ehho
Posts: 769
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:26 am

FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:15 am

According to an article in the Dutch daily NRC Handelsblad yesterday, the FAA has issued KL a warning concerning aircraft maintenance, after a yearly audit conducted at AMS. This threat of certificate revocation concerns the period after 12-31-2006.

I couldn't find any supporting sources on FAA's website, or elsewhere.

What kind of license would be concerned? The right to fly to or over the US, or the right to operate US-made aircraft? The article says that "FAA demands improvement in the maintenance of American aircraft"

Article in NRC Handelsblad:
http://www.nrc.nl/binnenland/artikel/1135144925922.html (Dutch)
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
kl662
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:39 pm

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:42 am

I noticed this article yesterday about outsourced maintenance. Could be related, I suppose.
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:59 am

I doubt that the FAA can prevent KLM from operating US-made aircraft outside the US, regardless of level of maintenance. Its most probably the license to fly within FAA controlled airspace, which would probably equate the the JAA doing the same.
 
A319114
Posts: 520
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:40 pm

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:00 am

Quoting EHHO (Thread starter):
According to an article in the Dutch daily NRC Handelsblad yesterday

Actually, it's in today's paper (minor detail). It's a very much respected news paper so I think it's a credible source.

The Dutch 'FAA' (IVW - inspectie verkeer & waterstaat) doesn't speak of a 'direct threat', but also has summoned KLM to improve their maintenance.

The FAA criticism is especially aimed at KLM maintenance administration (they speak of 'inconsistencies'.
Destruction leads to a very rough road but it also breeds creation
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:36 am

Surprising. But i'm glad it's just administrative inconsistencies, as they say. KLM has a great name safety-wise, so it would be a shock if they were cutting corners. Any aircrash is terrible, but if it's because of faulty maintenence, it's even worse, though an airline could have such a crash and survive (like AS).
Anyway, it's good to know that these audits happen, so aviation can continue to as safe as it is.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
goaliemn
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:46 pm

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:57 am

If the FAA pulls the airworthiness certificate, I believe the plane is grounded worldwide. From my flight training, the airworthiness certificate can only be issued once, by the airplane manufacturer and the country where its built.

They could pull their authority to fly in the US. I can't read the original dutch article, so I'm not 100% sure which they are talking about.
 
aviopic
Posts: 2423
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:52 pm

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:18 am

Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 5):
If the FAA pulls the airworthiness certificate, I believe the plane is grounded worldwide.

Nope, FAA has no authority over all PH registered A/C.
KLM would have to stop with maintenance on all N.... Registered machines and/or all of the countries which are flying under FAA rules.

Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 5):
From my flight training, the airworthiness certificate can only be issued once, by the airplane manufacturer and the country where its built.

Airworthiness has nothing to do with it, we are talking about a maintenance license.

KLM is also doing maintenance for other operators(read US registered) operators and for that you need a FAA(FAR66/145) approval like you need an EASA(JAR66/145) approval for European A/C.


Willem
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:20 am

Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 5):
If the FAA pulls the airworthiness certificate, I believe the plane is grounded worldwide. From my flight training, the airworthiness certificate can only be issued once, by the airplane manufacturer and the country where its built.

I don't think this involves the airworthiness certificates, but rather the operating license. It wouldn't affect KLM's ability to fly their planes (outside of the US), but if the FAA does something other authorities tend to follow suit, so it would start to create a serious problem.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
lamedianaranja
Posts: 1195
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:21 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 6):
Nope, FAA has no authority over all PH registered A/C.

But who issues that Category 3 thing that forbids certain carriers to fly their own registered a/c into the US?

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 6):
KLM is also doing maintenance for other operators(read US registered) operators

I feel that's what the article is all about, not about forbidding KL to fly to the States. They'll revoke the license to do maintenance on N regs.
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
Fokker70NG
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:18 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:01 am

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 8):
I feel that's what the article is all about, not about forbidding KL to fly to the States. They'll revoke the license to do maintenance on N regs.

 checkmark  That's indeed what the article is about..

For which US-based airlines is KLM E&M doing maintenance? NW is one of them, aren't they?
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
 
Matt72033
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:03 pm

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:10 am

the only thing the FAA can do is revoke their licence to operate in the states, and work on N registered aircraft!

i know NW uses Das Air at LGW for some of their maintenance! certainly DC-10's anyway!
 
goaliemn
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:46 pm

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:37 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 6):
Nope, FAA has no authority over all PH registered A/C.

