LAXintl
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SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:26 am

Orange County supervisors approved a $512-million improvement project that will include a new terminal and two parking structures at John Wayne Airport.

If approved by the FAA, preliminary construction on the five-year project should begin next summer.

As part of the project the airport will implement a $4.50 PFC ticket tax.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-airport21dec21,1,3670059.story


I have to say, its somewhat funny they are expanding the facility, as the airport is still restricted under a Federal Court consent decree limiting overall flights and passenger volume.

With the current year over year growth of about 5%, the airport is expected to reach its passenger limit of 10.3 million passengers during 2007. The airport does not get any relief until 2011 when the limit rises to 10.8 million.

Airlines have been forewarned that schedule/equipment adjustments might be required in coming years to ensure the airport remains within the agreed limits.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
HT
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
two parking structures

To my recent experience, these really are in need close to the main terminal at SNA. Nothing is more inconvenient than having a commuter flight out of SNA and not getting a parking spot that ensures a fast access to the terminal. Wasn´t there a while ago an automated train proposed to tlink the remote parking lot to the exisiting terminal ?

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
the airport is expected to reach its passenger limit of 10.3 million passengers during 2007. The airport does not get any relief until 2011 when the limit rises to 10.8 million.

AFAIK the cap at 10.3 mn pax is an agreement with those NIMBYs who are wary about noise. With a/c getting quieter and quieter, negotiation should start to limit the number of movements rather than the number of pax.

When having a chance, I prefer to use SNA over LAX for shorthauls ...
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
LAXintl
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sat Dec 24, 2005 8:50 am

The centerpiece of the expansion plan includes a new passenger terminal with six gates, 2,500 new parking spots and replacement of one current parking structures.

Quoting HT (Reply 1):
To my recent experience, these really are in need close to the main terminal at SNA. Nothing is more inconvenient than having a commuter flight out of SNA and not getting a parking spot that ensures a fast access to the terminal.

Actually I have found the parking at SNA quite convenient being directly connected indoors to the terminal. Assume you must have been at the long term lot, which actually will remain at its current location on the other side of the freeway.

Quoting HT (Reply 1):
Wasn´t there a while ago an automated train proposed to tlink the remote parking lot to the exisiting terminal ?

There was a proposed rail system that would link Irvine/SNA with South Coast Plaza and I believe it was a regional transportation center in Santa Ana. If I remember correctly Orange County voters turned down a billion dollar transportation bond measure a year or two ago that would have allowed for such a project.

Quoting HT (Reply 1):
AFAIK the cap at 10.3 mn pax is an agreement with those NIMBYs who are wary about noise. With a/c getting quieter and quieter, negotiation should start to limit the number of movements rather than the number of pax.

The 10.3 million cap was just agreed upon in 2002 as an amendment to the original 1985 court agreement. Its quite unlikely the authorities have the appetite to stir up things so soon with the quite wealthy neighboring communities.
I could instead see some action after the limit has been reached and upon the forced limitation of flights. At that point maybe the county would be able to get the 10.8million cap to go into affect a few years earlier.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
PHXinterrupted
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:27 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
Quoting HT (Reply 1):
To my recent experience, these really are in need close to the main terminal at SNA. Nothing is more inconvenient than having a commuter flight out of SNA and not getting a parking spot that ensures a fast access to the terminal.

Actually I have found the parking at SNA quite convenient being directly connected indoors to the terminal. Assume you must have been at the long term lot, which actually will remain at its current location on the other side of the freeway.

Yeah, parking at SNA is pretty easy compared to most airports. Of course, not as easy as say BUR.
Keepin' it real.
 
RichardJF
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:17 pm

What's going to happen to El Toro?.
Will it just become housing or something.
 
John
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:22 am

This is all good news, but that runway needs to be longer at SNA...it's too damn short!
 
PanAm747
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:45 am

El Toro is gone. Completely. The runways have been torn up, the structures are gone, and probably more cookie-cutter homes will go up. Take Amtrak's Pacific Surfliner to San Diego, and you'll see the remains of the base.

One of the runways, at almost 11,000 feet in length, was decried as "too short for safe passengers use" by some of the NIMBY's.

Don't be surprised if a "neighborhood grass-roots" coalition gets together and files lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit to stop ANY expansion or change of SNA. Of all the SoCal airports, Orange County has the wealthiest and best organized "concerned citizens" living near it.

