MidnightMike
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Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:59 pm

I thought at one time Aeroflot was leaning towards the A350? Was this on somebody's radar screen?


MOSCOW, Dec 27 (Reuters) - Flagship Russian carrier Aeroflot, which tendered for long-haul aircraft in July, wants to buy 22 Boeing (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) planes worth more than $2.5 billion, business dailies Kommersant and Vedomosti reported on Tuesday.

Kommersant quoted sources at the airline as saying a contract could be signed in March. It said Aeroflot had recently amended the tender and could buy as many as 28 aircraft instead of 22.

Vedomosti quoted Aeroflot sources as saying the company had decided in favour of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuot...05-12-27_06-25-06_l27275701_newsml
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wedgetail737
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:09 pm

That was kind of unexpected considering that Aeroflot has been taking up Airbus airplanes and getting rid of the Boeing airplanes, namely 777's. That would be great news for Boeing, if it really happens.

Is the 787 the only airplane considered for this round of orders?
 
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garpd
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:15 pm

If this pans out, I certainly did not expect this.
As with the thread starter, I thought Airbus had this in the bag.

I thought ther A350 fitted Aeroflot better than the 787.

Politics anyone?
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NASOCEANA
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:24 pm

It seems that Boeing has taken a page from the 787 blueprints and shed its excess weight to become a seriously efficient sales machine. Their sales pace has undoubtedly been truly amazing!

Maybe Newsweek should have chosen "The Boeing Sales Team" as person of the Year, instead of Bill and Melinda Gates!!!!!
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PlaneDane
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:25 pm

Quoting GARPD (Reply 2):
If this pans out, I certainly did not expect this.
As with the thread starter, I thought Airbus had this in the bag.

I thought ther A350 fitted Aeroflot better than the 787.

Politics anyone?

I tend not to think so, GARPD.

My experience with Russians is that they appreciate the latest and greatest in any technology, which I think that the B787 clearly represents in commercial aviation.

Well, maybe it does help that Boeing has such a strong presence in Moscow and elsewhere throughout Russia now, but Aeroflot is independent of the government now.
 
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garpd
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:32 pm

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 4):
My experience with Russians is that they appreciate the latest and greatest in any technology, which I think that the B787 clearly represents in commercial aviation.

And my experience is that they'll invariably cave in to a good offer  Wink
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MOW
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:35 pm

As always with SU, you believe it when you see it (signed). At this stage we've got only rumors - insiders at Russian government say that B is more preferable because "they are offering a bolder and more break-through product". It would be ridiculous to make any conclusions based on such statements only. According to the Russian newspapers mentioned, sources at SU say that nothing is decided yet and the final decision is due in March.
 
AJRfromSYR
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:36 pm

I love how every sale is because of XY and Z but never because a good product was sold at a good price.
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:40 pm

Quoting GARPD (Reply 5):
Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 4):
My experience with Russians is that they appreciate the latest and greatest in any technology, which I think that the B787 clearly represents in commercial aviation.

And my experience is that they'll invariably cave in to a good offer

Well, yes, a good offer probably made the difference. I agree.
 
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garpd
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:56 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 7):
I love how every sale is because of XY and Z but never because a good product was sold at a good price.

That's because in reality, it IS because of XY and Z.  Wink
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:05 pm

Quoting GARPD (Reply 9):
That's because in reality, it IS because of XY and Z.

Might be reality, but the other reality is that 99% of the time you don't know what XY&Z.
-AJR-
 
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garpd
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:13 pm

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 10):
Might be reality, but the other reality is that 99% of the time you don't know what XY&Z.

I beg to differ, 30% of the time I know or have a fair idea  Wink But that's just me.
Anyway back on topic: If this pans out, I'll be surprised, but not overly shocked.
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DeltaWings
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:14 pm

It could also be, that they want a direct 767-300 replacement and the A350 is a bit bigger. I can imagine, that SU will get both 788 and 789.
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:21 pm

Quoting GARPD (Reply 11):
I beg to differ, 30% of the time I know or have a fair idea

that's what I mean, we all may have a fair idea but... A fair idea is not a confirmed rumor, so maybe you are telling me 30% of the time you know 30% of the time?