They have full authority over them when they are in US airspace. They can always deny them entry.

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 6):
Airworthiness has nothing to do with it, we are talking about a maintenance license.

like I said, I couldn't read the article..
 
User avatar
yowza
Posts: 4275
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:41 am

Two things:

I find it curious that people who can't read the article (non-Dutch speakers) have the most to say.

Secondly what brought all this on, is KL MX doing something in particular wrong or is it little things. Has any other major European airlien been through the same thing with the FAA?

YOWza
 
sunrisevalley
Posts: 4953
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:26 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:15 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 12):
Secondly what brought all this on, is KL MX doing something in particular wrong or is it little things. Has any other major European airlien been through the same thing with the FAA?

You should read all the postings thoroughly. It is reported to be administrative, in other words the paperwork is not up to snuff. This is nothing to do with a hands on the wrench issue.
For the bureaucrats in FAA and their equivalents this is unforgiveable.
 
AA777
Posts: 2358
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 7:07 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting A319114 (Reply 3):
The FAA criticism is especially aimed at KLM maintenance administration (they speak of 'inconsistencies'.

Ooh wonderful...just when I'm about to take KLM from IAD-AMS-DXB in less than a week. I'm taking AF on the way home... hopefully their maintenance is better? lol....though, if I didnt trust the airline I wouldnt ever take it....

-AA777
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4299
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:15 am

Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 11):
Quoting Aviopic (Reply 6):
Nope, FAA has no authority over all PH registered A/C.

They have full authority over them when they are in US airspace. They can always deny them entry.

Why is it I just knew this would be said!

The FAA have no authority over PH registered aircraft ANYWHERE, not even in US airspace. The Dutch authorities have full authority. Just like the FAA have full authority over N registered aircraft everywhere.

The operation of ALL aircraft engaged in "international civil aviation" is controlled by the Chicargo Convention of 1947 and the rules made under its authority by ICAO [International Civil Aviation Organisation].

If the FAA or any national authority has a problem with an airline or maintance organisation from another country, it first approaches the relevent authority, its only if this fails will it resort to any attempt to ban said airline/aircraft from US airspace and this is a double edge sword, particularly in the case of a first world country who would most likley ban N registered aircraft in return.

Having said all that it appears from other poster comments that this is a case of a maintance org wanting FAA approval to service N registered aircraft, so the issue of PH aircraft does not arise.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
AMFAproud
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:23 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:39 am

KLM must have caught the "scab" bug from NW!
 
iowaman
Posts: 3878
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:01 am

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 15):
The FAA have no authority over PH registered aircraft ANYWHERE, not even in US airspace. The Dutch authorities have full authority. Just like the FAA have full authority over N registered aircraft everywhere.

The U.S. can deny entry into the U.S. to any foreign aircraft.
 
APFPilot1985
Posts: 1840
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:51 pm

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:00 am

Quoting AMFAproud (Reply 16):
KLM must have caught the "scab" bug from NW!

how's work..... oh wait
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
AMSSFO
Posts: 912
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:42 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:17 am

It's clear that a lot of people apparently can not read Dutch and have no way to translate it, so I will give you some excerpts translated into English:
"The American aviation authority FAA requires that the KLM improves the work processes in the maintenance of American planes.
During a periodic inspection by the FAA, previous month, some findings seems to indicate a lack of discipline and not sticking to the procedures, according to the head of the technical service of the KLM, P. Somers.
Current FAA-license expires on 31 January 2006.
Although the findings are "not huge", KLM must take "acceptable correcting measures".
Klm-engineers have been worried for years about the security culture at KLM, wgich became clear in October from internal KLM - files.
Also the IVW (Dutch FAA) is carefully observing KLM. According to Somers, the head of the IVW, H. Nepperus, has let know that accurate corrections are needed.
After a strike at KLM technical service in 2002, the IVW made agreements with KLM to improve the work processes. The IVW demands that the technical service becomes "a more self-learned and self-improving organisation" The technical service does not always accurately follow all procedures. According to the IVW there is no "direct threat" to safety."
A KLM spokesman told the newspaper in a response that "the FAA have mainly found administrative matters that were inconsistently dealt with"."

