which, as you must be aware, was/is a success!
So, as history shows you, you don't need a completely new designs to create an aircraft as good as a completely new one.

Yes, but the 787 is a much more revolutionary design. The 737NG is able to match or beat the A320 in performance. But it doesn't necessarily follow that the A350 will do the same with the 787.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
incitatus
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:42 am

Quoting A360 (Reply 31):
Well, Boeing didn't start from scratch to compete with the 320... they upgraded the 737 and created the 737NG which, as you must be aware, was/is a success!
So, as history shows you, you don't need a completely new designs to create an aircraft as good as a completely new one.

Coursework on logic would help. I never stated that all derivatives are poor airplanes. I only stated that in this case the gap between the A330 and the 787 is too great to be covered by an engineering facelift.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 32):
What are you talking about? You should look closer to home for some examples of poor aquasitions.

Yes, definetely I have looked! That's why I'm criticizing TAM if you didn't notice.
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WINGS
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:06 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 34):
Yes, definetely I have looked! That's why I'm criticizing TAM if you didn't notice.

I was actually referring to Varig and their fleet options. Look at how many different types of aircraft and powerplants are currently being used by them.

In TAM´s case they have a large but simple fleet choice. They are sticking to fleet commodity. The same can not be said about Varig. Tap has also chosen this path. Acquiring the A319/320/321 for their short haul fleet and the A330/340/350 for their long haul. The A310 should be on their way out in the coming years. For this very same reason I do not understand your criticism to TAM´s fleet decision.

Or might it be the fact you would have liked them to have ordered the B787? If so then that's another reason altogether.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:08 am

Two more frames firm. Sure is a hot seller!  Yeah sure  duck 
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WINGS
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:48 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 36):
Two more frames firm. Sure is a hot seller! Yeah sure duck

Its actually more than just two extra frames. Its TAMs faith in the A350 project that has lead them to excercise two options. The same that Tap Portugal has done by also excercising two of their options into firm orders.

Now here is food for though. Has anyone actually realized how many airframes have actually been ordered or to be placed by carriers of Latin speaking origin?

Nothing less than 50 frames.

TAM 10
Tap Portugal 12
Air Europa
Eurofly 3
Air Madrid (possible order for 15 frames)

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:56 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 33):
Yes, but the 787 is a much more revolutionary design. The 737NG is able to match or beat the A320 in performance. But it doesn't necessarily follow that the A350 will do the same with the 787.

Neither is it taken for given that it doesn't. The A350 features a new wing, new engines of a already revolutionary design (the A330 was one of the first airliners to feature FBW, for example). So what it might lack when competing with the 787, it might have when competing to the 777.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:14 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 38):
So what it might lack when competing with the 787, it might have when competing to the 777.

Sure, if you want to change the subject.

Quoting A360 (Reply 31):
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 30):
The only way for Airbus to compete with the 787 is to start from scratch.
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manni
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:39 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 36):
Two more frames firm. Sure is a hot seller!


Enought to upset you, apparently.  Yeah sure

BTW,

Looking at Boeings orders/commitments for the 787

Icelandair 2
Xiamen Airlines 3
Vietnam Airlines 4
Royal Air Maroc 4
Blue Panorama 4
Air New Zealand 4 initially, converted 2 options afterwards.

All small single digit orders, but a grand total of 23 aircraft or roughly US$ 3 billion at list price. Not bad eh..., discounting small orders is rather naieve IMO.
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garpd
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:09 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 4):
What they signed for in Paris was 8 firm and 7 options. This is for 10 firm and 5 options so they're actually two closer. (But your negative spin is duly noted.)

With all due respect, I see no spin
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: 10 + 5 A359 For TAM

Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:34 pm

TAM have announced that they have chosen GE for their engines.

By Andrea Rothman
Jan. 2 (Bloomberg) -- General Electric Co., the world's biggest maker of jet engines, was chosen by TAM SA, Brazil's second-biggest airline, to provide engines for 10 Airbus SAS A350 planes ordered last month.

Sao Paulo-based TAM, which signed the order with Airbus on Dec. 21, selected the GEnx engine built by GE's aircraft engine division, GE said today in a statement sent by e-mail. Rolls- Royce Plc offers a competing engine.


Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible

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