FlyHigh77
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United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:15 am

Was United unhappy with the 757? If so, why? Were other airlines not happy with the performance or just upset that the production line was closed after dwindling orders?
 
dutchjet
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:17 am

United, with a huge 757 fleet, is a very happy operator of the type....the 757 is a very versatile, very effecient aircraft, and its operators, including UA, are most pleased with its performance.

This is the second thread this week about unhappy 757 operators, where is this nonsense coming from?
 
FlyHigh77
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:20 am

Actually, I posted something the other day and it was deleted -- this was coming off of a couple comments in another thread that were not expanded upon.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:21 am

Are you kidding me? UA operates 97 757s, one less than they operated before bankruptcy. They are VERY happy with the 757, and I expect it to remain in their fleet until a proper replacement is available.

Frankly, it's almost impossible to NOT be happy with the 757. It's extremely versatile (can operate short or long flights with nearly the same efficiency), is very efficient for it's time and is still very competitive, and performs great from any type of conditions. The only thing some airlines might not like is the size, but it's their own damn fault for ordering it if it wasn't the right sized aircraft.
 
PHXinterrupted
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
United, with a huge 757 fleet, is a very happy operator of the type....the 757 is a very versatile, very effecient aircraft, and its operators, including UA, are most pleased with its performance.

This is the second thread this week about unhappy 757 operators, where is this nonsense coming from?

Exactly. UA operates one of the largest 757 fleets in the world, and has for many years.
Keepin' it real.
 
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yyz717
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:29 am

UA was in serious financial difficulty (indeed, still is) around the time Boeing was looking for more orders to keep the 757 line open. UA was in no position to order more 757's, even if they wanted them. I'm sure that had UA been healthy, they would have ordered the 753 which would have fit well with many of their high-cap routes.

Incidently, given that UA has been shedding small numbers of the 744, 772, 733, 735, 762 while in Chap 11, but has been keeping their entire 752 fleet suggests strongly that they are pleased with the 752.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:30 am

Delta is the largest operator of the type and is very happy with the 757. It's one of the most economical a/c to operate on a seat mile cost basis and is extremely versatile. I highly doubt that United is unhappy with their 757's.
 
JayinKitsap
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:49 am

I heard a rumor that TWA was unhappy with their 707's and eventually got rid of them. They were also unhappy about being an airline and closed their doors.

The above is satire. If United was unhappy with the 757 why would they have continued to order them and keep them in the fleet. Next we will hear that WN is unhappy with the 737, or Frontier is unhappy with their 'Busses. Unless there is a change in material fact, it seems very improbable that any airline that has ordered multiple orders for a given model considers it the best option at the time of the order.

A material fact would be an issue arising that changes the economics substantially with operating that type. A good non-aviation example is the Dodge Caravan's propensity of dropping thier transmission before 100K. Nothing like a $2,000 bill on a car repair to take the glow off of a purchase.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:05 am

Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 7):
Dodge Caravan's propensity of dropping thier transmission before 100K. Nothing like a $2,000 bill on a car repair to take the glow off of a purchase.

Did it to me at 90K...never buying a Dodge product again.

But yes- I can't think of a major operator of the 757 that didn't love the beauty.

DeltaGuy
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Stitch
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:25 am

The only thing UA was unhappy with vis-a-vis the 752 was the (supposedly) $200K a month lease rates they were paying on them. C11 took care of that problem quite nicely and, as noted, they continue to operate almost their entire fleet and choose it to be the backbone of their new p.s. service instead of sending in the 763s or refurbing the 762s.
 
flybynight
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:15 am

Is anyone unhappy with the 757? I know the plane wasn't really that big a success outside of the US, but it sure has been a hit in the US.
Great performance on a 752.
Heia Norge!
 
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Stitch
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:47 am

Quoting Flybynight (Reply 10):
Is anyone unhappy with the 757? I know the plane wasn't really that big a success outside of the US, but it sure has been a hit in the US.

