Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

The Future Of LTU German Airlines..

Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:00 pm

Could someone enlighten me with details on the current situation with LTU?
The owners REWE seem to get tired of putting money into the airline but is LTU for sale and could Air Berlin buy it to enter the longhaul business???
Also they seem to focus very much on Düsseldorf -why no other airports in Germany?
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DeltaWings
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RE: The Future Of LTU German Airlines..

Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:54 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Also they seem to focus very much on Düsseldorf -why no other airports in Germany?

Well, in the real early days (when still under the name Luft Transport UNION) they were based in FRA, but that didnt last long and moved to DUS because they wantd to be the "national airline" of northern germany (Nordrhein-Westfalen). As time moved on they just stayed there, no real reason to move I guess.
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Leskova
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RE: The Future Of LTU German Airlines..

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:05 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
The owners REWE seem to get tired of putting money into the airline but is LTU for sale and could Air Berlin buy it to enter the longhaul business???

I'm not sure if Air Berlin would really want to get into longhauls - as someone from Hapag Lloyd once told me around the time they were pulling out of that market: why fly a plane for 8 hours on one flight if the profit you make is just a fraction higher of what you make on a 2 hour flight... only that you can do three to four of those in the same time that it takes to complete just one 8 hour flight (and you're just at your destination then)...

Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 1):
they were based in FRA,

Wasn't aware of that... maybe they also left FRA because of LH's ever-growing dominance...

Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 1):
and moved to DUS because they wantd to be the "national airline" of northern germany

They went to DUS to be the "national airline of northern Germany"???

Maybe they'd have been better served by buying a map first - no-one from Northern Germany would consider DUS a part of Northern Germany... we just usually consider it as that town full of arrogant people somewhere over there in the west...  Wink Big grin

Regards,
Frank
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airevents
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RE: The Future Of LTU German Airlines..

Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:10 pm

In my opinion they are pretty much without a concept at the moment. A bit of "we try to be a business airline", opening almost daily flights to New York and to China, then again being a low-cost airline, offering "City-Quickies" to a place like Vienna three times a day. That never materialised, as Vienna is quite well-served from DUS. I think they should really make up their mind and find a strategy very soon. I think around Europe, there is no point in trying to compete with Air Berlin and the likes. They should concentrate on long-haul tourist destinations, sell those seats directly as well as through travel agents and tour operators and offer a decent product. Diversification is not always the key...
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PETER05
Posts: 18
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RE: The Future Of LTU German Airlines..

Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:02 pm

I like LTU as longhaul-charter airline. I went to Miami several times with LTU departing at Munich and I am going to do that again. It's one of the cheapest and quickest possibilities to go to Florida from Central Europe.

I think that would be the way to go for LTU.
 
columba
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RE: The Future Of LTU German Airlines..

Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:34 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 2):
we just usually consider it as that town full of arrogant people somewhere over there in the west...

 bigthumbsup   rotfl  Good One but you forgot that the people their have a weird sense of humor especially on "Carneval" and drink an awful kind of beer.

Quoting Airevents (Reply 3):
In my opinion they are pretty much without a concept at the moment. A bit of "we try to be a business airline", opening almost daily flights to New York and to China, then again being a low-cost airline, offering "City-Quickies

I have the same impression but I do think, too, that they should not compete with Air Berlin and the likes and focus more on the longhaul market and compete more with Lufthansa. Germany could need a second longhaul airline that gives an alternative to LH. DUS might be the right choice, too.
FRA and MUC are dominated by LH and the area around DUS has the largest population within Germany.
Maybe they could offer code share flights with Air Berlin or DBA. AB or DBA operating as a feeder for LTU´s long haul flights or offer connection flights within Germany and Europe for LTU longhaul passengers that arrived from overseas.
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Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: The Future Of LTU German Airlines..

Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:11 am

Quoting Airevents (Reply 3):
In my opinion they are pretty much without a concept at the moment. A bit of "we try to be a business airline", opening almost daily flights to New York and to China, then again being a low-cost airline, offering "City-Quickies" to a place like Vienna three times a day. That never materialised, as Vienna is quite well-served from DUS.

I agree, LTU is completely without a concept at the moment. The China flights failed after a short time and the VIE flights were discontinued before they actually started. It is a bit ridiculous to see that, makes me wonder if their network developement department is actually doing some research before opening up/announcing new routes.

Quoting Airevents (Reply 3):
They should concentrate on long-haul tourist destinations, sell those seats directly as well as through travel agents and tour operators and offer a decent product.

I agree again, they were quite successful when they used to be the classic "holiday airline" and before they started experiments like the China flights, etc. They should concentrate again on the market with classic holiday destinations, maybe even discontinue their FirstComfort Class (tourists want to fly cheap in a decent Economy Class instead of paying a few 1000 EUR extra to enjoy a few centimeters more legroom).

