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RobK
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Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:05 am

As many of you know, one of my favourite hobby's is tracking delivery and ferry flights, especially the Boeing deliveries.

Typically, the Chinese 737 deliveries route Boeing Field - Honolulu - Majuro - Saipan - Guangzhou (in the case of a China Southern). This routing is 7791nm.

However, the Xiamen's and Shenzhen's tend to favour Boeing Field - Anchorage - Sapporo (CXA) / Tokyo NRT (CSZ) - Cheju - Xiamen / Shenzhen. This routing is vastly shorter at 5472nm and 5874nm respectively.

What are the advantages of going across the Pacific (ie. via HNL) over going round the top edge via Alaska and Japan? An extra 2000nm seems a huge waste of fuel and time to me.

Check out the routing lines on the Great Circle Mapper http://gc.kls2.com/

BFI-HNL-MAJ-SPN-CAN
BFI-ANC-NRT-CJU-SZX
BFI-ANC-CTS-CJU-XMN

Comments?

RK  Smile
 
je89_w
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:31 am

Something I've always wondered . . .

Yesterday, Sky Mark's B738 (from Japan) came by HNL from BFI. For sure, the aircraft might have to make several more stops to reach Japan. Wouldn't it make more sense to route BFI-ANC-NRT?

Same goes for the ANA/ANK B737-700 which came by HNL too.


Makes it more interesting at HNL though, I guess I shouldn't complain!
 
whitehatter
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:34 am

remember that these aircraft will not have the ETOPS rating or range of something like a 763 or 777. They must therefore fly with the ETOPS limitations in mind and also fuel on board.

ETOPS does not just mean overwater flights. It is the distance from a diversion airport, and can just as easily be over land.
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Carpethead
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:50 pm

During the winter season, the headwinds are much stronger on the North Pacific, thus even the 737NGs may not be up to the range even on a full fuel load.
Another factor maybe higher cost of transiting Japanese airports offsets the extra fuel burned by going south and avoiding Japan altogether.
 
Moneypenny
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:36 pm

Quoting RobK (Thread starter):

What are the advantages of going across the Pacific (ie. via HNL) over going round the top edge via Alaska and Japan?

Well, you get to stop in Hawaii, vs. Alaska. I'd rather do that in December, too...  Big grin
 
crownvic
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 2:40 pm

The Skymark737's may have gone through LAS on their deliveries as this is common for this airline. However, this does not answer your question for the Chinese airlines.

From what I have been told, it is crew preference to route through HNL for "personal reasons". In other words, it is more enjoyable! The average Chinese crew (and most anyone, for that matter), given the choice, would also choose HNL over ANC for their routing. As for the time of year, I too have noticed that the HNL routing also occurs during the summer, so I do not think winter winds are the reason.

Finally, I am not a specialist on non revenue ETOPS operations for delivery flights, but are these flights operated under the same rules as pax flights? Something makes me think that they are not and that the ETOPS rules do not apply. Case in point is the fact that HA's 717's are not ETOPS equipped. Add some bladder tanks to the cabin, then these aircraft do get delivered nonstop across the vast Pacific. My guess is ETOPS rules do not apply to delivery or other ferry flights that do not include revenue pax's, but I maybe wrong.
 
COSPN
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:45 pm

Crew and several Ground staff ect usally 30 sometime fly back with the plane so they like resting up in SPN and HNL SPN has a nice Hotel called Pacific Islands Club with water park: Dinner show ect and Chinese speaking staff..I belive it is all on Boeings Tab so why not  Smile also good weather in the Pacific is probally also a factor...Air India Express 737-800 was also delivered via SPN that was a welcomed suprize
 
je89_w
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:25 pm

Quoting Crownvic (Reply 5):
The Skymark737's may have gone through LAS on their deliveries as this is common for this airline.

I thought JA737H was their first B737. And delivered through LAS? I don't think so. Their routing might've been:

BFI-HNL-MAJ-SPN-NRT (8,237 miles)

and if they went via ANC:

BFI-ANC-NRT (4,878 miles)

So B737NGs can fly from ANC-NRT non stop? Pretty darn far!