Boeing's order sheet show over 35 foreign operator's took deliveries, so it evidently wasn't a bust outside of the US.  Smile

True, the US airlines ordered them by the boatload, but BA appears to have taken 56.  Smile
 
apodino
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:51 am

All I will have to say on this is that when one plane is the only type of airplane to be operated by every one of the big six legacy carriers, and not being retired anytime soon, it must be a great plane. The 757 is one of the best and still is to this day.
 
MGASJO
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:11 am

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 6):
Delta is the largest operator of the type

How many 757 operated by DL? AA operates 143 B757s (including former TWAs)
C208B
 
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Stitch
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:27 am

DL took delivery of 116 752s between 1984 and 2001.
 
aerobalance
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:30 am

Heck, I'm happy with the 757!
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
Amazonphil
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:36 am

Quoting FlyHigh77 (Reply 2):
Frankly, it's almost impossible to NOT be happy with the 757. It's extremely versatile (can operate short or long flights with nearly the same efficiency), is very efficient for it's time and is still very competitive, and performs great from any type of conditions. The only thing some airlines might not like is the size, but it's their own damn fault for ordering it if it wasn't the right sized aircraft.

a CAL captain told me once while riding jump seat(I work for CAL also) to LIM that this (the 757) is the most efficient aircraft Continental flies...best speed, range and reliabilty with the amount of RPM's if produces.
Not sure what or where this thread came from but this is non-sense.

amazonphil
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ClearedDirect
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:37 am

Well since we are in agreement that the ole 75' is a great aircraft -
Let me mention that my Dodge (Stratus) dropped its transmission at only 72k!
 
legacytravel
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:41 am

Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 7):
dropping thier transmission before 100K

My Chevy Impala dropped 2 Trannys one at 52,000 and the other at 70,000. I am now going to buy Imports. Anyway UA has one of the largest fleets of 757's around. I find it hard to believe that they are unhappy with it.
I just think that Boeing made a mistake to close the line so early.

Mark in MKE
I love the smell of Jet fuel in the Morning
 
Aither
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:47 am

I never understood why Boeing stopped doing the 757 / or airlines not wanting to buy it. I really believe it is a perfect aircraft for many markets though maybe it could have been updated.
Never trust the obvious
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:58 am

Quoting ClearedDirect (Reply 21):
Let me mention that my Dodge (Stratus) dropped its transmission at only 72k!

Haha that reminds me of the SNL skit...

DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?!
I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS!!
PEOPLE RESPECT ME!!
 
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:59 am

Quoting FlyHigh77 (Thread starter):
Was United unhappy with the 757? If so, why? Were other airlines not happy with the performance or just upset that the production line was closed after dwindling orders?

Yes, I heard there was some UA big wigs on a DL JFK-SVO flight lately to take a look at buying some used TU134's to replace them! Big grin

B
 
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Stitch
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:12 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 23):
I never understood why Boeing stopped doing the 757 / or airlines not wanting to buy it. I really believe it is a perfect aircraft for many markets though maybe it could have been updated.

Interest was pretty steady through mid-2001, then dried up. The plane recorded no orders from January 1, 2002 to September 8, 2003 (when Shanhgai Airlines ordered 5 752s) and Xiamen ordered two 752s on November 19, 2003. Those were the last orders recorded.

I am guessing that with traffic patterns falling, as efficient as the 757 is when full, they weren't full all that often. So airlines probably didn't want to add anymore to their existing fleets. The 739ER gets you into the ballpark in capacity (though not range) while the A321 does both, so they are options for operators looking for a 757-type plane.

Quoting 1011 (Reply 27):
When will UA get rid of the 757s? Most are made from 1990-1993.

About the time Boeing introduces Y1 and Airbus introduces the next-gen A321 - mid-2010s, I imagine.

[Edited 2005-12-27 03:14:25]
 
jeckPDX
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:13 am

Quoting 1011 (Reply 27):
When will UA get rid of the 757s? Most are made from 1990-1993.