Also: They got rid of their 757/767 fleet way too quick. I am still asking myself what was wrong with the Boeings, in my opinion were the 757's perfect for short- and medium-haul destinations and the 767's were perfect for long-haul destinations.

Patrick
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columba
Posts: 5053
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: The Future Of LTU German Airlines..

Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:23 am

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 6):
I am still asking myself what was wrong with the Boeings, in my opinion were the 757's perfect for short- and medium-haul destinations and the 767's were perfect for long-haul destinations.

The A321 was more economical then the 757 for the short and medium flights, the A330 was ordered as a L1011 and MD 11 replacement after the A330 arrived there was no need for the 767 anymore.
Maybe it was a wrong decision since Condor has no problem sticking to their 757s and 767s and the mixed fleet of MD 11s, 757/767s and A330s was too much for LTU to handle.
Last year I read an interview with the Chief Pilot of LTU and he said that they are also considering the A340 does anybody know what had happened to that idea.
I don�t know what use the A340 would have for them the A330-200 is perfect for their longer long haul flights and the A330-300 has enough range to fly to Florida and other destinations within the US and Canada. The A330-200 and A330-300 can do nearly every job an A340-300 can do, the A340-600 would be too large and the A340-500 would not make no sense at all despite they would over nonstop flights to Australia and New Zealand.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
DABTH
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:53 am

RE: The Future Of LTU German Airlines..

Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:52 am

Quoting PETER05 (Reply 4):
I like LTU as longhaul-charter airline. I went to Miami several times with LTU departing at Munich and I am going to do that again. It's one of the cheapest and quickest possibilities to go to Florida from Central Europe.

I think that would be the way to go for LTU.

Maybe it is but their service and seating is just awful. Much better to go with LH (also via MUC), BA or AF. Just my opinion
 
HT
Posts: 5857
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 6:20 am

RE: The Future Of LTU German Airlines..

Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 6):
They got rid of their 757/767 fleet way too quick.

AFAIK switching to an "All Airbus" airline was done (at least planned and the proper contracts made) at a time when LTU was part of Swisssair.
Currently LTU has a cap on the number of aircrafts they legally are allowed to operate, as they received some subsidies a while ago (after 9/11).
The recently delivered Airbuses actually are operated by a Austrian subsidiary called LTU Billa ("Billa" is a famous supermarket chain in Austria).
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
474218
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RE: The Future Of LTU German Airlines..

Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:38 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 7):
MD 11s, 757/767s and A330s was too much for LTU to handle.

They had no trouble handling their L-1011 fleet.
 
columba
Posts: 5053
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: The Future Of LTU German Airlines..

Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:47 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 10):
They had no trouble handling their L-1011 fleet.

Sure as they operated the L1011s it was for a long time the only aircraft they used but the huge maintenance costs of having this mixed widebody fleet of MD 11s, Boeing 757s and 767 as well as the A330 nearly broke their neck financially.
According to that interview I mentioned above LTU is now looking for as much commonality as possible within their fleet because of the bad experience they had in the early nineties with the mixed fleet.
For example LTU is one of the few airlines where A320/A321 pilots also fly the A330s other airlines like Lufthansa don´t do that. They have pilots flying the A320 family and others flying the A330/A340.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
TriStar500
Posts: 4411
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 1999 9:50 pm

Re:

Wed Dec 28, 2005 7:40 pm

I don't think that LTU will be able to compete profitably in the large volume markets like PMI, AGP or FAO anymore - these are the markets, in which carriers which much lower production and distribution cost like AB dominate. However, I can see a niche on short- or medium haul routes in niche markets, which might just fly below the radar of their competitors: smaller Greek islands may be an example for that, routes to Iceland or northern Norway and Finland (like they sporadically already fly) or the new full charter to BEY or LYS.

The times for profitably hauling huge volumes of inclusive tour holidaymakers with widebodies on short- to medium haul flights are unfortunately over, save for a few summer months though. Therefore LTU is stuck with an oversized medium haul fleet of A330's, which are just too big for today's segmented markets.

On long haul, there is a market for a second German leisure airline besides Condor. If the destinations are chosen according to demand from their tour operators or according to the needs of the individual markets, I can see less of a problem in this segment. The A330-200 is an attractive aircraft for that. However, they have to sort out their focus - do they want to serve large metropolitan areas with a schedule, which is attractive to Business travellers (like the JFK route), or do they want to focus on leisure-based niche destinations like CUN, MLE or PMV?

[Edited 2005-12-28 12:08:18]
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BA380
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RE: The Future Of LTU German Airlines..

Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:09 pm

I am not sure I agree that LTU is inferior to LH for long-haul.... LH offers no PTVs and is well-known as the worst of the large airlines for Y long-haul, whereas LTU is known as one of the best European charter airlines...
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HT
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RE: The Future Of LTU German Airlines..

Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:18 am

While this is not exactly "the future", but for tomorrow (29-DEC-2005) there´s a flight LT 5406 HAJ - JED which apparently is a Hadj/Haji flight ...
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !

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