I'll believe it when I see construction starting.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
LMP737
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:09 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6):
Of all the SoCal airports, Orange County has the wealthiest and best organized "concerned citizens" living near it.

And that is why there is no airport at EL Toro.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
lgbflttrainer
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:13 am

I actually think BUR has better organized citizens...after all, BUR has been trying for roughly 30 years to get a modern facility with (gasp!) jetways, but the NIMBYs in Burbank have been stopping it everytime is comes up for consideration.

At least SNA has a modern terminal, if not longer runways...
Overt enthusiast...like that's a BAD thing?
 
LAXintl
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sun Dec 25, 2005 5:37 am

Quoting John (Reply 5):
but that runway needs to be longer at SNA...it's too damn short!

I remember reading an article in the OC Register a while back that several parties had urged the airport board to look at extending the runway, however the county felt the topic would be "dead on arrival", and would even attempt to pursue it.

Quoting LGBFltTrainer (Reply 8):
BUR has been trying for roughly 30 years to get a modern facility with (gasp!) jetways

And the sad part is the airport has received what is basically free land to build a new modern and safer terminal via the huge plot that Lockheed has turned back over to the airport authority.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
RichardJF
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sun Dec 25, 2005 8:02 am

Could the 787-3 in a high density arrangement concievably use SNA on flights to SFO etc....
And that a slight runway extension might be quite saleable if combined with a deal on the 1500 mile perimeter rule at LaGuardia to allow for SNA-LGA.

Nimby's have to get around too. And you have to remember their mantra...
It's all about me.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sun Dec 25, 2005 8:19 am

The Amtrak station near Laguna Hills was at the end of the one of the runways at El Toro. I used to watch F/A-18's do touch'n'goes on that runway during the early 1990's.

Do you think the new terminal might have provisions for 1 or 2 international gates?
 
LAXintl
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sun Dec 25, 2005 8:34 am

Quoting RichardJF (Reply 10):
Could the 787-3 in a high density arrangement concievably use SNA on flights to SFO etc....
And that a slight runway extension might be quite saleable if combined with a deal on the 1500 mile perimeter rule at LaGuardia to allow for SNA-LGA.

There really is not much room for a runway expansion at SNA. Besides a short overrun areas the runways and airpotr is hemmed in by the 405 freeway on one side and the 73 on the other. Besides NIMBY opposition, the cost of detouring such roads would be significant.

In regards to the the 787-3, it would not fit at the SNA gates. The 787-3 is significantly larger sized then the B757 which is the largest passenger type serving the airport with wingspan of 170ft vs 124ft and length of 186ft vs 155ft.
In addition I see absolutely no need of a larger type at the airport particularly on a business market like SFO were frequency is the key, and is currently well served.
Even if the 787 could operate at SNA, the type would only serve to hasten the arrival of the facilities maximum court decreed passenger limits. Its very likely instead airlines will be forced to offer smaller capacity at the airport in years going forward to remain within the limits.

And lastly I dont quite understand what the restrictions LGA has to with SNA. If you are suggesting the airport needs NY service, I would say for the most part such service has been a failure. Both TWA and AA have operated such services in the past and now Continental only operates a single such flight using the small 737-700.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
LAXintl
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sun Dec 25, 2005 8:47 am

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 11):
Do you think the new terminal might have provisions for 1 or 2 international gates?

Nope, no such plans.

There is some current talk of whom will occupy the new facility. It was once reported SWA would be interesting in its use to allow it to be separated from the main terminal and rest of the airlines.
I suppose this is a good idea considering SWA is the number one airline with the greatest number of frequencies.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
RichardJF
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:12 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 12):
Even if the 787 could operate at SNA, the type would only serve to hasten the arrival of the facilities maximum court decreed passenger limits. Its very likely instead airlines will be forced to offer smaller capacity at the airport in years going forward to remain within the limits.

A court decreed passenger limit cap seems incredibly wobbly as opposed to noise and jet movement restrictions.
 
SFORunner
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:47 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
Actually I have found the parking at SNA quite convenient being directly connected indoors to the terminal. Assume you must have been at the long term lot, which actually will remain at its current location on the other side of the freeway.

UX flights arrive/leave from a "temporary" building at the south end of the main terminal building:

To get to it ... you've got to walk the entire length of the main terminal building, out a door, down a ramp. At this point, you're outside.

