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jfklganyc
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End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:13 am

As a LaGuardia man, I miss the days of Eastern, TWA, UA, and AA widebody service on the short runways at LGA. DL is the only carrier left with regular widebody service into and out of LGA.

My concern is, with all of the reallocation of 767s to the int'l markets, will there be any left to run a route like LGA-ATL?
Ironically, its seems that DL has actually increased widebody service from ATL over the past few months. We currently see a nice mix of 763/764 service.

Any thoughts?

PJ
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:15 am

The domestic 767-300s will NOT be moved to international services. Only 8 767-400ERs will be moved to transatlantic service.
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SESGDL
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:28 am

DL still will continue to operate 25 domestic 767-300s. They are not ETOPS certified and therefore will stay as domestic widebodies. DL will still likely put 2-3 763s into LGA a day from ATL. 767-400s will likely end service to LGA due to their push into Europe, but ATL-LGA is a very high-capacity market, 767-300s are needed. DL's 13 remaining domestic 767-400s will fly Hawaii nonstops, a couple TPA/MCO flights in between, and the usual LAX, LAS, SEA, SLC flights from ATL. Time will tell if the 767-400 returns in the summer on ATL-LGA.

Jeremy
 
LGA777
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:08 am

Delta's Dec 1st schedule change domestically saw a big reduction in aircraft size on key routes like LGA-ATL and ATL-Florida specifically MCO. Many of the ATL-MCO flights that were 764 are now 757 and the twice a day 777 is gone.
LGA-ATL went from I think 9 767's, a mix of 200,300, and the one -400 to 3 763's, many of the former 767 flights are actually MD88's, as is LGA-NAS.

LGA777
 
apodino
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:25 pm

Personally, I think this is a great thing. I don't trust widebodies at all on the 7000 ft runways in LGA. In fact, a few years ago, when I had to fly out of LGA on DL, I went out of my way to made sure I was on either a 737 or an MD88, just because of that. The biggest plane that should be in LGA is the 757, and that plane had excellent performance characteristics in an airport like LGA. Otherwise, Widebodies have no business at LGA, send them all to JFK and EWR where they belong.
 
Kahala777
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:37 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 2):
DL's 13 remaining domestic 767-400s will fly Hawaii nonstops, a couple TPA/MCO flights in between, and the usual LAX, LAS, SEA, SLC flights from ATL. Time will tell if the 767-400 returns in the summer on ATL-LGA

Dont forget ATL-SFO; SFO-HNL; LAX-HNL; LAX-OGG!  wink 

KAHALA777
 
LGA777
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:53 pm

Apodino, no offense but your logic is little off. On LGA's short runways DL's very powerful 767's are usually airborne in about 4000 feet. A ATL bound MD88 with a full load people is close to Max Gross Takeoff weight, and will usually use 5000-6000 feet of runway to get airborne, occasionally more. If I where flying DL out of LGA I would feel 100 pct safer on a 767 than an MD88. I am not an expert but I do work for a DL competitor in a LGA ramp tower and watch these planes takeoff usually 5-6 days a week and I have 20 years in LGA so trust me please on this.
Judging from your profile you are also a knowledgeable person with these type matter so I hope my comments might make sense. Happy Holidays.

Respectfully

LGA777
 
Kahala777
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:11 pm

Quoting Apodino (Reply 4):
I don't trust widebodies at all on the 7000 ft runways in LGA.

Some past widebodies with successful New York.LGA schedules:

Air Canada 767-200; 767-300
Air Canada L1011

American Airlines 767-200; 767-300
American Airlines DC-10

Delta Airlines L1011

Eastern Airlines A300
Eastern Airlines L1011

United Airlines DC-10

TWA L1011


KAHALA777
 
LGA777
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:12 am

To add to Kahala777's comments UA also operated the 762 in the mid 80's (to ORD and DEN) and CO operated the A-300 in the late 80's to IAH.

Today AA 763's and AC 762/763's are still a very common sight at LGA on equipment subs.

