Concorde001
Topic Author
Posts: 1186
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EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:55 pm

It seems EOS had a difficult month in October!


UK AIRPORT:
STANSTED
FOREIGN AIRPORT:
NEW YORK (JF KENNEDY)
THIS MONTH TOTAL SCHEDULED PAX:
255


Taken from:
International Air Pax Traffic Route Analysis Table 12
http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?ca...=80&pagetype=88&sglid=3&fld=200510



With 48 seats offered on its daily STN-JFK route, EOS carried on average 8 passengers every day for the whole of October....ouch!

The CAA doesn't have the stats on JFK-STN - maybe EOS are doing better there than STN-JFK.
The stats for November have not been published yet on the CAA website - it would be interesting to see what the loads are like considering Maxjet started JFK-STN on 1st Nov!

Slightly off topic, but it seems BA did very well in October on its MAN-JFK flight, which is incidently wholly reliant upon O&D traffic:
UK AIRPORT:
MANCHESTER
FOREIGN AIRPORT:
NEW YORK (JF KENNEDY)
THIS MONTH TOTAL SCHEDULED PAX:
11,425
 
BBJII
Posts: 831
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:22 pm

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:00 pm

October stats are worthless. The hadn't been running very long at all.

Wait for November and December.


  

[Edited 2005-12-24 14:22:46]
Remember: The Bird Hit You, You Didn't Hit The Bird.....
 
Scottiedog
Posts: 146
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RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:01 pm

Quoting Concorde001 (Thread starter):
Slightly off topic, but it seems BA did very well in October on its MAN-JFK flight, which is incidently wholly reliant upon O&D traffic:
UK AIRPORT:
MANCHESTER
FOREIGN AIRPORT:
NEW YORK (JF KENNEDY)
THIS MONTH TOTAL SCHEDULED PAX:
11,425

Unfortunately that gives an average load of 368 - which is a bit big for a 767. Did you by any chance forget that PIA operate the route as well?

Oh well - Happy Christmas everybody.  veryhappy 
 
Concorde001
Topic Author
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RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:08 pm

Quoting BBJII (Reply 1):
October stats are worthless. The hadn't been running very long at all.

What for November and December

You are right - just realised they started the route on 25th October. So, if they carried 255 passengers for the remaining six days of October, they carried on average 42.5 passengers on every flight! Pretty impressive!

Quoting ScottieDog (Reply 2):
Unfortunately that gives an average load of 368 - which is a bit big for a 767. Did you by any chance forget that PIA operate the route as well?

Sorry - totally forgot about PIA! But considering PIA operate MAN-JFK 3 times a week, most of the passengers must be BA's!

Merry Christmas everyone!  Wink
 
BestWestern
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RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:10 pm

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 3):
You are right - just realised they started the route on 25th October. So, if they carried 255 passengers for the remaining six days of October, they carried on average 42.5 passengers on every flight!

These figures are return, not single. Average 21 per flight (which included the inagural flight).
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
mika
Posts: 2810
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RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:19 pm

Mark my word, both EOS and maxjet will be tits up within a year and a half.
 
BigGSFO
Posts: 2214
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:27 am

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:45 pm

Quoting Mika (Reply 5):
Mark my word, both EOS and maxjet will be tits up within a year and a half.

I haven't heard this expression before and it totally made my morning!  rotfl 
 
Grbld
Posts: 349
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:25 pm

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 12:09 am

Quoting Mika (Reply 5):
Mark my word, both EOS and maxjet will be tits up within a year and a half.

Do you have any further argumentation of this? The market segment that they are in is very lucrative indeed and although they might not survive together, maybe one will. EOS has been the best funded startup airline ever, so they have quite a long breath.

I know the figures add up for BBJs and A319CJs, a 757 is a bit more risky but a 767 cuts right into your margins if you have a quiet month. I wonder why they didn't start off with a BBJ and grow as the load factors increased, using the BBJ to explore new city pairs at relatively low costs.

Grbld
 
SNATH
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RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 12:21 am

Slightly off-topic, but do MaxJet and/or EOS also carry cargo?

