malaysia
Posts: 2615
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:26 am

Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:04 pm

Aside from the cash crunch, the Southwest invasion of DEN, and possibly high fuel prices, and the Independence Air bid rumors,

I was wondering what the real outlook looks for F9 in 2006?

would they go into more debt, but what is the real performance and is F9 a successful business model in some sense?
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
ATLFlyer323
Posts: 487
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:01 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:11 pm

Quoting Malaysia (Thread starter):
would they go into more debt

Are they currently in debt? I thought that they made a slight profit this year and have a nice sum in the bank? Have I been misled?

Thanks,
~Brandon
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18199
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:13 pm

Quoting Malaysia (Thread starter):
Aside from the cash crunch

What cash crunch? They have over $200 million in the bank.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
ATLFlyer323
Posts: 487
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:01 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:15 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 2):
What cash crunch? They have over $200 million in the bank.

Ya I didnt think they were in any financial trouble.

~Brandon
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:21 pm

Bigger airplanes I see, A321 it will be, learn from past mistakes they will (LAX), expand beyond DEN they must or else darkness I fear...
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18199
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:24 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 4):
Bigger airplanes I see, A321 it will be, learn from past mistakes they will (LAX)

That's funny. Yoda Dlkapa? Or is it Obi Wan Durango?  Smile

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
malaysia
Posts: 2615
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:26 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:28 pm

My friend at work made suggestion that the $5 and the $8 for the DirectTV should be included in fare, he was like "would anyone notice"??
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
malaysia
Posts: 2615
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:26 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 4):
Bigger airplanes I see, A321 it will be, learn from past mistakes they will (LAX), expand beyond DEN they must or else darkness I fear...

Bring balance to Frontier, who will?  crossfingers 
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18199
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:37 pm

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 6):
My friend at work made suggestion that the $5 and the $8 for the DirectTV should be included in fare, he was like "would anyone notice"??

If they wouldn't notice, what would be the point of doing it?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1696
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:39 pm

At least this thread is a question, no matter how broad it may be.

Instead, it could be titled something as tactful as:

Frontier: Bleak Outlook

Just having a little fun.......

Merry Xmas everyone
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:44 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
That's funny. Yoda Dlkapa? Or is it Obi Wan Durango?

The force luke mariner, use the force!
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18199
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 10):
luke mariner

Luke Mariner? I am truly flattered.

But does that make Lord Tilton my father - or Darth Brace?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:50 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
But does that make Lord Tilton my father - or Darth Brace?

Darth Bankruptcy Protection Judge?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18199
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:54 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 12):
Darth Bankruptcy Protection Judge?

You're on fire today.  Smile

Actually, I was thinking about LAX - and you know, it wouldn't surprise me to see another little foray there.

They have applied for LAX/SJD - they may not get it, but if they do it is the sort of route that might - stress "might" - make LAX work for them.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:59 pm

How many mexican cities do they serve from LAX? I'd think if they really want to make LAX work for them again they're gonna need to have alot of Mexico before they start thinking about Intra- US flying from there.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Indy
Posts: 3942
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:02 pm

A news story I had seen stated F9 would look at a market smaller than that of LAX. My guess would be one of the cities where they have applied for CUN service. BNA possibly? Smack in the middle of the eastern half of the country much like Denver is in the western half. Decent market that isn't heavily overserved. F9 could set up a focus city there.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18199
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:56 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 14):
How many mexican cities do they serve from LAX?

None from LAX - SJD would be the first. But United has applied for LAX/SJD and someone else - Delta?

Quoting Indy (Reply 15):
BNA possibly? Smack in the middle of the eastern half of the country much like Denver is in the western half.

There's been a strong rumor on the Yahoo stock board about BNA.

It will be interesting. They have half a dozen planes coming this year, starting in March, and gates at DIA Terminal A are at a premium.