UX uses gates 12 -14 or 1-3. I forget which way the numbers run:

http://www.aa.com/content/images/aboutUs/terminals/terminal_SNA.gif

I would guess that the new terminal would replace this "temporary" building .....

[Edited 2005-12-25 01:49:13]

[Edited 2005-12-25 01:53:00]
 
LAXintl
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:55 pm

Quoting RichardJF (Reply 14):
A court decreed passenger limit cap seems incredibly wobbly as opposed to noise and jet movement restrictions.

We are lucky we have even close to the activity today that SNA has.

As background, in the late 70s, early 80s Orange County launched what would be termed a very significant expansion and replacement of the then rather "shack" like facilities.
In order to gain approval for this largest single project in Orange County history with the exception of Disneyland, the county and opponents agreed upon via a court decree in 1985 placing limits in number of flights, hours of operation and total passenger being serviced at the new facilities. The limits were for the most part considered quite adequate for decades to come.
The country was able to get some small relief in the number of flights and passenger totals via an amendment to the decree in 2002 which further reduced the hours of operation of the facility in return.

At the end of the day, while yes restrictive, the agreement has provided for the ability to service many millions of more passengers and flights then not having been able to build the new terminal in the 1980s at all.

Quoting SFORunner (Reply 15):
UX flights arrive/leave from a "temporary" building at the south end of the main terminal building:

To get to it ... you've got to walk the entire length of the main terminal building, out a door, down a ramp. At this point, you're outside.

Not very inconvenient in my mind, considering how compact SNA is compared to much larger facilities such as LAX.
No matter what, small prop operations would require you to exit and be outside at some point.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Mcmax
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:04 pm

After months of lurking around and reading everyone's informative posts on the airlines and the airline industry, I've finally decided to join and contribute to the forums. Since this topic involves something in my backyard, so to say, I've decided to make this my first post. And, please accept my apologies ahead of time--I'm an attorney by trade, and I tend to ramble on and on about things that interest me  Smile

--Max

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6):
El Toro is gone. Completely. The runways have been torn up, the structures are gone, and probably more cookie-cutter homes will go up.


Not quite true. While the good citizens of Orange County have indeed approved a law which makes it near impossible to build the airport (i.e., they re-zoned the land to non-airport uses), the pro-airport folks still haven't gone away completely yet. As I recall, correct me if I'm wrong, there is still one final legal maneuver left that they may attempt.

Additionally, the City of Los Angeles remains a wild card. Before James Hahn was defeated for re-election as mayor, he had written to the Navy (who owned El Toro) to request the sale of El Toro to the City of Los Angeles for development as an airport. While the Navy gave him short-shrift on this request (and OC citizens were riled to no end by this), who knows what the City of LA thinks they can get away with. As I understand though, the new mayor, Antonio Villaragosa, is proceeding with the minimal expansion of LAX rather than attempting to make a land grab in the OC.

While the physical land comprising El Toro has already been sold by the Department of the Navy to Lennar (a huge developer/home builder from Miami), the actual demolition of the runways has not yet occurred. Some buildings have been removed though. As someone who lives a little over a mile from the end of one of the runways, I am holding my breath until the first jackhammer starts destroying the runways. Until that time, the pro-airport folks aren't giving up yet.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6):
Don't be surprised if a "neighborhood grass-roots" coalition gets together and files lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit to stop ANY expansion or change of SNA. Of all the SoCal airports, Orange County has the wealthiest and best organized "concerned citizens" living near it.

As I understand it, the groups in the local areas surrounding John Wayne Airport (i.e., Newport Beach) have already entered into the settlement agreement with the County of Orange to amend their prior settlement agreement (which permitted the original expansion and new terminal in the 1990s) to permit a rise in the annual passenger limits, and for the new expansion of the terminal. Apparently, these groups agreed to the revise settlement terms and the expansion because of the real threat the Department of Transportation was no longer going to approve any caps on flight operations any more. These groups felt this was the better alternative rather than have an unlimited expansion at SNA.

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 11):
Do you think the new terminal might have provisions for 1 or 2 international gates?