UA has 757s that are earlier build models than this. I can see these aircraft operating for as long as NW has operated their DC-9s unless something that is radically more efficient in the same size class comes along to replace them. I'd look to see them in the air for at least another 10-15 years.

JeckPDX
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BOS2LAF
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:24 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 23):
never understood why Boeing stopped doing the 757 / or airlines not wanting to buy it. I really believe it is a perfect aircraft for many markets though maybe it could have been updated.

Could you imagine a 757 upgraded with 787 technology?!?!

As Peter Griffin would say, "Freakin' sweet!"
 
gigneil
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:28 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
The 739ER gets you into the ballpark in capacity (though not range) while the A321 does both, so they are options for operators looking for a 757-type plane.

Actually the 737-900 missed the range goal, but the 737-900ER competes favorably with the 321.

N
 
deltadude
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:41 am

I would imagine that the 757 will last longer than it predecessors. With the addition of winglets and engine upgrades they will probably be the "B52" of commercial aircraft. Boeing will be able to wait another 10 years before they have to think about a replacement.
 
Tom12
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:55 am

I agree with most of the comments, the 757 is definetly one of the best Boeing's. I can't see why anyone/airline could have a problem with it. The 757 also has a great dispatch reliability (above 80% i think)

Regards
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gigneil
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:00 pm

Heh, 80% would be a horrible, miserable, pathetic dispatch reliability.

96% is a horrible, miserable, pathetic dispatch reliability.

I think the 757 probably gets 98 or 99%.

N
 
PanAm747
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:44 pm

Quote:
I would imagine that the 757 will last longer than it predecessors. With the addition of winglets and engine upgrades they will probably be the "B52" of commercial aircraft. Boeing will be able to wait another 10 years before they have to think about a replacement.

Considering that America West/USAirways is still flying some ex-Eastern airframes dating from the early 1980's, I would guess that our grandchildren will still be seeing 757's flying.

Let us also remember PHX and LAS in summertime...the cement hot enough to melt tires if they stand long enough in one place...ghastly temperatures sometimes over 120 degrees Fahrenheit...no appreciable or useable breeze.

The 757 looks at days like that and says, "c'mon, give me a REAL challenge!!"  rotfl  While other planes are weight restricted and using every precious inch of runway, the 757 hardly even notices the heat.

I believe also that the 757 was the first plane certified to use an airport in the Chinese Himalayas (was it Shenzen? I can't remember...) at over 13,000 feet.

And while the 757 certainly isn't the fastest passenger plane (by a long-shot!!) its operating economics certainly make it versatile enough to negate that fact.

btw, thank you Boeing, for the  dollarsign  dollarsign  - anytime you need a cheerleader for your planes, don't hesitate to call on me again!!  spin 
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Amazonphil
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:43 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 30):
And while the 757 certainly isn't the fastest passenger plane (by a long-shot!!) its operating economics certainly make it versatile enough to negate that fact.

Your right about not being the fastest, however it isn't too shabby with speed either. At FL410, it will still do approx .85 mach! Of coarse that isn't an economical EPR powers setting but it will accomplish it. But it performs best at .76-82 at FL350-390.

Regards,
amazonphil
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Molykote
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:07 pm

It's too bad the other thread was deleted. I put 20 minutes of my time into a completely shameless rant about how much I love that airplane.
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
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garpd
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:08 pm

This make two threads in two days about Airlines supposedly unhappy with the 757?!
Is this thread based mostly on an Airbus cheerleader's pipe dream perhaps?

Its been in service since the 80s with not so much as a whimper from an airline.
Even now it can still hold its own against more recently introduced aircraft in most respects.
It is without a doubt one of the better Boeings.
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NWDC10
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:16 pm

I guess i was slow to notice but anyone also see that CO added winglets to their 757's? Robert NWDC10
 
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antoniemey
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:55 pm

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 35):
I guess i was slow to notice but anyone also see that CO added winglets to their 757's? Robert NWDC10

They've been working on that for several months. Looks nice, I think.