There's a whole stack of other rumors, but I don't expect anything much of an announcement from Frontier until the new head of operations starts work in January.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 2:03 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
There's a whole stack of other rumors, but I don't expect anything much of an announcement from Frontier until the new head of operations starts work in January.

"So uhh guys you know all those shiny new A319's we just got? Yeah, they're on their way out, we found it'd be cheaper to get some used DC-9's. We're just waiting for another operator to get rid of them but I gotta be honest, it'll be awile.

In the meantime, keep flying the 'busses, but they'll be just a stopgap..."

BNA is actually in prime position, little less than DIA from the west coast is to the east coast. Lotta WN though.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18199
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 2:10 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 17):
we found it'd be cheaper to get some used DC-9's.

He's not coming from Northwest - he's coming from JetBlue....  Smile

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 2:12 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
He's not coming from Northwest - he's coming from JetBlue....

So... Who wants some Embraer?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
flashmeister
Posts: 2671
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 4:32 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:24 pm

So... Who wants some Embraer?

Doubt it. The 190 hasn't been the easy deal that B6 had hoped for... people are calling it the 180, since that's what it does when it leaves the gate -- comes right back.

That said, the more that F9 becomes like B6 (with their new head of ops)... one has to wonder if/when F9 and B6 get more cozy.
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:30 pm

Quoting Flashmeister (Reply 20):
Doubt it. The 190 hasn't been the easy deal that B6 had hoped for...

Actually I was just being facetious  Wink
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
nosedive
Posts: 2176
Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 2:18 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:01 pm

From faremeasure.com
Top destinations from BNA-PAX per city pair(per day), airlines serving route nonstop:
Chicago, IL- 1,240- AA, UA, WN
Baltimore, MD- 785- WN
New York, NY- 711 AA, CO (didn't distinguish b/w NYC and EWR...)
Detroit, MI- 685 NW, WN
Philadelphia, PA- 465- US
Orlando/Kissimmee, FL- 547- WN
Los Angeles, CA- 544-AA, WN
Houston, TX- 513- CO, WN
Tampa/St. Petersburg/Lakeland, FL- 497-WN
Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX- 444- AA
Raleigh/Durham, NC- 440-WN
Cleveland, OH- 432-WN
Las Vegas, NV- 425- WN
New Orleans, LA- 400- WN
Kansas City, MO- 396- WN
Ft. Lauderdale, FL- 380- WN
Seattle, WA- 347- WN
Denver, CO- 336- F9, UA
Phoenix, AZ- 301- WN

My picks for a small BNA focus city are in bold. And since F9 loves their animal commercials, it wouldn't be too hard to advertise with "Smokey"  Wink
...Uni of Tenn's mascot; yes I know UT is in Knoxville, but who advertises with Vanderbilt?
 
DL787932ER
Posts: 575
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:27 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:34 pm

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 22):
...Uni of Tenn's mascot; yes I know UT is in Knoxville, but who advertises with Vanderbilt?

Sounds like someone missed the UT-Vandy game this year  yes 

I've never looked at faremeasure.com, but I don't see how those numbers could be accurate. For example, the last city on the list is Phoenix, with just 301 average daily passengers, but ATL isn't on the list. DL operates 5X daily MD-88s, configured for 146 seats, on BNA-ATL, not counting 2x CR7s by EV. With 730 mainline seats/day, those flights would have to have less than 41% load factor to move <300 people/day, but every time I flew that route the planes were full (and they were using 752s). I'd guess there are other legacy hubs (maybe MSP or IAD?) that must get more than 300 pax/day from BNA.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
User avatar
antoniemey
Posts: 1225
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:44 pm

Hi all,

I've been lurking for awhile, just registered, this will be my first post.

Much as I would love to see a Frontier Focus City in BNA (Where I currently reside) the problem is space at the airport.

There is counter space available, but to expand by more than 1 gate (And they only have 1 right now) Frontier would have to move to the C concourse, opposite end of the airport from the available counter space. There are also no empty baggage claim offices, and Frontier and Independence both currently run baggage claim at their ticket counters.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
nosedive
Posts: 2176
Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 2:18 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:33 pm

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 23):
but I don't see how those numbers could be accurate.