- Not trying to get technical, just want to make the point that we usually don't know the exact reason, but maybe just a good guess.
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:13 pm

Does anyone remember on another forum where sources from SU Management said that they had already chosen the A350 and were going to announce very soon?
It's very unstable, but I could see them getting the 787 to replace their 763s, but maybe not, as the 763s are still very young (especially comapred to the Tu-154s) Here's statistics on SUs 763 fleet (sorry if I omitted any new deliveries)

Act 25117 767-3T7(ER) VP-BWV Aeroflot 1994-08-11
Act 29618 767-38A(ER) VP-BDI Aeroflot 2003-08-15
Act 30107 767-36N(ER) VP-BAV Aeroflot 1999-08-20
Act 30109 767-36N(ER) VP-BAX Aeroflot 1999-10-01
Act 30110 767-36N(ER) VP-BAY Aeroflot 1999-12-15
Act 30111 767-36N(ER) VP-BAZ Aeroflot 1999-12-16
Act 30342 767-341(ER) VP-BWQ Aeroflot 2004-09-09



If they are going iwth Boeing however, I must say that The Boeing sales team is really amazing -- quite a comeback from about a year ago when I thought Airbus sales had it made (such as jetBlue, Northwest etc. etc.)
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N1120A
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:21 pm

Quoting GARPD (Reply 2):

I thought ther A350 fitted Aeroflot better than the 787.

Actually, given that they have given up on the 777 because of its size, the A350 would likely also be too big. The 788 is perfect.
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garpd
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:36 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
Actually, given that they have given up on the 777 because of its size, the A350 would likely also be too big. The 788 is perfect.

hmm, good point.

I suppose part of me thought that due to Airbus' obvious tactics in Russia, that the A350 was garaunteed an order.
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:41 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):

Actually, given that they have given up on the 777 because of its size, the A350 would likely also be too big. The 788 is perfect.

This is the key point - Aeroflot dropped the 777 because of size, not because there was anything wrong with the aircraft. Aeroflot used its 777s on the JFK route, and there is simply not adequate demand during the low season winter period. No other route in the Aeroflot network really required the 777 - and the lease rates on the 777 were rather high.

It does seem that Boeing has correctly sized the 787 models - many airlines seem to prefer less seats per aircraft - this makes opening new routes less risky and cuts down on excess capacity killing yeilds. When Airbus "supersized" its A350 in order to make sure that the operating numbers were correct and to lock in the EK order (which has not yet happened), it may have made a mistake.......airlines seem to be looking for the next generation 767/A310, not a successor to the 772. Its gets more and more interesting......
 
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garpd
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:53 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 17):
It does seem that Boeing has correctly sized the 787 models - many airlines seem to prefer less seats per aircraft - this makes opening new routes less risky and cuts down on excess capacity killing yeilds. When Airbus "supersized" its A350 in order to make sure that the operating numbers were correct and to lock in the EK order (which has not yet happened), it may have made a mistake.......airlines seem to be looking for the next generation 767/A310, not a successor to the 772. Its gets more and more interesting...

This is precisely my belief also. I think Airbus focused so hard on winning EK with the A350 that they lost sight of the 787s real mission, an A300/767/A330 replacement.

Instead Airbus are focusing on higher seats to balance the economics better. This will be fine for some airlines, as we are seeing, but it is not the ultimate answer.
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Leskova
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:21 pm

Quoting GARPD (Reply 16):
I suppose part of me thought that due to Airbus' obvious tactics in Russia, that the A350 was garaunteed an order.

Which "obvious tactics in Russia" would you be referring to here?

Quoting GARPD (Reply 18):
I think Airbus focused so hard on winning EK with the A350 that they lost sight of the 787s real mission, an A300/767/A330 replacement.

The A350 was not supposed to be a replacement for the A300, because it simply doesn't fit the mission requirements - the airlines were quite clear towards Airbus that they didn't like the A330-100 that Airbus had presented for that mission at one time (quite a number of airlines specifically pointing out the too-large wingspan); if anything, the A350 is even more geared towards longhauls than the A330 is, something the A300 clearly is not.