Regards

LGA777
 
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:19 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 1):
The domestic 767-300s will NOT be moved to international services. Only 8 767-400ERs will be moved to transatlantic service.

Incorrect. Some 767-300ER aircraft currently assigned domestic routes will be converted to INTL OPS as well.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:40 am

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 9):
Incorrect. Some 767-300ER aircraft currently assigned domestic routes will be converted to INTL OPS as well.

I meant the non-ERs.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
apodino
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:11 am

I am not disputing the fact that airlines have run widebodies successfully into LGA in the past. That doesn't mean I have to be comfortable flying widebodies into that airport. The runway at DCA is only 150 ft shorter and widebodies have never operated into that airport. The runway at MDW is about as long as LGA maybe about 500 feet shorter, and look what happened to a 737 there the other day? Plus in BOS, they have a 7000 ft runway and a 7800 ft runway, yet more often than not widebody aircraft and a lot of narrowbody aircraft are always requesting a longer runway at that airport. I just don't trust widebody aircraft on shorter runways, because there are too many things that can go wrong, and it can be russian roulette especially in bad weather.

I suspect if the public knew how short the runways were at LGA, DCA, MDW, and SNA in relation to most of the big airports, there would be a lot less demand for travel into these airports. Thats why I think the recent WN incident will have major reprucussions at these airports as time goes along.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:21 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 11):
I suspect if the public knew how short the runways were at LGA, DCA, MDW, and SNA in relation to most of the big airports, there would be a lot less demand for travel into these airports. Thats why I think the recent WN incident will have major reprucussions at these airports as time goes along.

I think most people are aware how short the runways are at LGA. Your argument is unfounded.

You have every right to be afraid, but note it is just that - your fear!
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JRadier
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:31 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 11):
Plus in BOS, they have a 7000 ft runway and a 7800 ft runway, yet more often than not widebody aircraft and a lot of narrowbody aircraft are always requesting a longer runway at that airport. I just don't trust widebody aircraft on shorter runways, because there are too many things that can go wrong, and it can be russian roulette especially in bad weather.

What kind of widebody flights, what kind of narrowbody flights? LGA-ATL is a relatively short flight for a 767, so not much fuel on board. This makes that the 767 has a lot of power to spare, as opposed to a MD-88 for wich it is a longer route (seen from a max. range point of view). I know I would rather be in a 767 with a lot of power to spare.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:31 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Thread starter):
I just don't trust widebody aircraft on shorter runways, because there are too many things that can go wrong, and it can be russian roulette especially in bad weather.

Seems like your trying to say that widebody ops at LGA is MORE dangerous than narrow body ops yet I can not recall one incident where a widebody went off the edge of one of LGA's runways. In fact, I remember several narrow body incidents along those lines. So, statistically, widebodies at LGA are safer.
 
gigneil
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:39 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 11):
The runway at DCA is only 150 ft shorter and widebodies have never operated into that airport.

Hardly conclusive, since the reasoning for that restriction is ramp space not runway length.

N
 
bucky707
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:55 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 13):
What kind of widebody flights, what kind of narrowbody flights? LGA-ATL is a relatively short flight for a 767, so not much fuel on board. This makes that the 767 has a lot of power to spare, as opposed to a MD-88 for wich it is a longer route (seen from a max. range point of view). I know I would rather be in a 767 with a lot of power to spare

LGA-ATL is a medium length flight for the 88. I have flown the 88 from LGA to DFW when we still had that route...........still plenty of power to spare. Never have felt like the 88 didn't have enough power to go anywhere from LGA.
 
NADC10Fan
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 2:17 am

Quoting LGA777 (Reply 8):
To add to Kahala777's comments UA also operated the 762 in the mid 80's (to ORD and DEN) and CO operated the A-300 in the late 80's to IAH.

Today AA 763's and AC 762/763's are still a very common sight at LGA on equipment subs.

