Tom12
Topic Author
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KLM-AirFrance, Does The Merger Effect A/L History

Wed Dec 28, 2005 7:20 am

Does the AirFrance-KLM merger effect KLM's claim to being the worlds oldest Airline? The reason i thought this is, is was thinking is AirFrance-KLM, a new company or just an alliance? (sorry about my sentance structure i hope i made it clear enough) I realise this question might be a little dated it is just out of general interest

Thanks
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JRadier
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RE: KLM-AirFrance, Does The Merger Effect A/L History

Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:01 am

KLM still operates under it's own AOC, so I would say yes.
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dl021
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RE: KLM-AirFrance, Does The Merger Effect A/L History

Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:03 am

It is a new company that oversees both airlines, however I do believe that they are operating relatively independently, with some economies of scale, as well as some reduction in overlapping routes.

Does anyone ever see them losing one of their identities?

(knowing AF it would be KL that loses out there)
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FlyingDutchman
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RE: KLM-AirFrance, Does The Merger Effect A/L History

Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:09 am

Quoting Tom12 (Thread starter):
is AirFrance-KLM, a new company or just an alliance? (

It's not a new company the still are two independent "Flag Carriers"

So the merger will not effect the claim of KLM to by the worlds oldest Airline
in mine opinion.

Regards
Flyingdutchman
 
jwenting
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RE: KLM-AirFrance, Does The Merger Effect A/L History

Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:49 pm

The takeover effectively ended KLM as an independent operator so they no longer exist as such (which their claim is based on, oldest INDEPENDENT airline).
Strictly their claim doesn't hold true anyway, because the claim includes the use of the name KLM over that entire interval which is false as they operated for a short period during and after WW2 under the title "Dutch government air transport" (or something along those lines).

There are other airlines that can claim a very long heritage, but they've all been taken over, changed names, restarted, etc..
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JRadier
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RE: KLM-AirFrance, Does The Merger Effect A/L History

Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:56 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 4):
The takeover effectively ended KLM as an independent operator so they no longer exist as such

As long as KLM has it's own AOC (wich they have) they are an independent operator, so this claim doesn't really hold up.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
jwenting
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RE: KLM-AirFrance, Does The Merger Effect A/L History

Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:27 pm

Depends on how you define the term... If by independent you mean they aren't on a corporate level they're no longer independent.
It's similar to the claims from Chalks that they're the oldest. According to their logic they are but it's a different logic from the one used by KLM.
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FlySSC
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RE: KLM-AirFrance, Does The Merger Effect A/L History

Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:47 pm

Quoting Tom12 (Thread starter):
a new company or just an alliance?

AF bought KLM, and formed AF-KLM. It is a company, operating (for the moment) two brands : KLM from the Hub of AMS and AF from the Hub of CDG.

The past "history" of each airline remains the same ... as long as the two brands remain "alive".
I don't think the name "KLM" will disapear to become Air France.
The whole entity could operate one brand called Air France-KLM, but not only AF or not only KL.
The other solution is to drop both AF and KLM and adopt a single common name, but that's unlikely to happen... at least in a near future (maybe when AF-KLM will buy out and merge with DL/NW/AZ ... Then they won't be able to simply add the name of the latest bought airline  Wink ).

Quoting Flyingdutchman (Reply 3):
It's not a new company the still are two independent "Flag Carriers"

You can call them "Flag carriers" if you like it ... AF-KLM is the Dutch Flag carrier and AF-KLM is the ... French flag carrier. But they are not "independent" from each other as the Strategy is decided for the whole group, with specific "missions" or/and market assigned to one or the other brand. Moreover, all the financial results are now published for AF-KLM.
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: KLM-AirFrance, Does The Merger Effect A/L History

Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:58 pm

I think the term 'merger' is a misnomer.....mergers happen when two companies merge their operations to form a new combined entity with a common infrastructure and manpower....I think that's not happened completely in the case of AF and KL....
 
FlySSC
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RE: KLM-AirFrance, Does The Merger Effect A/L History

Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:06 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 8):
I think the term 'merger' is a misnomer.....

The term "merger" is right.
The problem is some people didn't "acept" yet the fact that AF could buy KLM.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 8):
mergers happen when two companies merge their operations to form a new combined entity with a common infrastructure and manpower

That's exactely what heppened. "Air France" & "K.L.M" are just two different brands, as I mentionned in my reply#7.
AF & KL merged very recently, all the job cann't be done in 6 months, but a lot of people from both AF & KL are working on it, with more and more common agencies in the world, one single Station manager for both AF & KL (like in THR, SXM) etc...
 
PHKLM
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RE: KLM-AirFrance, Does The Merger Effect A/L History

Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:43 am

Well, you're right in saying KL/AF is a French company, based in Paris, under French law owning both the former AF and KL companies. There's a lot of legal stuff and other yada yada in the merger involved, about preferential shares held by de Dutch government and the SAK1 and SAK2 foundations.
The company -repeatedly- stated that it is its intention to work with a two-hub system (AMS/CDG).
For more information, see http://www.airfranceklm-finance.com
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: KLM-AirFrance, Does The Merger Effect A/L History

Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:51 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 9):
That's exactely what heppened. "Air France" & "K.L.M" are just two different brands, as I mentionned in my reply#7.
AF & KL merged very recently, all the job cann't be done in 6 months, but a lot of people from both AF & KL are working on it, with more and more common agencies in the world, one single Station manager for both AF & KL (like in THR, SXM) etc...

I stand corrected.....

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