I do have to admit that ignoring the A300 and non-ER-B767 replacement market seems somewhat strange to me, because very few airlines will want to misuse longhaul planes for shorthaul missions like SQ with the B777s; maybe - let's make that hopefully - Airbus is working hard on the realization of that constant recurring rumor aka A305... because right now it really looks as if Airbus is ignoring the part of the market they started out with... and I seriously doubt that they expect all airlines to be wanting to fulfill all of their shorthaul-missions with the A320-series or B737-series in the future...

But as for Aeroflot - personally, I considered it more than likely from the start that they'd be going to Boeing for their longhaulers. I wouldn't mind being proved wrong with that, but I expect SU to be flying B787s in the future.

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mauriceb
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:37 pm

note that Aeroflot will also lease 2 more 767's, ex-KL to be delivered in mid and end 2006....
 
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:38 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 19):
Which "obvious tactics in Russia" would you be referring to here?

Perhaps it is a reference to EADS recent purchase of 10% of Irkut.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 19):
I wouldn't mind being proved wrong with that

It is early days yet and this report may be correct, maybe not. We just have to wait and see.  Smile

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N1120A
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:43 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 19):
the airlines were quite clear towards Airbus that they didn't like the A330-100 that Airbus had presented for that mission at one time (quite a number of airlines specifically pointing out the too-large wingspan)

Not to mention the fact that the A330 airframe is optimized for longer missions and has proved unable to cope with the pounding of short haul, quick turn ops

Quoting Leskova (Reply 19):
misuse longhaul planes for shorthaul missions like SQ with the B777s

Actually, using the 777 on short hops isn't really a misuse as the airframe was initially developed to perform well on short-medium haul missions.
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Leskova
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:46 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 21):
Quoting Leskova (Reply 19):
Which "obvious tactics in Russia" would you be referring to here?

Perhaps it is a reference to EADS recent purchase of 10% of Irkut.

I guess that's what he was pointing at - but...

How would that get Airbus an advantage in comparison to Boeing's investments in Russia, which started several years back?

If at all, I'd say it might have evened out the scales tipping heavily in favor of Boeing (depending on how influence such things still have at SU)...

Regards,
Frank
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garpd
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:49 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 19):
he A350 was not supposed to be a replacement for the A300, because it simply doesn't fit the mission requirements - the airlines were quite clear towards Airbus that they didn't like the A330-100 that Airbus had presented for that mission at one time (quite a number of airlines specifically pointing out the too-large wingspan); if anything, the A350 is even more geared towards longhauls than the A330 is, something the A300 clearly is not.

I do have to admit that ignoring the A300 and non-ER-B767 replacement market seems somewhat strange to me, because very few airlines will want to misuse longhaul planes for shorthaul missions like SQ with the B777s

This is entirely my point. The need for a direct 767/A300/A310 replacement was obvious. especialy for the widebody short/medium haul sector.
This is one reason why the 787 is the size it is. It can fullfill short, medium and long haul operations, replacing the A300/A310 and 767.
However, the A350 can only ecomonicaly operate long haul. Airbus focused the product too much on EK's needs. Airbus claim the A350 is a 787 competitor when ultimately it is not. Its bigger.

You mention an A330-100. I am not surprised it was not well received as I can see that as beeing too heavy and not economical to replace the A300/A310. Shrinking a plane like the A330, optimised for long haul is not going to work. Boeing tried it with the 777-100 and failed.
So it puzzles me why Airbus are leaving the 767/A310/A300 market solely to the 787.

Is EK really that important?
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:17 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 23):
How would that get Airbus an advantage in comparison to Boeing's investments in Russia, which started several years back?

If at all, I'd say it might have evened out the scales tipping heavily in favor of Boeing

True, it would have evened out the scales as you say. However, let's not forget that Airbus recently stated they wish to increase the amount of outsourcing they place to something in the region of 60%. To do this, EADS must make such purchases which, in my opinion, should be considered as nothing more than that of a Multinational Corporation going about it's business. As to whether this has any influence over the decision making process at SU, or give Airbus an advantage. I'm not too sure, after all SU recently committed to 7 firm and 5 leased A320 series so their efforts to date show they do appear to be gaining some ground in that market, even prior to the investment in Irkut.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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FCKC
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:54 pm

Personnaly i will be very careful , and will wait for the day the order will be signed.
 