It's looking at O/D, orgin-destination, traffic numbers. Just because DL has 5 MD-88s on the BNA-ATL route does not mean all those passengers are only flying to ATL. A good chunk are probably connecting in ATL to their final destination. Faremeasure looks at O/D numbers, not seats on a plane. That aids in explaining why there are only 20-30 PAX on say BNA-SBN, but no non-stop flight serves that city pair. The PAX had to connect somewhere.

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 23):
Sounds like someone missed the UT-Vandy game this year   

Touche. But as a former resident of MEM, I noticed that far more people identified w/ UT than Tiger High, Vandy, etc. Maybe people in BNA feel closer to Vandy, but I doubt it. I say, screw em both and go CU!
 
SunValley
Posts: 674
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:51 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:45 pm

Faremeasure is an inaccurate source for actual revenue boardings and is not used in analysis of actual city traffic. Sources available from the DOT are what we in the industry use for passenger & cargo revenue analysis and yield comparison to populate our data bases with. Arizona State Univeristy Business Department has probably the most comprehensive airline traffic information available domestically, in their Traffic & Transportation Department, that can easily be read, as DOT info needs extreme analysis to glean the info from.
 
graham697
Posts: 344
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:59 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:15 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 17):
BNA is actually in prime position, little less than DIA from the west coast is to the east coast. Lotta WN though.

Why be scared of them? If they come into your home then you are obviously allowed to enter and trash theirs  Wink
Looking forward to the new AA
 
georgiabill
Posts: 744
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:53 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:00 am

Still think Frontier should add service from DEN to MHT and PVD. Take advantage of lower fees at MHT and PVD while taking advantage of the people who don't want the hassles of getting to or from BOS.
 
mcdu
Posts: 901
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:52 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 23):
Sounds like someone missed the UT-Vandy game this year yes

Vandy has to win at least one in 100 games right?

Are they still giving Vandy tickets to those that are caught speeding in BNA?
 
User avatar
antoniemey
Posts: 1225
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:21 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 29):
Are they still giving Vandy tickets to those that are caught speeding in BNA?

Maybe to the WN and UA Ex pilots that never slow down when they get groundside. (Never seen an RJ move as fast as the UA Express ones in BNA.)

Of course, at around 6 PM, they also stack 5 aircraft into two gates, so they could just be jockeying for position to get to the food court first...
 duck 
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:40 am

For Frontier to thrive in my opinion it must shift away from a Denver centric operation. Not only are there physical limits on how much its future Denver ops can grow due limited terminal-A gate availability, however having all your eggs in one basket is not a very prudent approach.

Frontier with the exception of Mexico flying to date has misexecuted its previous attempt in operating hub bypass point-to-point flying, namely the Los Angeles focus city from which it quickly retreated.

Going forward Frontier in my opinion should either primarily focus on creating a second hub in a midsize underserved city, or secondarily start connecting its current network of spokes together via extensive point to point flying however carefully avoiding flights that would fall in the midst of very competitive, multiple airline markets such as a LA-NY route, or into other carriers hubs.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18199
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:52 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 31):
or secondarily start connecting its current network of spokes together via extensive point to point flying

LAX/SJD would be that, if they get it. IND/CUN, which starts in March, would also be that.

LAX/PHL and LAX/STL would have stayed but for the rocketing price of fuel - okay in itself perhaps, but not when you have the massive costs of the fleet transition at the same time..

Mostly, it will be interesting to see what Mr. Collins brings to the table when he arrives.

The future direction of the airline will be - to some extent - in his hands, as his is the operational half of Sean Menke's position.

It may well be that he becomes the heir apparent for CEO.