But then, I tend to like the looks of the 57 in any case.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:22 pm

Quoting 1011 (Reply 22):
When will UA get rid of the 757s? Most are made from 1990-1993.

If they do get rid of them soon

Won't everyone quit with thinking that 12-15 yr old jets need to be considered for replacement? They've got twice that age left in them with a major, and probably more with a second-hand operator. The 757 is as rugged as they come, so expect that beautiful nose to continue cutting sky for a long time.

Unfortunately a few examples are beginning to be scrapped, what a shame. Sad day when they closed the line, hence the 739...DL already added wording for it in the pilot working agreement, so I'd venture to say that'll one day begin to augment the 757 fleet, and eventually replace whenever that sad day comes.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
N1120A
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:22 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
The 739ER gets you into the ballpark in capacity (though not range) while the A321 does both

The 739ER and A321 both hold fewer passengers and both fall rather short of the 757s range. Additionally, their field performance is nowhere in the ballpark.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
UN_B732
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:06 pm

The winglest were added for some of their longer 757 routers, like EWR-TXL, which westbound really is on the edge of the 757s range.
What can I say about the 757? Does anyone remember in Randy's Blog when the 757 took off from some airport with like 8,000 feet elevation on one runway? (I don't remember the exact statistics, but Randy definitely talkeda bout it)
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What now?
 
crazygrrl
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:14 pm

UN_B732,

I was on a CO 757 from EWR-TXL, and the aircraft was almost totally full. While it may be on the edge of it's range, it did it without terribly many restrictions.

Tasha  Smile
fly for pleasure when you can - but fly ------ only when you absolutely must
 
UALMMFlyer
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:10 pm

757 is a wonderful aircraft and have been a workforce for the UA legacy carriers for over 2 decades now. The 757 is also a favorite of the tour operators in Europe and the Chinese airlines. You will find the 757 lives on as a converted freighter once the passenger airlines start to phase them out.

We have seen Boeing developing the 747-8 to replace the 744, 787 to replace the 762/763, and the possible 787-10 to replace the 7772ER. In addition speculation of 737NG replacement as Boeing's next project. However, IMHO, the replacement of the 737NG should take into considerations of some of the operating characteristics and features of the 757. I understand the 739 and 739ER have the capacity and range of the 757, but I still consider them as a short term fix.

As regard to UA, UA absolutely love the 757..... none has been parked in the desert since 9/11 and throughout of the CH. 11.
Treat others like you'd like to be treated!
 
N1120A
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:12 pm

Quoting UALMMFlyer (Reply 41):
I understand the 739 and 739ER have the capacity and range of the 757, but I still consider them as a short term fix.

Actually, they have neither the capacity nor the range of the 757.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
gkirk
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:45 pm

There is simply no other aircraft like the 757.
The -200 especially has a great performance and the -300 is also a nice a/c.

The A321 and B739/739ER cannot and should not be put in the same sentence as the 757.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Amy
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:53 pm

Quoting Flybynight (Reply 10):
Is anyone unhappy with the 757? I know the plane wasn't really that big a success outside of the US

Errrrm European Charter operators can't get enough of them, whilst there are many operating in China as well.

Quoting UALMMFlyer (Reply 41):
I understand the 739 and 739ER have the capacity and range of the 757

With respect, you understand wrong. Even if the 739ER has a higher range than projected it will still not have the range to comfortably cross the atlantic. The 739ER could supplement 757s for an operator like CO on trans-con but it cannot replace the 757.
A340-300 - slow, but awesome!
 
Leskova
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:55 pm

I think Condor probably qualifies as one of the only, if not the only, airline unhappy with some of their B757s.

But that's because they ordered -300s at a time when they thought they'd need them, only to then notice that they had way too much capacity on their hands, and now they're having a miserable time getting rid of the planes.

Other than that, I'd say the B757 is one of the few planes about which I've never heard anything even resembling a somewhat believable rumor of "unhappiness".