As I understand it (my source being the Orange County Register--I can't find the exact link right now), the new expansion will have 1 or 2 gates which are international-capable, including immigration and customs facilities. About three years ago, Alaska was ready to start a non-stop flight to Vancouver from SNA, but cancelled it a couple weeks before it was to start when the DOT refused to grant final approval because of SNA's lack of international arrivals facilities (we were supposed to be on one of these flights!). I always thought it was rather stupid to require the international arrivals facilities at SNA for an incoming flight from Canada, especially since you pre-clear United States customs and immigration in Canada.

The Register reported that Alaska was interested in the international flights (I would presume to be to Vancouver, and perhaps Mexico). I also seem to recall that Air Canada has been on the waiting list to get slots at SNA for years now, but cannot begin service because of the lack of international arrivals facilities, and because slots are not that easy to come by at SNA.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 12):
In regards to the 787-3, it would not fit at the SNA gates. The 787-3 is significantly larger sized then the B757 which is the largest passenger type serving the airport with wingspan of 170ft vs 124ft and length of 186ft vs 155ft.

When the new terminal was built in the 1990s, two gates were capable of handling 767s. I think it is the two center gates, gates 8 and 9, currently occupied by America West and American, respectively. Is the 767 wingspan comparable to the 787-3's wingspan?

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 12):
If you are suggesting the airport needs NY service, I would say for the most part such service has been a failure. Both TWA and AA have operated such services in the past and now Continental only operates a single such flight using the small 737-700.

American used to run several flights a day to JFK from SNA. One of them was a red-eye, which got you into JFK early in the morning, which permitted great connections onward. I spoke to someone at the Admirals Club at SNA at that time, and they were concerned about the JFK flights because loads were not good. Given that an SNA-ORD flight was one of the "temporary" flight reductions for Spring 2006, I wouldn't plan on American adding any more flights from SNA to new destinations in the near future.
De minimis non curat lex tamen ego curao
 
LAXintl
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:04 pm

McMax welcome to a.net Appreciate your input.

Quoting McMax (Reply 17):
have already entered into the settlement agreement with the County of Orange to amend their prior settlement agreement

Correct the ammendment was entered into in 2002, and did provide for additional gate expansion.
The primary driving point of additional gates is the lack of gates for evening and early morning flights. One can see aircraft often double parked at gates during the early morning hours.

Quoting McMax (Reply 17):
As I understand it (my source being the Orange County Register--I can't find the exact link right now), the new expansion will have 1 or 2 gates which are international-capable, including immigration and customs facilities

Yes the Alaska Airlines incident is well remembered. Air Canada had also previously expresed its interest in serving the facility.

However my understanding is that the airport will not be international capable.
Apparently the Federal government was contacted whom felt that the projected activity did not warrant the granting of funding for staffing to make the facility a port of entry.
Another allowed option was for the airport and tenants to fund such services themselves via user fees, however the county concluded that the per passenger fees would have to be increased significantly and they would also receive significant opposition from airlines.


Quoting McMax (Reply 17):
Is the 767 wingspan comparable to the 787-3's wingspan?

The 787-3 wingspan is some 14 feet longer then the 767 and its lenght between 6-27ft more then the 767 depending on which version.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
HT
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:37 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
Quoting HT (Reply 1):
To my recent experience, these really are in need close to the main terminal at SNA. Nothing is more inconvenient than having a commuter flight out of SNA and not getting a parking spot that ensures a fast access to the terminal.

Actually I have found the parking at SNA quite convenient being directly connected indoors to the terminal. Assume you must have been at the long term lot,

While I had no problems to park my car on the preceeding weekend, on my second flight out of SNA mid October (18-OCT-2005 1449h AA 3161 to SJC) none of the 3 (?) parking structures close to the terminal (I see it as one terminal) had spaces to offer - well at least this was the official version until on my second drive-by I was able to sneak past one of the signs indicating "Lot full" for the multistorey car park opposite the terminal ... Big grin
Actually when walking across this parking structure I already made up my mind that it would be a rather easy task to add another 2 levels to that already big parking structure ...
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
highflier92660
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:53 am

The Orange County Register has another article on the subject of SNA expansion. (registration required)

http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/homepage/abox/article_906461.php

In synopsis, the expansion can be defined as a 2,500 car parking lot, 6 gates and 300,000 sq.ft. of boarding space with maybe a Starbucks and a news stand thrown in. It will be done in the same architectural style as the present terminal. Nothing will be done to rectify the glaringly short 5,700 ft. runway the affluent NIMBY"S of my hometown have imposed on all of us. As for the 10.8 million passenger limit, politicians come and go, dire air transportation needs eventually have a way of taking precedence over noise issues. I have an inkling that upper passenger limit is as eventually negotiable as the contract on a sports superstar.