Quoting COSPN (Reply 6):
Air India Express 737-800 was also delivered via SPN that was a welcomed suprize

Yes, and HNL as well. But only their first B738.  Sad Their two other B738s went the other way: BFI-YQX-LHR-IST-BOM (not sure of Indian city, might be TRV or BOM).

BFI-HNL-MAJ-SPN-SIN-BOM (12,216 miles)
BFI-YQX-LHR-IST-BOM (9,935 miles)

I guess it does make sense to go over the Atlantic. Missed the first IX B738 at HNL, and looks like I pretty much blew all my chances. Oh well.
 
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fxramper
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:54 pm

This is sort of off topic...(sorry admins)


but my grandfather (former WW2 figher pilot in the Pacific theater) was in town for Christmas, and I was talking to him...after he got his papers to get sent home, they had a program in the Air Force, where you could fly home a Mitchell B25, from south pacific to the States...puddle jumping from like New Guinea to Fiji to Guam to Hawaii, to Cali, etc...he was all set to ferry home the the B25 and the program was cancelled due to the fact that they were losing about 1 in 3 bombers on the run...bummers.

Just some History!  Smile

Sorry, Merry Christmas ALL!!!  Smile
 
cloudyapple
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:59 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 2):
ETOPS

Has no relevance. No passengers on board.
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Bluewave 707
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:29 pm

Some of the delivery flight crews have actually delayed the next leg out of HNL ... for "personal reasons", I assume. Come on now ... sun, beaches, babes, almost 365 days out of the year? I'd bet the flight crews would be battling hand over fist to do the delivery run. Either that, or they (if a permanent bunch) are the envy of the other flight crews. This one's a no-brainer ... HNL baby!

The fact that the ferry flights pass through is not something to complain about. I'm rather grateful that they do. Otherwise, it wouldn't be worth going down to HNL to take photos if it were the same old, same old. AND, HNL RareBirds would not exist if ferry/delivery flights went elsewhere.

Considering what has passed through HNL over the years, there has been a lot of history, and the legacy of HNL as a transit point has lived on. Clipperhawaii will attest to this one.
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
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RobK
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:26 pm

Quoting Crownvic (Reply 5):
The Skymark737's may have gone through LAS on their deliveries as this is common for this airline. However, this does not answer your question for the Chinese airlines.



Quoting Je89_w (Reply 7):
I thought JA737H was their first B737. And delivered through LAS? I don't think so.

The first Skymark 737's did indeed ferry through Las Vegas before continuing to Honolulu, I can confirm.

Crownvic, you say that this is common for this airline. Can you elaborate? This was the first 737 for Skymark as Je89w says. I'm interested to know why they stop at Las Vegas. Interestingly, a good number of the Aeromexico 737's were delivered through Las Vegas too.

RK  Smile
 
whitehatter
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 9):
Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 2):
ETOPS

Has no relevance. No passengers on board.

Flights are still planned with ETOPS in mind. Insurers would not be happy if an aircraft was flown outside of its certified limits whether there are passengers, fuel tanks or nothing whatsoever except the crew.

So it's very relevant.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
bobnwa
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:43 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 12):
Flights are still planned with ETOPS in mind. Insurers would not be happy if an aircraft was flown outside of its certified limits whether there are passengers, fuel tanks or nothing whatsoever except the crew.

So it's very relevant.

I don't understand, Are you saying that non-etops rated twin engine aircraft carrying no passengers cannot be flown for long distances over water ie: BFI-HNL? Please clear this up.
 
greasespot
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:08 am

I do not believe that ETOPS is required for ferry flights as they are operating under a different set of rules...So I doubt if it is that...

GS
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c680
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 12):
Flights are still planned with ETOPS in mind. Insurers would not be happy if an aircraft was flown outside of its certified limits whether there are passengers, fuel tanks or nothing whatsoever except the crew.