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
mika
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2000 7:53 am

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 12:56 am

Quoting Grbld (Reply 7):
Do you have any further argumentation of this? The market segment that they are in is very lucrative indeed and although they might not survive together, maybe one will. EOS has been the best funded startup airline ever, so they have quite a long breath.

I don't have much else to base this on than my gut feeling and what i've seen happen in the airline industry in the past. That's enough for me. I add to that the inate tendency that most people have to both feel and show themselves off in a as high social class as possible. I for one would rather be for example a HON or Senator with an all-class carrier like LH where i can feel special among people who have not chosen or had the direct ability to pay for the fare in my class (be it business or first or whatever class). It does sound sad and abit tragic but i do believe that this kind of thinking and acting is very common, regardless if most of us want to admit it or not, and an all business/first carrier like EOS or Maxjet don't give any room for it.

Again, 1,5 years from now i am very certain that you will see both these carriers tits up and out of operation.
 
WindowSeat
Posts: 1198
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:01 am

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:01 am

Quoting Grbld (Reply 7):
I wonder why they didn't start off with a BBJ and grow as the load factors increased, using the BBJ to explore new city pairs at relatively low costs.

Using a BBJ with the current seat configuration that they have on the 757s would afford them far less seats than the 48 they have on the 757. With that few seats it is all dependent on the yield and not worth taking the risk. If they did put the 48 seats in a BBJ or a 319CJ, then how are they different from PrivatAir and Lufthansa's all business class service.

Also, they are going for a tried and tested route, where we know for a fact that business travel between the two cities is very very lucrative. Don't see a reason to explore other city pairs in such an infancy stage.

cheers
I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
 
MidnightMike
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:07 am

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:07 am

Quoting Mika (Reply 5):
Mark my word, both EOS and maxjet will be tits up within a year and a half.

My money is on Maxjet, if they can sign up a Frequent Flyer program with a partner, that would be the final piece to the puzzle.

The price is right for a biz class airline, hell, this year I went to the UK twice for business on United, if I have to do that again, I am going to have my company fly me from LAX to New York so that I can catch Maxjet, looks like they have a better product!
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Kahala777
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RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:16 am

Quoting Concorde001 (Thread starter):
Slightly off topic, but it seems BA did very well in October on its MAN-JFK flight, which is incidently wholly reliant upon O&D traffic

Check your facts.... British Airways sells plenty of connections via Manchester!

KAHALA777
 
Indio66
Posts: 403
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:22 am

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:37 am

I think that EOS will fail because (i) its too expensive compared to AA, VS, BA business class, (ii) business travelers want to go to LHR for London business and connections, (iii) business travelers like a variety of flights to choose from, especially late departures (in each direction), and (iv) many of the large purchasers (i-banks, law firms and so on) have good corporate deals (again, on VS, AA, BA).

MaxJet may do a little better because the rates are much cheaper.

Just my two cents.
 
Concorde001
Topic Author
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RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:49 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 12):
Check your facts.... British Airways sells plenty of connections via Manchester!

They may sell connections, but I doubt that is the primary purpose of the flight. BA's MAN-JFK flight is primarily concerned with O&D traffic - I remember looking at 2004 statistics which showed approx 90% of traffic on the route as point to point. BA use LHR as their primary hub with Gatwick second.
 
samL
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:04 am

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:32 am

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 14):
They may sell connections, but I doubt that is the primary purpose of the flight. BA's MAN-JFK flight is primarily concerned with O&D traffic -

Perhaps connections offered at the US end rather than through MAN are more significant
 
SNATH
Posts: 3049
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:23 am

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:44 am

Quoting Indio66 (Reply 13):
I think that EOS will fail because (i) its too expensive compared to AA, VS, BA business class

From what I've seen, EOS really seems to target F class passengers.

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
BBJII
Posts: 831
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RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:44 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 8):
Slightly off-topic, but do MaxJet and/or EOS also carry cargo?

EOS...yes...
Not sure of all the facts...but @ STN there's a truck that goes from the Inbound to the Cargo centre (not Fedex) after every flight.
It Returns with 2-3 pallets for the outbound.