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garpd
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:54 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 23):
I guess that's what he was pointing at

It was indeed. My bad for not naming EADS but Airbus.

The way I read it, the purchase came at the same time SU was considering an Airbus or Boeing order. Struck me as a little too coincidental.
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manni
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:03 pm

http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=11717

This article points out a third possibility. According to the Russian newspaper the Kommersant, the order might be split.

"Aeroflot liet enkele maanden geleden weten de vloot te willen vernieuwen met de Airbus A350, of de Boeing 787. Het grote aantal vliegtuigen dat de maatschappij op het oog heeft, laat echter ook ruimte over voor een order aan het adres van beide vliegtuigbouwers, zo melden de bronnen van Kommersant."
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:45 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 28):
"Aeroflot liet enkele maanden geleden weten de vloot te willen vernieuwen met de Airbus A350, of de Boeing 787. Het grote aantal vliegtuigen dat de maatschappij op het oog heeft, laat echter ook ruimte over voor een order aan het adres van beide vliegtuigbouwers, zo melden de bronnen van Kommersant."

 Smile If a Korean quotes a Dutch news source, I think it's only fair for a Mongolian to translate it:
"Some months ago ago Aeroflot stated it wanted to renew its fleet with the Airbus 350, or the Boeing 787. The large number of aircraft that the airline is interested in, also leaves space for an order from both manufacturers, as sources reported at Kommersant"
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:33 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 2):
I thought ther A350 fitted Aeroflot better than the 787.

Politics anyone?

Then perhaps you can tell us why wasn't it politics when their single aisle choice was Airbus? But they chose the B787 (Maybe) over the A350 because of political pressure... From whom?
No. Perhaps in both cases, Aeroflot decided which product better fit their needs, plain and simple.
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:50 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
Actually, using the 777 on short hops isn't really a misuse as the airframe was initially developed to perform well on short-medium haul missions.

Correct. Enter the 777-200 (no ER or LR on these ships).
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atmx2000
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 19):
Which "obvious tactics in Russia" would you be referring to here?

Increasing outsourcing to Russian aerospace companies.

Quoting GARPD (Reply 16):
I suppose part of me thought that due to Airbus' obvious tactics in Russia, that the A350 was garaunteed an order.

But Boeing had already signed various deals.

Quoting GARPD (Reply 24):
This is entirely my point. The need for a direct 767/A300/A310 replacement was obvious. especialy for the widebody short/medium haul sector.

That actually isn't so obvious with the rash of LCC's flying narrowbodies. So far the 783 has won orders from the Japanese majors, who do have a lock on their home market and have yet not had to deal with large scale LCC competition.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 29):
"Some months ago ago Aeroflot stated it wanted to renew its fleet with the Airbus 350, or the Boeing 787. The large number of aircraft that the airline is interested in, also leaves space for an order from both manufacturers, as sources reported at Kommersant"

While this might be a good idea from the industrial perspective because Russian industry will continue winning outsourcing deals, one has to wonder about whether it will make sense for Aeroflot. The 788 and A358 are too close in size. The 789 and A359 is almost as large as the 772ER, though the former is structured to do well as a A332 competitor as well due to its light weight, so it is also too close to the A358. Maybe they could split by going for the 783 and A350. On the other hand by 2010/2011 SU might expect that they need an aircraft about as large as the 772ER again.
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Stitch
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:57 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 24):
So it puzzles me why Airbus are leaving the 767/A310/A300 market solely to the 787.

Perhaps they don't feel the market is big enough to develop a specialized A350-700?

I have no clue how many A300s and A310s are out there, and of those that are, are with operators who fly Airbus-only fleets. LH has 14 A306s and if they could make a case for more widebodies on short-and-medium haul runs, they might be able to place a "kick-start" order.

One can expect that UA, CO, DL and AA will choose the 787-3 to replace their short-to-medium range 762ER/763ER/764ER fleets, which measures in the scores, so that alone would have justified the 787-3 program.

[Edited 2005-12-27 17:59:56]
 
FCKC
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:52 am

In another article read that SU has chosen THE (not two) manufacturer (probably Boeing) and will sign their order in March next year.
 