You missed a classic wide-body! My own namesake - National Airlines' DC10-10s and -30s - also operated out of LGA ...
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Cory6188
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 2:22 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 11):
The runway at DCA is only 150 ft shorter and widebodies have never operated into that airport. The runway at MDW is about as long as LGA maybe about 500 feet shorter, and look what happened to a 737 there the other day?

Then don't ever fly into OGG from the mainland. Its runway is only 6995', but there are 767s going as far as ATL, ORD, IAH, and DFW.
 
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STT757
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:04 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 4):
don't trust widebodies at all on the 7000 ft runways in LGA

I remember flying LGA-MIA on a Eastern L1011 in December '89, the flight was originally scheduled to depart at around 7Pm but we were delayed because of a Snow storm until 11pm. When we took off it was still snowing really hard and I remember thinking about skidding off the runway and into Flushing bay.

Take off was fine though and I even remember the movie, "Honey I shrunk the Kids".
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STT757
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:06 am

Quoting LGA777 (Reply 8):
To add to Kahala777's comments UA also operated the 762 in the mid 80's (to ORD and DEN) and CO operated the A-300 in the late 80's to IAH.

CO flew DC-10-10s into LGA from Houston in the Eighties, also the latest CO flew A300s into LGA was 1991 or very early 1992 (from Houston).
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
lat41
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:26 am

Dosen't the lack of widebody operation at DCA have someting more to do with runway loading and the radius of taxiways than purely the airstrip length as mentioned above?


Cheers
 
JRadier
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:20 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 16):
LGA-ATL is a medium length flight for the 88. I have flown the 88 from LGA to DFW when we still had that route...........still plenty of power to spare. Never have felt like the 88 didn't have enough power to go anywhere from LGA.

I'm not saying it doesn't have enough power, but it has less power to spare in case of an emergency then a lightly loaded 767 (wich is what you get when you put it on such a 'short' route
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OOer
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:31 am

Personally, I would feel the safest on a 757, I have seen 757 takeoff from JAC...which has a shorter runway, and is at an elevation of over 7000 feet...which means less lift. The 757 is an awesome plane!!!!
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:59 pm

"Quoting JFKLGANYC (Thread starter):
I just don't trust widebody aircraft on shorter runways, because there are too many things that can go wrong, and it can be russian roulette especially in bad weather. "

Um, I never said that . . . Also, I highly disagree with the statment.

I see no problem with widebody service at LGA. As a matter of fact, at a capacity controlled airport, widebodies are the solution...not the problem.

PJ
 
lincoln
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:04 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 11):
The runway at DCA is only 150 ft shorter and widebodies have never operated into that airport.

I could be wrong, but I would imagine in addition to the ramp limitations listed above, the permiter restrictions on DCA flights also has something to do with why airlines don't see a huge need to fit widebodies in there... I think the runway is the least of their concerns.

Lincoln
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apodino
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:27 am

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 25):
the permiter restrictions on DCA flights also has something to do with why airlines don't see a huge need to fit widebodies in there

LGA also has the same perimeter restrictions, and I believe they are more restrictive than DCA, since some DCA carriers are exempt from this.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 12):

I think most people are aware how short the runways are at LGA. Your argument is unfounded.

Most people who know a thing or two about aviation yes. Most people in the public who are most of the passengers, no. In fact, when the plane went off the runway in LGA, the reporter said that MDW doesn't have the long 10000 ft runways that airports like LGA do. Of course, we know that the runways are much shorter than that. My other issue with widebodies is the north end where the 22 threshold is. This is not reclaimed land, but rather on a hard top pier thats only supported by concrete supports underneath. I don't know how much weight these are capable of supporting, but when you get heavier airplanes, I get more nervous.