I don't expect announcements of anything until he is settled in.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
GentFromAlaska
Posts: 2666
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:21 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:07 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 15):
BNA possibly? Smack in the middle of the eastern half of the country much like Denver is in the western half. Decent market that isn't heavily over served. F9 could set up a focus city there

I saw two part time CS positions advertised for BNA recently on the F9 website. Maybe something, maybe nothing.  yes   ziplip 
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
alphascan
Posts: 795
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:04 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:17 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 31):
Frontier with the exception of Mexico flying to date has misexecuted its previous attempt in operating hub bypass point-to-point flying, namely the Los Angeles focus city from which it quickly retreated.

Misexecuted is a strong word to use for F9's foray at a LAX focus city. Blindsided might be more accurate.

The expansion into LAX was planned and announced when oil was at $30/bbl in February 2004.

By time the service was a month old, in May 2004, oil had leaped to the high 30s and continued to climb. The economics that would have allowed time to build traffic disappeared practically overnight and F9 management wisely (and nimbly, I might add) started pulling the plug in favor of instantly higher-yielding service out of DEN.

That being said, the marketing strategy for the focus city was horrendous. But there again, could have had its budget cut after the first thirty days when the environment changed so radically. Only the insiders really know.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
User avatar
antoniemey
Posts: 1225
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:27 am

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 33):
I saw two part time CS positions advertised for BNA recently on the F9 website. Maybe something, maybe nothing.

The BNA station has a fairly high turnover rate from what I've observed. All the people there are either brand new or been with the company since near the beginning. I know of two people who recently left that were there this summer, one is now with Delta, the other now with NW, both in BNA working baggage service.

But two extra CS positions wouldn't make for a focus city push.  Smile
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
seatback
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:00 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:17 pm

Please NO BNA! Why go into Southwest territory? For that matter, AA still has a large FF base there too. I don't think the market is large enough to overcome WN and AA.

What about long hauls out of Austin? The market would attract San Antonio too. Although I know both AA and WN are large in AUS, they're pretty much not in the following potential markets (nonstops anyway):

AUS-NYC
AUS-DEN
AUS-SJC (AA?)
AUS-LAX (AA?)
AUS-FLL
AUS-DCA
AUS-PHL
AUS-BOS
AUS-Mexico (CUN, MEX)
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:19 pm

Talk about not going into WN territory.... AUS is a major WN station.

N
 
airbrasil
Posts: 202
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:12 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:25 pm

I think F9 would be perfect if it creates and agreement with B6, routes, planes and ops would match very well!

Airbrasil
 
seatback
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:00 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:28 pm

I know AUS is a major WN station, but they're currently not offering service to the markets noted.

I'm not saying run from Southwest. BNA, I don't believe has the high yield O&D to make it work. I don't know this factually, but I would assume the AUS market (including Central Texas) has more potential.

I also thought about other cities including IND, DAY, STL and MSP.
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:35 pm

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 35):
The BNA station has a fairly high turnover rate from what I've observed

I would bet my life savings that the high turnover rate is due to the management at BNA. Let's just say that some of the mgmt there left/leaves a lot to be desired.

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 35):
But two extra CS positions wouldn't make for a focus city push.

It certainly doesn't. Lots of cities have various openings throughout the year. Two new positions is nothing to get very excited about.
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:36 pm

I believe the failure of the LAX focus city had more to do with the inability to predict the very strong response of competing airlines in the city pairs Frontier decided to enter, then just simply fuel cost. Remember besides fare competition, F9 also faced increased frequencies by incumbent airlines in the city pairs involved, plus even having NWA enter the LAX-DEN market.

In addition I can honestly say, I saw zero advertising for Frontier and its new cities in any SoCal media. If not for my chosen line of work and general interest in aviation, I would never had a clue Frontier was flying nonstop to places like MSP, STL, MCI, PHL from LAX.

So, yes I do feel the work "misexecuted" is a valid term to F9's failed LAX build up.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18199
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:57 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 41):
the inability to predict the very strong response of competing airlines in the city pairs Frontier decided to enter, then just simply fuel cost.