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:02 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 26):
Personnaly i will be very careful , and will wait for the day the order will be signed.

Exactly!
 
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:36 am

To me personally, Aeroflot getting the A350 never made sense. They got rid of the 777's because they were too much capacity. The 787 makes more sense.
 
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 33):
Perhaps they don't feel the market is big enough to develop a specialized A350-700?

Given that the vast majority of sales to date for the 787 have been for the 788, and the large installed base of 767ERs, clearly there is a strong market for medium and long haul sub 200+ pax airliners.

I would suggest the reasons for Airbus not introducing a product for this market are related to technology limitations, product launch dynamics and product line positioning and protection. The technology limitation is that they can't produce a small frame as light as the 788 that would offer similar trip costs for the 220pax market while offering 8000nm+ range, so they instead targeted per seat costs to make the plane competitive on at least one key cost indicator. The product launch dynamics required them to design around the requirements of the airlines that might make a large launch order, namely QR and EK, both of which were looking for larger aircraft sooner than what Boeing was offering. The product line positioning and protection relates to not encouraging fragmentation and hub busting that would damage the A380's prospects for carrying significant numbers of non O&D customers on trunk routes and hence damage the business case for the aircraft.
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:26 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 37):
The product line positioning and protection relates to not encouraging fragmentation and hub busting that would damage the A380's prospects for carrying significant numbers of non O&D customers on trunk routes and hence damage the business case for the aircraft.

Rather short sighted, wouldn't you say? If Airbus will not provide the products airlines want, then Boeing will be only to happy to have the entire market to themselves.

I think Airbus has always desired to offer a complete family of aircraft. The reason they can't now devote attention to the A300 replacement is that they are preoccupied finishing the A380, which will only serve a niche market. It's looking more and more like a bad business decision every day.
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atmx2000
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:34 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 38):
Rather short sighted, wouldn't you say? If Airbus will not provide the products airlines want, then Boeing will be only to happy to have the entire market to themselves.

Remember, that this is only informed speculation. But I would also say that the first two reasons are far more important reasons for not offering a direct competitor to the 788 than the last one.
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:38 am

Quoting NASOCEANA (Reply 3):
Maybe Newsweek should have chosen "The Boeing Sales Team" as person of the Year, instead of Bill and Melinda Gates!!!!!

There actually was a small segment on CNN about a week ago on this line. The Boeing comeback is one if not the greatest comeback in the history of business. I'm fairly sure it was that Miles O'Brian guy.
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:08 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 32):
Maybe they could split by going for the 783 and A350. On the other hand by 2010/2011 SU might expect that they need an aircraft about as large as the 772ER again.

I think what ever the outcome maybe it will not be a split of 787 ang A350's.
Because of size I would the 787.
 Cool
a/c flown 737-222/322/522 757/747-1-2-4, 767-2-3, 777-2-3, A319-20, DC10-10-30, L1011-3-5, 727-222adv, MD85-90 flyourfri
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:33 am

Hmm. I don't get why Aeroflot is choosing a Western aircraft at all. Aren't the Russians eager to promote their Ilyushin 96? It's President Putin's aircraft, for one thing. For another, and more importantly, the Il-96 seems to have been pushed by the Russians as an export aircraft. It's often compared with the A340 and 777 (e.g., in Wikipedia). Is it not good enough for their own national carrier, or are they simply reserving it for export? Having they given up on the Il-96 as a competitive product?

I realize that the Il-96 has not sold well at all, despite the fact that it incorporates some elements of Western tech.

Anyway, more on topic: If this story is accurate, then congratulations to Boeing. But I'll wait until March to celebrate.  

[Edited 2005-12-28 00:34:29]
What's fair is fair.
 
Lemurs
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:13 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:52 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 33):
One can expect that UA, CO, DL and AA will choose the 787-3 to replace their short-to-medium range 762ER/763ER/764ER fleets, which measures in the scores, so that alone would have justified the 787-3 program.

Not CO, unless something changes in the next 5-10 years. They don't operate any widebodies domestically except when repositioning aircraft for maint and using them on occasional charters. Their tactic for a few years now has been to add frequencies when possible to handle extra capacity. Certainly part of the reason why they've decided they've taken plenty of 73G's and 739's, and will instead stick to 738's. I'd be surprised to see CO ordering widebodies for domestic ops anytime in the future unless the landscape changes dramatically. (Like say one of the other Big Six going under.)