Over the years the myopia of SoCal transportation planning has never failed to amaze me. With the infrastructure essentially in place, the 55, 405 and 73 freeways (bought and paid for) leading to the SNA airport and millions of square feet of office space within a 5-7 mile radius, Orange County airport is a vital commerce component that is not going anywhere. El Toro (Great Park) was a hideously expensive dream that, given the economic and engineering nightmare associated with bringing it to fruition, was best left on artists drawing boards.

I just wish that someday the political inertia will exist to extend that runway another 2,500 ft. I land my Cessna 210 in "Bugtussle", Ohio on more concrete than a Boeing 757-200 here in Orange County.

[Edited 2005-12-26 18:03:28]
 
thepilot
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:28 am

This sounds like good news. Whenever I fly into the LA area, I always fly into SNA with airlines or by myself. Will this have any effect on the GA portion of SNA?
Thanks.
From YVR
 
wedgetail737
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:57 am

This is probably a no-brainer, but would it be necessarily true that adding six new gates to the terminal would free up "slots" at SNA? Perhaps the additional capacity would allow the likes of Jetblue or Air Tran to fly into SNA.
 
LAXintl
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:17 am

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 22):
This is probably a no-brainer, but would it be necessarily true that adding six new gates to the terminal would free up "slots" at SNA? Perhaps the additional capacity would allow the likes of Jetblue or Air Tran to fly into SNA.

Not in the cards. The airport still very much remains under its court settlement limiting hours of operations, number of flights and total passenger count.
As such, the limit remains at 85 total average daily departures for commercial passenger or cargo airlines.

The additional gates are meant more to relieve crowding due to the rapid rise in passenger numbers (more larger aircraft types being used), and also to help with the lack of late night / early morning gates which sees aircraft being double parked at gates.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:31 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 12):
There really is not much room for a runway expansion at SNA. Besides a short overrun areas the runways and airpotr is hemmed in by the 405 freeway on one side and the 73 on the other. Besides NIMBY opposition, the cost of detouring such roads would be significant.

To speak with such authority on the matter, you should at least know what you are talking about. SNA has standard RSA's and room for two 500' EMAS installations which would provide SNA with an additional 1,000' of available runway. NIMBY's argue the extension would mean larger aircraft and "more" noise. Safety, in general, says otherwise when your existing runway is under 6,000'.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 18):
The 787-3 wingspan is some 14 feet longer then the 767 and its lenght between 6-27ft more then the 767 depending on which version.

The wing span and length is not an issue. Economical range from a short runway is.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:02 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6):
One of the runways, at almost 11,000 feet in length, was decried as "too short for safe passengers use" by some of the NIMBY's.

Any sort of aviation within that stupid county is tough to do...probably one of the most non-aviation friendly areas in the US.

Quoting McMax (Reply 17):
As someone who lives a little over a mile from the end of one of the runways, I am holding my breath until the first jackhammer starts destroying the runways.

I understand you live nearby and all, but don't you think the airport would have been better served as a military base (if the Marines hadn't been stupid), or as a new booming airport to support the booming LA area? I mean, you've had a look at the facility, doesn't that seem like such a waste to completely wipe off the map (like they plan to- nothing will remain), and turn it into a damned PARK? Sounds like a hippie idea to me.

Quoting McMax (Reply 17):
While the good citizens of Orange County have indeed approved a law which makes it near impossible to build the airport (i.e., they re-zoned the land to non-airport uses), the pro-airport folks still haven't gone away completely yet. As I recall, correct me if I'm wrong, there is still one final legal maneuver left that they may attempt.

Leave it to OC to tell the Navy and the DOT how the land will be handled. The Navy unfortunately took the low road here and didn't want to piss anyone off over there, but I think they have every right to say where that land goes- not just land, that airport.

I plan to be there along with many of my other former El Toro friends when they reopen it as an airport eventually. If not, we'll piss in their park.