It is true that NWA went nuclear over LAX/MSP - they beefed up MSP/DEN and added, as you say, DEN/LAX.

However, I could be wrong, but I don't remember any similar retaliation for MCI/LAX - Southwest had already added one additional flight when Frontier announced theirs - and I don't remember anyone beefing up STL/LAX or PHL/LAX.

As to advertising, there are a number of archived posts on the Yahoo! stock board (mostly the AWA board) talking about the amount of advertising people were seeing for Frontier in L. A.

Yes, there is still a debate about the advertising Frontier did in MSP - see alphascan, above - but again, they took a similar approach to what they usually do with a new cities and mostly it works.

If it worked in PHL, BNA, CAK, DAY and SAT etc., why would it not work in MSP?

Or LAX.

All the LAX cities started slow and LAX/MSP never recovered. But the others did. By summer, STL/LAX and MCI/LAX had load factors in the 80's, so someone knew they were flying 'em.

But the yields were not good enough to combat the cost of fuel allied with the cost of the fleet transition.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Jetmek319
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:02 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:43 pm

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 6):
My friend at work made suggestion that the $5 and the $8 for the DirectTV should be included in fare, he was like "would anyone notice"??

Notice people would not. Illlegal it would be. Disguising fees dishonorable it be.

JetYoda319!
Never, ever moon a werewolf !!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:46 pm

Its not illegal to include the price of a service you provide in your fares... arguably, that's the place to do it.

N
 
Jetmek319
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:02 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:48 pm

Tis' illegal not to mention it though, and simply add it in. The customer must have right of refusal.
Never, ever moon a werewolf !!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:57 pm

I'm not actually sure that's true.

Arguably, full service carriers factor in the costs of food into their fares, and I am sure that jetBlue factors the cost of offering DirecTV into their fares as well.

The concept of charging more for offering more is pretty solidly based in law. The passenger is aware that you offer free TV services among other things, and that other carriers may charge for that service. Their "right of refusal" would be to take their business to a carrier with a more a la carte pricing system.

N
 
User avatar
antoniemey
Posts: 1225
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:59 pm

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 40):
I would bet my life savings that the high turnover rate is due to the management at BNA. Let's just say that some of the mgmt there left/leaves a lot to be desired.

Were you by any chance in a training class in DEN around late June this summer? Curious since I was and washed out for being late too many times and I seem to remember someone from MSY being there.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
N200WN
Posts: 694
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:09 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:27 pm

Quoting Seatback (Reply 36):
What about long hauls out of Austin? The market would attract San Antonio too.

You wouldn't see any leakage at all from SAT using AUS. It's too far with too much traffic. SAT is well served to most of the cities you listed.

I would have liked to see Frontier add some P2P out of SAT but recently some of the Legacy carriers have been adding these routes with RJ's. A small focus operation to the following cities would have been cool:

DEN
LAX
SFO
MCO
FLL
PHL
CUN
PVR
 
alphascan
Posts: 795
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:04 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Long-Term Outlook

Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:43 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 42):
If it worked in PHL, BNA, CAK, DAY and SAT etc., why would it not work in MSP?

Ultimately, PHL didn't work. BNA has the tour operator contract to help fill the BNA/CUN seats. CAK and DAY are not point to point and thus have the added advantage of connection cities. CAK promotions also used airport marketing dollars and media ie:CLE billboards. From what I have heard from others, my perception is that CAK had a much higher profile media plan than LAX, MSP,MCI and STL ever saw.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 41):
So, yes I do feel the work "misexecuted" is a valid term to F9's failed LAX build up.

Had the environment not changed so radically, I believe they would have stayed in the markets longer and put more effort into it.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 388crazy, AirlineCritic, AMIKI, ASG32Mi, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], BreninTW, deltacto, dk44, flydia, flyguy89, Goodbye, GrayMatter, ikolkyo, LAX772LR, N14AZ, obla, Scorpio, ScroogeMcDuck, StTim, tigerair737, Yahoo [Bot], YZF101 and 283 guests