MAXJET....I heard something about a possible link up with UPS, for NYC-LON-NYC urgent packages.

 wave 
Remember: The Bird Hit You, You Didn't Hit The Bird.....
 
DavidT
Posts: 461
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:37 am

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:48 am

Glad to see MAN-JFK is doing well. I was one of those 11,425 pax  Smile The flights were chock-a-block full.

I hope both Maxjet and Eos survive. Although my gut instinct tells me that won't happen.

Maxjet offer a really good product for the money, and Eos has a simply superb seat. It's what Club World should be  Smile
 
MidnightMike
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:07 am

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 5:07 am

Quoting Indio66 (Reply 13):
I think that EOS will fail because (i) its too expensive compared to AA, VS, BA business class, (ii) business travelers want to go to LHR for London business and connections, (iii) business travelers like a variety of flights to choose from, especially late departures (in each direction), and (iv) many of the large purchasers (i-banks, law firms and so on) have good corporate deals (again, on VS, AA, BA).

EOS provides First Class service, so, you need to compare EOS to the airlines first class service......
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StanstedFlyer
Posts: 113
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RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:23 am

Quoting Indio66 (Reply 13):
(ii) business travelers want to go to LHR for London business and connections, (iii) business travelers like a variety of flights to choose from,

Interesting points, but it can be quicker to the city from Stansted - Rail Express, change to DLR. Heathrow relies mainly on the Tube and getting accross London that way sometimes isn't much fun.

Also plenty of Euro connections via EasyJet & Ryanair. Ok, so the service isn't as good, but if it goes where you want, jump on.

View the photos by C Newman on Airliners.net!
 
legendDC9
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:24 am

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:43 am

Quoting Indio66 (Reply 13):
MaxJet may do a little better because the rates are much cheaper.

How do you figure? Their rates make no sense. The 767 is so expensive to operate that they need 150% load factor to break even on a $1000 RT and they sell seats for far less. If they are in the business of losing money, they are doing one hell of a hell of a job. They did not start out with that much money, they can't be doing all that great. There is a reason business class costs more money, it's because service costs money. If you just give it away you will not be in business for long. As former Legend... I have seen that before.
 
luvflng
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 8:59 am

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:38 am

I agree with LegendDC9 that right now use of B767 is not making sense.

Doing a little bit of research on Airline Monitor, I found that on average it cost an airline operating B767 $4606.04 per block hour. Also the aforementioned source used 449 miles per block hour as the average speed of the aircraft.

The distance between JFK and STN is 3471 mile as reported by the great circle mapper service (http://gc.kls2.com)

Hence it takes on average 7.73 hours for B767 to fly this distance at 449 mpbh resulting in one way trip cost of $35,607.04.

Now, taking into consideration a 65% load factor, it results in 30 seats out of 46 being occupied. $35,607.04/30 = $1,186.90 cost per sold seat. I went to Max Jet's website and priced a O/W trip to Stansted at $679.00;

Surely at these prices they will not be able to cover their operating expenses let alone overhead expenses such as administration and selling.

I certainly hope that these carriers survive because they are innovative and push the envelope in the aviation industry. It will take however, some tweaking in their strategy to induce loyalty and demand for this product.

luvflng
Radar Contact Terminated, Squawk VFR
 
FCYTravis
Posts: 1172
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RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 12:53 pm

Y'all are getting the two airlines confused.

EOS has the 48-seat B757s. MaxJet has 102 seats in their B767s.
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
kubus
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RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:10 pm

I just had to sign up to post here, long time lurker, about 4 years I think.

Luvflng,
You forgot one very major difference between EOS and MaxJet. MaxJet configured their 762's with 102 seats.
So with 65% load factor it comes out to about $540. Also keep in mind that those $679 seats are limited, for example Jan 3rd return flight has them sold out already, next one up is $979.
Another thing about MaxJet is that yes they have Cargo operation, and also 757 in charter service as well as 2nd and 3rd 762 coming online to make JFL-STN flight daily, open Dulles-STN daily I think end of Feb or beg March. The 3rd 762 is for spares and for charter operation as well.
So their business is expending and also is not focused or more like dependent on one source of income.
I would like to see what MaxJet's real load factors are. From what I've seen and read, they are higher then 65%, hence going to daily flight and 2nd route.
 