And when there are two other airports in the area, that in my opinion are more convienient than LGA, that can easily handle widebodies, what is actually gained by running widebodies. If you need to run widebodies, send them to JFK or EWR. Domestically though, with all the overcapacity thats hurting airlines, I don't see why you would run them anyways.
 
tinpusher007
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:02 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 4):
Personally, I think this is a great thing. I don't trust widebodies at all on the 7000 ft runways in LGA. In fact, a few years ago, when I had to fly out of LGA on DL, I went out of my way to made sure I was on either a 737 or an MD88, just because of that. The biggest plane that should be in LGA is the 757, and that plane had excellent performance characteristics in an airport like LGA. Otherwise, Widebodies have no business at LGA, send them all to JFK and EWR where they belong.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it is a very ignorant one that is not based in fact. A 764 with enough range to fly from NY to Europe that is only going to ATL will be relatively light...no where near MGTOW. And with two engines rated at 60,000+ lbs of thrust, this aircraft will have no problem operating off of a 7000' runway...with runway to spare. Everytime I have flown into LGA on the 764 we have never even made it to the end of the runway on landing. Same with the 200 and 300 when I've flown them into LGA. The sheer size of the aircraft is not a direct indication of its performance. I bet a C-5 woould get in and out of LGA with no problem if it was empty.
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WindowSeat
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:50 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 26):
And when there are two other airports in the area, that in my opinion are more convienient than LGA, that can easily handle widebodies, what is actually gained by running widebodies. If you need to run widebodies, send them to JFK or EWR. Domestically though, with all the overcapacity thats hurting airlines, I don't see why you would run them anyways.

As everyone has amply proved to you that widebodies can safely operate in and out of LGA, I won't harp on it any more. What the airlines gain out of running widebodies out of LGA, is money. Plain and simple. They fly where people want them to fly, and they fly what aircraft the demand requires. Routes such as ATL-LGA are high capacity routes and need the widebodies. Have you seen how choc-a-block full the 764 goes out of ATL for LGA.

Also, having lived in that area, your argument for JFK is baseless. JFK is further from Manhattan, a pain to get to and much more of a hassle than LGA. LGA is a short cab ride away.

But back to the topic, I think it is a domino effect of the new international routes. I have seen 763ERs being operated domestic, so as these go to the international routes, the 763S domestic will take over those routes as well as some 764 routes. In turn they are using the other acft types such as the 757 and the MD88 to fill in that gap. Personally, I will miss the 764 into LGA, it was always a fun ride.

cheers
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N62NA
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:55 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 26):
If you need to run widebodies, send them to JFK or EWR.

Given the choice, the USA legacy carriers have an aversion to running widebodies to EWR (with the obvious exception of CO).

History has shown that EWR has had the least amount of widebody service from UA, AA, TW, DL, EA, NA when compared to LGA and JFK.

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 24):
I see no problem with widebody service at LGA. As a matter of fact, at a capacity controlled airport, widebodies are the solution...not the problem.

I agree.
 
milesrich
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RE: End Of DL Widebody Service At LGA?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:21 pm

One of the design criteria of the L-1011 and DC-10 is that they be able to operate in and out of LGA with a full load of passengers and enough fuel to fly as far as MIA. My first flight on a DC-10 was 34 years ago this week, from ORD on AA. That was when flying was fun. Two lounges, one F, one Y. 8 across seating in coach, and 38 inches of pitch. The RT fare to ORD was about $100.00 unrestricted.

Comparing LGA to MDW is ridiculous. The approaches to 3 of the runways are unobstructed, (only 4 has the approach over land and the Grand Central Parkway). The last airplane to over run 22 onto the road was a United DC-4 when the runway was about 2,000 feet shorter. At MDW, the usable length is not as long, (look at the recent WN 737 overrun), as there are obstructions at both ends.

Widebodies have operated at LGA since late 1971 without incident. Widebodies, with high bypass engines, as other posters have pointed out, take less runway to lift off, than the DC-9 (MD-80).

The restrictions at DCA are infamous. Jets were not allowed there until late 1966, when 727's, DC-9's and BAC-111's were finally permitted. The restrictions at DCA were primarily required to force the use of IAD, when UA did not have a hub there, and it was considered a White Elephant on a scale equal to Montreal's Mirabel (YMX).