That said, I'm sure the 788's will see the more inter-hub hops for repositioning than they might otherwise want to do with the 767's, since the economics will probably be better.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
Halibut
Posts: 943
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:43 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:24 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 42):
Hmm. I don't get why Aeroflot is choosing a Western aircraft at all. Aren't the Russians eager to promote their Ilyushin 96? It's President Putin's aircraft, for one thing. For another, and more importantly, the Il-96 seems to have been pushed by the Russians as an export aircraft. It's often compared with the A340 and 777 (e.g., in Wikipedia). Is it not good enough for their own national carrier, or are they simply reserving it for export? Having they given up on the Il-96 as a competitive product?

Not sure ?
But it might have pissed off Putin when a 96-300 aircraft broke down !


http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuot...05-12-27_06-25-06_l27275701_newsml


The government has promised to ease import restrictions on some Boeing and Airbus models after Russia's flagship Ilyushin-96-300 passenger plane disrupted a trip by President Vladimir Putin, raising concerns about the safety of domestic passenger planes.

Russia grounded all Il-96-300 planes in August for repairs, lifting the ban in October.

*---------------*---------------*---------------*

Maybe we can work out deal with Russia which could involve some Stoli ! bigthumbsup 

Halibut

[Edited 2005-12-28 01:29:22]
6 million Jews were slaughtered-Do you see Jews flying planes into buildings in Germany to kill 1000s of innocent, NO !
 
ChiGB1973
Posts: 1394
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:39 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:39 am

The Ilyushin Il-96-300, designed in 1978 for 11,000-km flights and currently manufactured by the Voronezh Aviation-Construction Holding, has been in regular use since 1993. It is the most advanced jet airliner developed by the Russian aviation industry. The 55.35-meter plane is able to carry 300 passengers and 40 metric tons of cargo with a range of 9,000 km. It uses state-of-the-art flight control and navigational systems, has 60,000 hours of flight time and 12,000 take-offs and landings.It’s considered to be one of Russia’s safest planes as no Ilyushin-96-300 has never crashed.

That last sentence really got me.

M
 
ZKOJH
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RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:18 am

A Russian newspaper (Vedomosti) reports that the national airline Aeroflot plans to lease 22 Boeing 787s.
Vietnam time..
 
RedChili
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:23 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:27 am

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 1):
considering that Aeroflot has been taking up Airbus airplanes and getting rid of the Boeing airplanes, namely 777's.

They also got rid of Airbuses (A310) at the same time as they got rid of the B777. And some A310s were replaced by B763s.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
Actually, given that they have given up on the 777 because of its size, the A350 would likely also be too big.



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 17):
This is the key point - Aeroflot dropped the 777 because of size,

This is a typical a.net myth which has become a "fact" just because so many people repeat it the whole time. The truth is, however, that Aeroflot dropped the 777 because of fleet commonality issues. A few years ago, SU operated nine different passenger planes: A310, B734, B763, B772, IL62, IL86, IL96, T134, and T154. And they only had two B772s. Aeroflot decided to simplify their fleet by removing the IL62 and IL86 from scheduled services, and by replacing their B772s and some A310s with B763s, and the rest of the A310s and all B734s with A320-family airplanes.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 17):
Aeroflot used its 777s on the JFK route,

During the last two years, the B772 was mainly used on the routes to PEK, DEL, and SEA/SFO, plus a few flights to LHR and JFK.

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 30):
Then perhaps you can tell us why wasn't it politics when their single aisle choice was Airbus?

Politics possibly played a part in it, because at the same time as ordering Airbus narrowbodies (A32X), they also decided to go for Boeing widebodies (B763).
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
md90fan
Posts: 2798
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:15 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:13 am

Maybe they can take a pageo from MS and TK and also order 738/9 for higher density routes.  wink 
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
md90fan
Posts: 2798
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:15 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22, Maybe 28, Boeing Aircraft

Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:14 am

Maybe they can take a page from MS and TK and also order 738/9 for higher density routes.  wink 
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/

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