DeltaGuy (Lived at El Toro for some time)
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
HT
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:12 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 24):
Quoting Laxintl (Reply 18):
The 787-3 wingspan is some 14 feet longer then the 767 and its lenght between 6-27ft more then the 767 depending on which version.

The wing span and length is not an issue. Economical range from a short runway is.

Well, while "Economy" is one point, finding a suitable aircraft stand at an airport is another point not to be neglected.
As indicated in this thread, apparently only the two center a/c stands at SNA are designed to cater for a B767 ...
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:28 am

Quoting HT (Reply 26):
Well, while "Economy" is one point, finding a suitable aircraft stand at an airport is another point not to be neglected.
As indicated in this thread, apparently only the two center a/c stands at SNA are designed to cater for a B767 ...

It's called a vacant gate arrangement where one or two adjacent gates are unavailable or Guage modified during use. This is done every day at just about every airport across the country and is not an issue.
 
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RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 20):
I just wish that someday the political inertia will exist to extend that runway another 2,500 ft.

I wish... I wish. But as I look down from google earth/maps, I see only about 1,000 feet if they build over the 73. But even that would make a *huge* difference.  Smile Although, for takeoff purposes, it seems there is another 500 ft to the north that could be utilized better.  scratchchin  Going from 5,700 ft to 7,200 ft would make a huge improvement in the economical range of all aircraft from SNA.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=sna+ai...26&spn=0.014965,0.051207&t=k&hl=en

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 20):
Over the years the myopia of SoCal transportation planning has never failed to amaze me.

I agree... I agree... Pisses me off!  hissyfit  This area could have had either a better freeway system or a subway system by now. Grr... (Its not just the airports that are screwed up.) While I would like to see ONT expanded, how does someone from the West end, south bay, or OC get there? Its one step from impossible during a busy business day.

I too was pro-El Toro. Sad to see it didn't happen. Alas, will the San Diego airport be caught in a similar situation? Grrr...

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
Mcmax
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:28 pm

RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:10 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 25):
I understand you live nearby and all, but don't you think the airport would have been better served as a military base (if the Marines hadn't been stupid), or as a new booming airport to support the booming LA area? I mean, you've had a look at the facility, doesn't that seem like such a waste to completely wipe off the map (like they plan to- nothing will remain), and turn it into a damned PARK? Sounds like a hippie idea to me.

I agree with you it does seem like a waste to tear down El Toro MCAS. However, it's not as simple as that. As I understand it, the big commercial pilot's union vehemently objected to the layout of the runways of El Toro. Apparently, the north-south aligned runway was directed towards Saddleback Mountain, and the pilots felt it was unsafe. If their concerns were heeded, both runways would have had to be torn up and realigned anyways, thereby negating some of the argument that a pre-built airport already existed.

Personally, I was torn on this issue. As someone who grew up around commercial airlines (my father worked for Western for many years), I would have loved to have a huge international airport nearby. However, as someone who also owns a house nearby, I also understood a large international airport would affect my investment terribly. It was a tough position to be in, DeltaGuy, and I'm not ashamed to say I put my personal needs ahead of the regional needs.

That being said, I still had doubts whether all the international airlines would have rushed down to a new El Toro airport to set up shop. LAX is a mere 45 minutes north of El Toro, and there are few regions in the US which can support two international airports of any size. As I think about it, only New York and the Miami/Ft. Lauderdale area come to mind. Wasn't that one of the reasons behind expaning Ontario Airport years back--that LA was trying to divert more traffic to Ontario to relieve congestion at LAX. LAX is even more busier than ever, and Ontario is significantly underused.

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 25):
Leave it to OC to tell the Navy and the DOT how the land will be handled. The Navy unfortunately took the low road here and didn't want to piss anyone off over there, but I think they have every right to say where that land goes- not just land, that airport.

I'd be careful with going down that line of argument. If we extend this argument, then the Navy should be able to set up a hazmat dump in any community without that community's input because it was good for the region. Fortunately, our various levels of government are wise enough not to implement a procedure like that.

If LAX doesn't want all the OC/Riverside/San Bernardino/Ventura County originating passengers to use LAX, then slap a user fee on us. That way, if we really want to use LAX instead of our own regional airport, then we'll have to pay for the privilege. I prefer this method much more than LA trying to *take* El Toro and develop it into an airport.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 27):
It's called a vacant gate arrangement where one or two adjacent gates are unavailable or Guage modified during use. This is done every day at just about every airport across the country and is not an issue.