So in summary, it's all about maintenance of N-registered planes. It's not the first time the authorities find "inconsistencies" but its mainly administrative issues.
 
jrosa
Posts: 351
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:06 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:37 am

This is a very old, old, fight between KLM and FAA.
It is big dogs fight  taekwondo  x  box 
 
APFPilot1985
Posts: 1840
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:51 pm

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:44 am

I think the bottom line is that
a)KLM is a very very safe Airline
b)a Clerical Error may have happened/being happening (repeatedly)
it will be sorted and I doubt any major consequences will be seen.
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
ehho
Posts: 769
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:26 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:03 am

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 19):
It's clear that a lot of people apparently can not read Dutch and have no way to translate it, so I will give you some excerpts translated into English

Thanks a lot AMSSFO! I realize that have not been diligent by not providing a more thorough translation from the outset. It's already good that there has not been any flaming yet on the thread due to misunderstanding each other. Nogmaals bedankt!

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 8):
They'll revoke the license to do maintenance on N regs.

Basically, that is indeed what the article implies, though it is pretty vague in its explanation. Thanks for pointing it out!
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
SWISSER
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:31 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:06 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 12):
I find it curious that people who can't read the article (non-Dutch speakers) have the most to say.

You are right on that one!

FILLER
FILLER
What time is top of descent?
 
FokkerVII
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:54 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:19 am

As these are mostly admin issues there does not seem to be any specific safety issue.
The FAA probably has issue with other companies along these lines as well.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5129
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:52 am

Well, much of the safety that we in the US take for granted today is the result of having specific procedures and documentation thereof when doing maintenance ("technical work" in Europe-speak) on aircraft. The FAA recognizes more and more that these "administrative" issues are friggin' CRITICAL when it comes to safety, because they define what wrenches to turn, where, and, most importantly, that the wrenches have indeed turned.

A good example of this kind of admin issue is the work that was done on the USExpress aircraft that crashed at Charlotte. The "admin" requirement was, among other things, that: (1) one must use the methodology specified on the work card, and no other, when rigging/testing the elevator cable; (2) someone who hadn't done it before had to be accompanied/monitored by someone who had; and (3) someone entirely different than the guys who did the work inspect it and sign off on it. BS administrative procedure, right? Tragically wrong. IIRC, the thing was done by someone unfamiliar, who didn't rig or test the rig properly, which was then signed off on by the "sup" who helped him. Result: improper rigging leading to an absence of full elevator authority which didn't become apparent until the thing, fully-loaded, rotated and promptly stood on its tail.

Another example is the COEx plane around Houston, I think, years ago, in which, IIRC, flight control surfaces weren't properly screwed back into place. Had proper procedure for doing the work and inspecting the work and documenting the inspection been followed, the a/c wouldn't have crashed.

The FAA can't inspect every repair every time. So it focuses on PROCEDURE. If every repair is made every time in accordance with the approved procedure, inspected in accordance with the procedure, and documented properly so we know it has been done, it goes a long way to minimizing stupid mistakes or just plain oversights that can have tragic consequences.
 
aogdesk
Posts: 748
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:26 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:41 pm

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 21):
b)a Clerical Error may have happened/being happening (repeatedly)

Clerical error? Would you classify secretaries signing off work (as happened in the not so distant past at one US major airline) as a repeated clerical error? By the way, your snide comment shows your lack of class.

wjcandee has very succinctly put the situation in perspective. Enough said.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4299
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:11 pm

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 17):
The U.S. can deny entry into the U.S. to any foreign aircraft.

Not as a "normal" or default condition, they have agreed to said access in return for US aircraft having equilivent access to other countries.

Of course then there are the NOT "normal" circumstances, in which case they CAN, but risk retaliation from the country whoses aircraft it denied access, by getting US aircraft denied access. I am still amazed that there has been no retaliation from European countries over the denial of access to European airline aircraft, while in flight.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
Matt72033
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:03 pm

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:54 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 15):
The FAA have no authority over PH registered aircraft ANYWHERE, not even in US airspace. The Dutch authorities have full authority. Just like the FAA have full authority over N registered aircraft everywhere.

The operation of ALL aircraft engaged in "international civil aviation" is controlled by the Chicargo Convention of 1947 and the rules made under its authority by ICAO [International Civil Aviation Organisation].

so surely that would mean the CAA over her in the UK only has jurisdiction over G registered aircraft?
how come the phuket 743 was grounded at LGW then?
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:42 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 15):
the Chicargo Convention of 1947

I think it was 1944

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 17):
The U.S. can deny entry into the U.S. to any foreign aircraft.