Sorry, but this is incorrect. Insurance policies are written with delivery flights and ferry tanks in mind, otherwise it would be impractical to get small inter-island aircraft delivered to many parts of the Pacific. ETOPS has nothing to do with this.
My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
 
HPnonrev99
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting Crownvic (Reply 5):
Finally, I am not a specialist on non revenue ETOPS operations for delivery flights, but are these flights operated under the same rules as pax flights? Something makes me think that they are not and that the ETOPS rules do not apply. Case in point is the fact that HA's 717's are not ETOPS equipped. Add some bladder tanks to the cabin, then these aircraft do get delivered nonstop across the vast Pacific. My guess is ETOPS rules do not apply to delivery or other ferry flights that do not include revenue pax's, but I maybe wrong.

IME during delivery flights the aircraft operates under Part 91, therefore, ETOPS rules do not apply. Our typical routes are:
A320 TLS-PIK-BGR-PHX
A319 HAM-BGR-PHX
Coming soon to an airport near you.
 
CPH757
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:04 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 2):
remember that these aircraft will not have the ETOPS rating or range of something like a 763 or 777. They must therefore fly with the ETOPS limitations in mind and also fuel on board.

ETOPS does not just mean overwater flights. It is the distance from a diversion airport, and can just as easily be over land.

But that does not explain why China Southern takes there 737's to Guangzhou via HNL, when Shenzhen Airlines takes their 737's to Shenzhen via ANC (according to the thread starter).

To me it sounds odd to route through HNL just because of the crews personal reasons. 2000nm is not a short diversion. Send them on a one week vacation to Hainan instead.

I think the high landing fees in the Japanese airports is a more likely reason.
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kaitak744
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:11 am

How far is the range of an empty 737? It should be able to make SEA-NRT.
 
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RobK
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:22 am

2 of the Shenzhen B739's routed via Alaska and the other 2 routed via Honolulu! Work that one out!

RK
 
je89_w
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:38 am

Quoting RobK (Reply 11):
The first Skymark 737's did indeed ferry through Las Vegas before continuing to Honolulu, I can confirm.

Thanks for the info. Interesting!

Quoting RobK (Reply 19):
2 of the Shenzhen B739's routed via Alaska and the other 2 routed via Honolulu! Work that one out!

Actually, three Shenzhen Airlines B739s came by HNL: B-5103, B-5105, and B-5106.  Wink

Xiamen Airlines also took their B73Gs/B752s through HNL before they chose ANC for their last few B737 deliveries. On the side note, would have loved to see their new livery at HNL, but those planes went through ANC.


It sounds like delivery flights route through HNL because of the high landing fees in Japanese airports. But why do Japanese carriers route through HNL if the route is way shorter through ANC, and if they are going to eventually arrive at a Japanese airport?
 
Bluewave 707
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:39 am

Quoting Je89_w (Reply 20):
It sounds like delivery flights route through HNL because of the high landing fees in Japanese airports. But why do Japanese carriers route through HNL if the route is way shorter through ANC, and if they are going to eventually arrive at a Japanese airport?

Probably the same reason the Chinese airlines do it ... ANC? HNL? Even if the lay-over is for the afternoon til the next morning, most people would choose HNL. Even other airlines around the Pacific Rim use HNL as a stopover point during ferry flights, like NZ, QF, and the new start-ups in Indonesia.

Je89_w, if flights went through ANC, then you would not have taken some of the great shots you've captured @ HNL. Neither would I nor any of the other spotters @ HNL. Right?
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
Carpethead
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:17 pm

Perhaps insurance reasons, as if an aircraft on ferry over the north Pacific would have to land in Russia. Some Russian airfields are notorious for bad runway conditions.
I remember reading an article on the ferry flight of a F-Air (now Ibex) CRJ that routed thru one of Russian airports. The journalist on board covering the ferry flight said it was the roughest taxi and landing/take-off he had ever experienced.
 
gigneil
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:35 pm

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 2):
remember that these aircraft will not have the ETOPS rating or range of something like a 763 or 777. They must therefore fly with the ETOPS limitations in mind and also fuel on board.