I don't know if this would be feasible, as all 14 mainline gates are in use most of the day. I don't think SNA could spare four gates being used by two aircraft.
De minimis non curat lex tamen ego curao
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:40 am

Quoting Mcmax (Reply 29):
I don't know if this would be feasible, as all 14 mainline gates are in use most of the day.

Used by Group III aircraft (737's/320's and MD-80's) meaning you can park two 787-3's that don't even exist in physical form yet at the two Group IV gates surrounded by the Group III. The reduction as I said is from this arrangement:

757 - 757 - 757 - 757

converts to:

737 - 787 - 787 - 737
 
Mcmax
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:28 pm

RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:13 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 30):
Used by Group III aircraft (737's/320's and MD-80's) meaning you can park two 787-3's that don't even exist in physical form yet at the two Group IV gates surrounded by the Group III. The reduction as I said is from this arrangement:

757 - 757 - 757 - 757

converts to:

737 - 787 - 787 - 737

Boeing7E7--thanks for the diagram. I now understand what you were saying. However, this would also then depend on how the gates were allocated, and who operates what aircraft. Gates 8 and 9 (the middle ones which could accomodate the 767), are used by America West and American, respectively. (These are two of the closest gates to security and baggage claim). Gate 7 and Gate 10 are also used by America West and American, respectively, as well. Each airline at SNA has their own designated gates which they use through long-term leases. I think it would be doubtful America West or AA would be willing to let other airlines use their gates for the sake of getting a 787 or other larger aircraft in. When AA bought QQ, AA couldn't move QQ's gate over to Gate 11, but had to remain at Gates 13 and 14 at the end.

Of course, if the terminal is expanded, I'm sure the airlines will be jockeying around again.

--Max
De minimis non curat lex tamen ego curao
 
Coronado990
Posts: 1312
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:12 am

RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:17 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 28):
I too was pro-El Toro. Sad to see it didn't happen. Alas, will the San Diego airport be caught in a similar situation? Grrr...

Personally, I'm afraid of the day Miramar becomes available in San Diego. I can see years of fighting and bickering dividing our county between "north and south" and "us and them". Too bad. The location is almost perfect. The approach path to Miramar is great but the departure end has many affluent people who are probably are ready to put up a fight.

We need an airport with a departure path over the ocean and there is one such location with no houses located exactly 40 miles north of SAN and exactly 40 miles south of SNA and could serve both counties with cargo and international flights while maintaining Lindbergh and John Wayne for the domestic stuff.
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:37 am

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 32):
The approach path to Miramar is great but the departure end has many affluent people who are probably are ready to put up a fight.

Stage 4 changes that. Have you seen the projected 787 and A350 noise footprints?

The 85 cnel is within the fenceline and the 65 would just barely cross the 805. East Miramar is even better placing La Jolla outside the contour all together. Even Orange County will have trouble complaining. By the time a facility would open at Miramar a full 20 years will have passed. There are several tricks by then that could be employed. LAAS coupled approaches and displaced thresholds would decrease the arrival noise footprint up to a half mile in each direction. No snow concern opens the window for in pavement approach lights.
 
Coronado990
Posts: 1312
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:12 am

RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:19 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 33):
Stage 4 changes that. Have you seen the projected 787 and A350 noise footprints?

You know how So Cal politics works Boeing7E7. Stage IV does not change a child holding up a burning airplane and crying that they don't want an airplane crashing into their house.

But we'll keep Miramar discussions for another time. I just like the idea of an airport near the OCE VORTAC (Stuart Mesa) for not only overwater departures, but from a marketing stand point. The population of both counties combined is about 6 million people and an international airline is more inclined to serve this airport opposed to an stand alone airport in San Diego or Orange County.
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: SNA-John Wayne Terminal Expansion Approved

Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:41 am

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 34):
You know how So Cal politics works Boeing7E7.

And an airport at Miramar has about a 70% approval rating amoung voters. Passed in a landslide the last time around.

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 34):
Stage IV does not change a child holding up a burning airplane and crying that they don't want an airplane crashing into their house.

The irony is that Commercial Aviation is safer than Miramar's present training use, or in the case of Brown the cargo option you refer to (I remember the crying children) it's extensive GA use without a proper full functioning tower or ILS.

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