B707Stu
Posts: 893
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:15 pm

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:30 pm

Quoting Concorde001 (Thread starter):
Slightly off topic, but it seems BA did very well in October on its MAN-JFK flight, which is incidently wholly reliant upon O&D traffic:
UK AIRPORT:
MANCHESTER
FOREIGN AIRPORT:
NEW YORK (JF KENNEDY)
THIS MONTH TOTAL SCHEDULED PAX:
11,425

Someone beat me to it, but you left out PK flights, whether they were daily or 3x a week, they're all wide-bodied either 777 or 743.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 12):
Check your facts.... British Airways sells plenty of connections via Manchester!

True. I witnessed that last week. Both internal UK flights and some European destinations connect through MAN.
 
SNATH
Posts: 3049
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:23 am

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:40 am

Quoting BBJII (Reply 17):
EOS...yes...
Not sure of all the facts...but @ STN there's a truck that goes from the Inbound to the Cargo centre (not Fedex) after every flight.
It Returns with 2-3 pallets for the outbound.

MAXJET....I heard something about a possible link up with UPS, for NYC-LON-NYC urgent packages.



Quoting Kubus (Reply 24):
Another thing about MaxJet is that yes they have Cargo operation,

(Kubus, welcome!)

So it looks as if both airlines are carrying some cargo for extra revenue. A great plan if you ask me!

There was alslo some indication that Primaris was going to do the same when/if they start up with an all business class. (Incidentally, any news from them? Has anyone heard anything?)

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
MidnightMike
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:07 am

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:16 am

Quoting Luvflng (Reply 22):
Doing a little bit of research on Airline Monitor, I found that on average it cost an airline operating B767 $4606.04 per block hour. Also the aforementioned source used 449 miles per block hour as the average speed of the aircraft.

I am guessing that your numbers are from a 767, equipped with 3 class service. Since MaxJet, has less seats and a standard Business Class service, it should be a little cheaper to operate than an airline equipped with the standard 3 class service. Also, their aircraft could be/may be a little lighter, less people, less seating, less equipment, could maybe save them 30 minutes to 60 minutes in fuel cost, less wear & tear on the engines, never know.....
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Brido
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RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:36 pm

Quoting Mika (Reply 9):
I add to that the inate tendency that most people have to both feel and show themselves off in a as high social class as possible.

You mean: Like saying things like this?

Quoting Mika (Reply 5):
Mark my word, both EOS and maxjet will be tits up within a year and a half.

High social class indeed.
 
kubus
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 12:49 pm

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:53 pm

I really hope MaxJet and EOS will survive and find the niche with services they offer. MaxJet especially is not only hitting the business market but also people like me. I travel at least 4 times a year between US and EU. Most of my flying is Star Alliance so I usually do upgrade to either Envoy on US or Business on LOT, but when I can't it really sucks. Next trip I have is for March and I'm already planning it on MaxJet. I will pay the premium (considering I have to get PIT-JFK and STN-WAW flights separate) to fly them. The only problem right now is poor connections in EU STN-WAW-STN sector. MaxJet leaves STN early, SkyEurope has once daily that comes in at 12:30PM. Hope the Dulles flight will offer better connection.
 
David_itl
Posts: 5970
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:41 pm

PK's MAN-JFK service attracts very little traffic - a lot less than 10,000 passengers a year.

BA may well offer connections out of MAN but, it does seem rather pointless to ignore...

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 14):
BA's MAN-JFK flight is primarily concerned with O&D traffic - I remember looking at 2004 statistics which showed approx 90% of traffic on the route as point to point

which comes from the CAA passenger survey!

David
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15326
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: EOS October Loads For STN-JFK

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting BBJII (Reply 1):
October stats are worthless. The hadn't been running very long at all.

Uh huh...they wish...it's not going to get better unless they're going for Independence Air's breakeven load factors.
E pur si muove -Galileo