The US is a signatory to the International Air Transit Agreement which grants unlimited 1st freedom rights to other signatorys. But then again the US is also well known for ignoring international agreements.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4299
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:51 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 28):
so surely that would mean the CAA over her in the UK only has jurisdiction over G registered aircraft?
how come the phuket 743 was grounded at LGW then?

Illeaglly by international law.

What probably happened was that the CAA contacted the Thai authorities who were not able/willing to correct matters, so the CAA took unilateral action, as a safty matter, under UK law.

Could cause problems if the airlines country got really offended. But you will notice that this sort of thing happens only by first world authorities aganist third world airlines.

What happened when the FAA made similar noises to BA about the 3 engine 744 flight from the US west coast? After the usual political posing its has died a death and most likley never be heard from again.


Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
thegooddoctor
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:12 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:48 pm

KLM is very safe - this has to do with the maintainance agreements. As for the Dutch vs. non-dutch speaking inflamatory comments: Pipe down... No one has brought up the fact that this sort of warning is the same sort of rhetoric used to bring companies (not just aviation companies) into alignment with documentation. JHACO does this with hospitals when patient care documentation is a problem. I don't see hospitals shutting down left-and-right.

In four weeks (God willing there are no accidents people will, in turn, relate to this) everyone will have forgotten about this...

NW scabs, KLM maintainance warnings, yawn... I'll still fly either NW or KL over other carriers and nap peacefully without a second thought.
The GoodDoctor
 
SKA380
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:46 pm

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:10 pm

Aviopic is right!

From my understanding, this has very little to do with the mainline KLM, but rather KLM Technic.
FAA does a yearly inspection of all maintenance bases that CHOOSES to have a FAA (FAR66/145) approval. what this approval does, is that it allows you to issue FAA release on work that has been carried out by that maintenance base. Of course this is something KLM needs, as they are constantly doing work on American registered aircrafts.
This FAA inspection is a normal thing to go through, although not the most pleasant thing that happens during the year.
They usually always find something, and the maintenance base is given a timeline where these findings should be corrected. If they are not corrected within this timeline, FAA will revoke their FAR66/145 license. I see this more like a way for FAA to help us get better then anything else. Its always good to have some outsiders look at our organization, and see if something is not the way it should be.
So all of this is more normal then you think, and its just a coincidence that it has leaked to the press. KLM Maintenance will correct these findings, and everything will be back to normal.

Leif
 
drinkstrolley
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:50 pm

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:13 pm

Quoting Kappel (Reply 4):
From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 393 posts, RR: 0

Where is Suriname? Never heard of it..........
 
edoca
Posts: 666
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:30 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:01 pm

Quoting Drinkstrolley (Reply 33):
Quoting Kappel (Reply 4):
From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 393 posts, RR: 0

Where is Suriname? Never heard of it..........

Where is Hampshire? Never heard of that!
 Wink
 
kiwiandrew

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:06 pm

Quoting Drinkstrolley (Reply 33):
Where is Suriname? Never heard of it..........

 
goaliemn
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:46 pm

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:32 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 29):
But then again the US is also well known for ignoring international agreements.

29 posts.. I was waiting for a bash the US post  Smile
 
kaddyuk
Posts: 3697
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:04 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:40 pm

The FAA can prevent Aircraft which have been maintained by KLM flying into US airspace, that is it. If the aircraft were already on the ground then those aircraft would be stranded. This includes KLM's OWN aircraft AND those maintained by KLM. Regardless of registration and/or operator. NW and VS are the first two airline that i can remember off the top of my head who use KLM in AMS for Maintenance.

I doubt that the FAA would take action before EASA had. The EASA Part 145 requirements are far more restrictive and tough to pass than the equivilant FAA FAR-145 certificate. Therefore if its big enough for the FAA to complain, then EASA most certainly will be dealing with it. I'd also expect the FAA to take action via EASA. I doubt they'd revoke the right to fly in the USA because there would be a political uproar.
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
flyabunch
Posts: 443
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:42 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:35 am

The most important thing that I noticed in the translated copy (thank you) was that the Dutch aviation authority agreed that their were some issues to attend to. This whole thing has been blown out of proportion.

I am quite sure that it will be handled properly and quickly. I would fly KLM and any of the airlines that they perform service for without reservation (no pun intended!).

Someone just got a little sloppy with the paperwork. Easy to fix and no one here can tell me it hasn't happened in their line of work either.

Mike
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: FAA Threatens To Revoke KLM License

Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 36):
29 posts.. I was waiting for a bash the US post  

Bash? Why would you say that? Do you disagree with my comment?

Who is online