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
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garpd
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:01 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 43):
There is simply no other aircraft like the 757.
The -200 especially has a great performance and the -300 is also a nice a/c.

The A321 and B739/739ER cannot and should not be put in the same sentence as the 757.

Agreed.
It seems a lot of people think the A321 is a replacement for the 757. Well it ain't

For example we have BA, sllowly introducing the A321 to replace their 757s. They can do this as they do not use the 757 anywhere close to its designed performance. They use them mainly on shuttle runs where range and payload are not critical.
Therefore, in conjuction with their A320 shorthaul fleet, the A321 makes sense. It carries almost the same ammount of pax and its range limitation is of no issue.
But pit an A321 and B757 against each other at their designed MTOW and you'll find the A321 will fall far behind.
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UALMMFlyer
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:25 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
Actually, they have neither the capacity nor the range of the 757.



Quoting Amy (Reply 44):
With respect, you understand wrong. Even if the 739ER has a higher range than projected it will still not have the range to comfortably cross the atlantic. The 739ER could supplement 757s for an operator like CO on trans-con but it cannot replace the 757.

Thanks for point that out. ^

This is another good reason that Boeing should look into a 757 replacement as well when it considers the new generation replacement for the 737.
Treat others like you'd like to be treated!
 
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garpd
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:30 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 45):
I think Condor probably qualifies as one of the only, if not the only, airline unhappy with some of their B757s.

But that's because they ordered -300s at a time when they thought they'd need them, only to then notice that they had way too much capacity on their hands, and now they're having a miserable time getting rid of the planes.

Other than that, I'd say the B757 is one of the few planes about which I've never heard anything even resembling a somewhat believable rumor of "unhappiness".

Regards,
Frank

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I beleive the root of the problem was that they ordered 300s with PW engines which makes them lame ducks in Europe.
Should have gone RR  Wink They'ed have gotten rid of them double quick. LOL
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Chief727
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:32 pm

As a pilot and enthusiast, I have always wondered why Boeing developed the longer 737 and not a shorter 757. With the advances of the 757/767 series and the common type rating for pilots, the short 757 should easily fit the same market as the long and longer 737s.

I wonder if Boeing did not do this because Airbus "already was doing it" with their A320 "family" ? ( A318, A319, A320, A321 )  confused 
 
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garpd
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:41 pm

Quoting Chief727 (Reply 49):
As a pilot and enthusiast, I have always wondered why Boeing developed the longer 737 and not a shorter 757. With the advances of the 757/767 series and the common type rating for pilots, the short 757 should easily fit the same market as the long and longer 737s.

I wonder if Boeing did not do this because Airbus "already was doing it" with their A320 "family" ? ( A318, A319, A320, A321 )

Typically if you shrink an existing design you end up with an airplane that is too heavy.
The A318 is heavy fort its size, but as part of the A320 family can be operated efficiently.

A shrunk 757 would not have such luxury.
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Lurch
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RE: United Unhappy With The 757?

Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:33 pm

British Airways still has a Fleet of 757s (13) But compared to the 1980s BA had a huge 757 fleet to replace the HS-121 tridents with which the 757 did.

So much SO that BA are still operating these 13 Machines and are having a problem finding an air frame to replace the 757 as the 57 is SO easy to use on Short medium and Long haul routes all over Europe and the near east.

Basically the 757 is a 707 re-engineered for the 1980/90s a new wing new nose new engines new tail and landing gear old Body section.

Those Big RB-211s make the BA 757s go like a Stabbed Rat on take off along with that rearly steep climb out it has.

A friend of mine works for BA at LGW and he said Gib air had to borrow a BA 757 last year to handle all the Pax and extra freight they had going to Gibraltar which the a321s could not handle!

At one point a few years ago the ATC Lsham maintains base had a large number of Condor 757s resident, They are no longer there as they found new operators.

But at kemble the old Royal Brunei 757 is going to be axed next year a shame!