HNL is the ETOPS 180 flight. Flying up to ANC and across is better for ETOPS... the question is, of course, if any of these planes have the range.

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 12):
Flights are still planned with ETOPS in mind. Insurers would not be happy if an aircraft was flown outside of its certified limits whether there are passengers, fuel tanks or nothing whatsoever except the crew.

Negative, as was pointed out above.

N
 
pilottim747
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting CPH757 (Reply 17):
I think the high landing fees in the Japanese airports is a more likely reason.

I'm wondering if landing fees and airspace use fees have something to do with this as well. Going north you'd have to pay Canada, Japan, and maybe Russia for using their ATC/airspace. Plus there'd be landing fees on top of that. Flying through HNL and SPN you'd be flying in mostly US ATC jurisdiction, right?

pilottim747
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clipperhawaii
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:31 pm

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 10):
Considering what has passed through HNL over the years, there has been a lot of history, and the legacy of HNL as a transit point has lived on. Clipperhawaii will attest to this one.

That's a roger Bluewave707 ! It seems that Varig 777 did land on the 25th. Thanks for that HNL rarebird!
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crownvic
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:21 pm

Je89_w....That is why you have to be careful with a derogatory statement, "I think not", without knowing the facts. Bottom line is, the aircraft sat on the Signature ramp in LAS for 5 days last week.

RobK...Over the last couple of years, their 767-300's past through LAS on deliveries. As you may know, this has been common practice with many airlines over the years. During the McDonnell Douglas era, many of their customers delivered their a/c through LAS including all of DLH's MD-11's. With the operation in LGB down to a trickle, we do not get nearly as many as the old days. From what I have been told, it has to do with Nevada tax laws that enable the airlines to save money on their acceptance of new aircraft, but don't quote me on that.
 
je89_w
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:25 pm

. . . Indeed. Did not know that many airlines flew their aircraft to LAS before being getting them delivered. Very interesting.

Yes, Bluewave707, I guess can't complain about those ferry flights stopping by . . . it is what makes HNL very interesting! And hope we get even more in the future . . .  Smile
 
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RobK
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:35 pm

Quoting Je89_w (Reply 20):
Actually, three Shenzhen Airlines B739s came by HNL: B-5103, B-5105, and B-5106.

You're right, I'd forgotten about B-5106 which went alone.

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 21):
Even other airlines around the Pacific Rim use HNL as a stopover point during ferry flights, like NZ, QF, and the new start-ups in Indonesia.

But when you consider the latitude of Indonesia, Australia and New Zealand then this routing is to be expected so it's not really a valid argument in my opinion.

Delivery flights to NZ and AU go to Nadi instead of Saipan.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 22):
Perhaps insurance reasons, as if an aircraft on ferry over the north Pacific would have to land in Russia.

Why would they have to land in Russia?

Quoting Crownvic (Reply 26):
Over the last couple of years, their 767-300's past through LAS on deliveries. As you may know, this has been common practice with many airlines over the years. During the McDonnell Douglas era, many of their customers delivered their a/c through LAS including all of DLH's MD-11's. With the operation in LGB down to a trickle, we do not get nearly as many as the old days. From what I have been told, it has to do with Nevada tax laws that enable the airlines to save money on their acceptance of new aircraft, but don't quote me on that.

Interesting! I didn't actually know that! I agree that it is probably for tax reasons that they route through there; a bit like the COPA's and Hainan Group's 737's delivering through Abbotsford in Canada I guess.

RK  Smile
 
Bluewave 707
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RE: Pacific Ferry Flights: Why Such A Long Routing?

Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:54 am

Quoting ClipperHawaii (Reply 25):
Thanks for that HNL rarebird!

Thanks for the AS CV990 sighting as well. Definitley a RareBird!
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn