JAFA
Topic Author
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NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:58 am

I am not claiming to have insider knowledge of such a merger. However, an analyst predcited that within the next 24 months this will happpen.
While mergers of the major airlines have been discussed ad nauseum, what about a LCC and a legacy.

Some benefits of a Air Tran and NWA merger include:

elimination of a NWA competitor
quick acquisition of 100 seat aircraft replacement (717)
elimination of the uneconomic DC9
gaining a hub with decent O & D traffic (ATL)
gaining a new customer base and market share
gaining a low cost workforce
gaining delivery spots of a large number of 737's (if wanted or needed)

I look forward to your comments!
 
burnsie28
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:35 am

Hahaha, wow, this is a rather interesting prediction, so I take it the new airline would then take the name Northwest (A more widely known name throughout the world). While it seems a little odd, it could happen, its much like the US/HP merger I would think that operations would pretty much leave Atlanta though seeing how NW and DL are partners. There are quite a bit of 717's but with Boeing ending production it might not be a wise choice, and the mixture of A320's and NG 737's would pose somewhat of a problem, probably rid the 737's. But going back in history, Air Tran has always had some ties to Northwest, in fact, Air Tran was originally started by Mesaba, of which Northwest pretty much controls. Overall, I thinks its a very small chance of it happening. But in this day in age, you never know.
 
flyf15
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:39 am

You can't maintain a hub and replace the DC-9s at the same time. Say NW has 100 DC-9s and AirTran has 100 B717s. You can either replace the DC-9s and eliminate AirTran or you keep the Atlanta hub and keep both sets of planes.
 
EddieDude
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:28 am

Interesting prediction. Was it someone from a large investment bank who made this prediction?

Quoting JAFA (Thread starter):
gaining a hub with decent O & D traffic (ATL)

I bet DL would love to see NW kicked out of SkyTeam if this ever happened.

Quoting JAFA (Thread starter):
gaining a low cost workforce

This could be very positive IMHO.

Quoting JAFA (Thread starter):
gaining delivery spots of a large number of 737's (if wanted or needed)

This is ridiculous as NW is a major A32x operator.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
srbmod
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 6:49 am

One thing to note is that a number of FL higher ups spent time @ NW:

CEO & Chairman of the Board Joe Leonard
President & COO Robert Fornano
SR. VP Finance & CFO Stan Gadek
SR. VP Customer Service Jack Smith
VP Human Resources Loral Blinde
VP Inflight Services Susan Manfredi
Director of Corporate Safety Jean-Pierre Dagon

VP Flight Ops Klaus Goersch came to FL from Mesaba.

AirTran over the years has had a number of ex-NW people in management. When I was working there, the ATL Station Manager was one of the NW folks let go after the infamous DTW snowstorm strandings in 1999. The VP of customer service at the time was also ex-NW as well.
 
Kahala777
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 6:59 am

Quoting JAFA (Thread starter):
I am not claiming to have insider knowledge of such a merger. However, an analyst predcited that within the next 24 months this will happpen.

Are you kidding? 24 Months? Most airlines dont even last the first 6.. This is someones idea of a joke..

Quoting JAFA (Thread starter):
elimination of a NWA competitor

Yes, we know that NWA is in fear of the big and bad LCC Air Tran! Come On!

Quoting JAFA (Thread starter):
gaining a hub with decent O & D traffic (ATL)

And why would NWA, want yet another hub?

Quoting JAFA (Thread starter):
gaining a new customer base and market share

NWA is a full service airline, not an LCC... The customer bases are oil and water. As far as market share, NWA, would drop more than half of the Air Tran routes overnight, if this were to happen.

Quoting JAFA (Thread starter):
gaining a low cost workforce

How much more low cost can you get, after everyone is outsourced?

Quoting JAFA (Thread starter):
gaining delivery spots of a large number of 737's (if wanted or needed)

NWA, has had many chances to order the 737 over the years. The 737 was not chosen time and time again.

Quoting JAFA (Thread starter):
quick acquisition of 100 seat aircraft replacement (717)

There are not enough 717's in service to fill all of the needs to replace the NWA DC9 fleet.

KAHALA777
 
F27XXX
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 7:16 am

Wait a minute here ----

NWA is the one with one foot firmly entrenched in bankruptcy court - and the other on a banana peel - and AirTran is the one doing well and growing in leaps and bounds.

Why is it assumed that NW will be buying FL? Why would FL even wanna agree to be taken over by NW (god, why would anyone) .... and where would NW miraculously come up with the money it would need to buy FL?

If anything, I'd think it would be the other way round. ANd again - why would FL want all that trouble? Wait till NW goes down and then hand pick what assets you want - why take on NW in the state its in now? God what a mess!

NW taking over FL - - that takes the bag o peanuts as the single most idiotic idea i've read on here yet (today).
I'M BAAAAAAAACK!
 
wjcandee
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 7:21 am

This would be a culture clash of enormous proportions. It would be foolish for Airtran, and unnecessary for Northwest (not to mention unaffordable). Merging the employee groups would create all sorts of problems. Northwest doesn't need the 717s. Aargh. Why am I even responding to this? NONE of the purported "benefits" that the original poster mentioned are in fact potential benefits of such a transaction. Wouldn't happen.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 7:23 am

North-Tran
Air-West
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bobnwa
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 7:24 am

Quoting F27XXX (Reply 6):
Why is it assumed that NW will be buying FL?

Air Tran doesn't have the resources to buy Northwest but then again neither does Northwest. It would have to be borrowed money but more than likely NW would do the buying. Do you think America West had the money in hand to buy US Airways?

Quoting F27XXX (Reply 6):
Why would FL even wanna agree to be taken over by NW (god, why would anyone) .

Air Tran doesn't have to agree to be taken over. All it takes is to buy enough of its shares on the market to control it. Its called a takeover.
 
burnsie28
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 7:25 am

Doesnt mean NW would take over AirTran, but it might be like the US/HP where America West takes over US Airways but keeps the US name. Brand recognition is huge, that to me is why it would be Northwest still.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 7:51 am

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 4):
One thing to note is that a number of FL higher ups spent time @ NW:

CEO & Chairman of the Board Joe Leonard
President & COO Robert Fornano
SR. VP Finance & CFO Stan Gadek
SR. VP Customer Service Jack Smith
VP Human Resources Loral Blinde

And some who were shown the door at Northwest after failing at their managerial positions. Why would NW want people back in place after failing the company in the first place? For instance, Leonard himself, helped run Eastern into the ground. After he accomplished that, he jumped onboard Northwest. Shortly after, Northwest was eager to show him where the door was and for him to let himself out. After bailing(more like being bailed) from NW, the only other carrier that was willing to touch him was Airtran. I don't think NW is eager to have him back into their ranks.



OttoPylit
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bucky707
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:47 am

Back when I was a ValuJet pilot there was a rumor going around that NW was going to buy us. Never happened and I don't see an Airtran/NW merger either.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:50 am

JAFA Lead post......If NW wanted the 717, they would have BOUGHT IT!. You forgot that NW and McDonnell Douglas together developed the MD-95. Today that plane is called the Boeing 717.
I was thinking of NW and AW merging but that went down the toilet and we know why.
safe

 smirk 
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
m404
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:56 am

Lets shift this rather far out rumor and have AirTran the low bidder to operate Newco all the DC9s for NW. Makes a lot more sense.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
MSYtristar
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:18 am

Jesus I hope not. Talk about a poor deal for FL!

Why would any self respecting airline want to merge with NW?! Yikes.

And yeah, I know this is all "what if" talk, but still, it would be a sad, sad day for the employees of FL.
 
travatl
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:21 am

Are you basing this "prediction" on the Mark Tatge article from Forbes? I would hardly call it that, but rather a speculation on other LCCs and Legacies getting together if the US/HP merger is successful. In fact, what he said was:

The Watch List

-- US Airways Group (otc: UAIRQ - news - people) : Investors and lenders threw $745 million at this shotgun marriage of bankrupt US Airways and America West Airlines (nyse: AWA - news - people ), thinking Chief Executive W. Douglas Parker could fix what several other bosses and two brushes with bankruptcy couldn’t: US Airways' poor route structure, grumpy pilots and uncompetitive costs. The new US Airways faces big integration hurdles, but is a test case for airline mergers. Does it work to merge a low-cost upstart (America West) with an established legacy carrier (US Airways), hiring the discount carrier’s boss to run the whole shebang? If so, could an AirTran (nyse: AAI - news - people )-JetBlue combination with Delta Airlines (nyse: DAL - news - people ) or Northwest Airlines (nasdaq: NWAC - news - people ) be far behind?


Hardly a "prediction"...

Travis
 
N723GW
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:28 am

I actually think this would be a good feat for FL- getting rid of NWA, the typical passenger may of heard of NWA, but like many have said before, passengers mainly don't give a crap about who they are flying as long as the price is low. I would like to see FL "absorb" NWA though kind of like WN did with the most part of TZ....LOL! But can you imagine seeing a DC10 in FL colors?!!?!  crazy 
The dude abides
 
burnsie28
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:55 am

Quoting N723GW (Reply 17):
I actually think this would be a good feat for FL- getting rid of NWA, the typical passenger may of heard of NWA, but like many have said before, passengers mainly don't give a crap about who they are flying as long as the price is low. I would like to see FL "absorb" NWA though kind of like WN did with the most part of TZ....LOL! But can you imagine seeing a DC10 in FL colors?!!?!

More people know worldwide the name Northwest, and I highly doubt the Japanese government would really go for that.
 
CVGpilot
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:08 pm

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 5):
Are you kidding? 24 Months? Most airlines dont even last the first 6.. This is someones idea of a joke..

- AirTran has been around for over 3 years. I think the evidence does add up, however AirTran is sitten pretty sweet, like to see them stay single for a while. "AAI $15.74 currently"
 airplane 
 
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zippyjet
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:19 pm

Quoting Travatl (Reply 16):
The Watch List

-- US Airways Group (otc: UAIRQ - news - people) : Investors and lenders threw $745 million at this shotgun marriage of bankrupt US Airways and America West Airlines (nyse: AWA - news - people ), thinking Chief Executive W. Douglas Parker could fix what several other bosses and two brushes with bankruptcy couldn’t: US Airways' poor route structure, grumpy pilots and uncompetitive costs. The new US Airways faces big integration hurdles, but is a test case for airline mergers

Remember US swallowing Piedmont back in '89. The once up and coming Piedmont jumped the shark when it was pulled into US. Some folks who were Piedmont still rue the day this happened!

I feel our company FL is doing fine and we need those geriatric DC-9's from NW the way we need another year of record strength hurricanes.
These rumors or speculations are like Aviation "Fear Factor!"
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
WDBRR
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:27 pm

I remember reading that after Eastern ceased operations in 1991 (15 years ago next month), Northwest was interested in starting a hub there with the 33 Eastern gates in Concourse "C" there that were available. They decided not to compete with Delta and started their hub in Memphis. Ironically, Valujet/AirTran now uses 1/2 the gates in concourse "C" which NW was interested in.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:44 pm

Quoting WDBRR (Reply 21):
I remember reading that after Eastern ceased operations in 1991 (15 years ago next month), Northwest was interested in starting a hub there with the 33 Eastern gates in Concourse "C" there that were available. They decided not to compete with Delta and started their hub in Memphis. Ironically, Valujet/AirTran now uses 1/2 the gates in concourse "C" which NW was interested in.

I'll assume you are referring to Hotlanta, not Miami Vice?
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
skymileman
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:10 pm

I just had to comment. Someone up above referred to Northwest as a FULL SERIVCE airline. That's the biggest joke I ever heard. They charge you for the freaking pack of snack mix!! Not to mention the fact that their service sucks. They are far more of a no-frills carrier than any true no-frills carrier. Full-Service and Northwest cannot be used in the same sentence.
 
flyingchoirboy
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:12 pm

let's see, how can I make my feelings known...how bout

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Airtran is a GREAT airline with GREAT customer service and GREAT planes! I would hate if that would happen. Let Airtran remain Airtran, alone and for good!

-Flyingchoirboy
 
Guest

RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:23 pm

Things I've seen on this board in the past six months...

- Delta should sell it's 764's to Air Canada.

- United is unhappy with it's 757's.

- Delta and Northwest are going to merge.

- Delta is getting rid of it's 757's.

...and now this.

No, it's not going to happen...ever...it's ridiculous...just stop.

B
 
alphascan
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:18 pm

Quoting JAFA (Thread starter):
However, an analyst predcited that within the next 24 months this will happpen.

Its customary among serious posters to name sources and provide links.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
airtran737
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:53 pm

Quoting CVGpilot (Reply 19):
AirTran has been around for over 3 years.

Actually we've been around for 12 years.

Furthermore, I think a merger with NW is the worst thing possible. FL and NW are two extremely different cultures, we're the young hip kids and they are the old men who are screaming at us from there porches to slow down for driving 28 m.p.h in a 25 m.p.h. zone. Think of all the lawsuits that would be involved between the two companies workgroups, AirTran is represented by an in house pilot union, the AFA for flight attendants, Teamsters for mechanics, and the TWU for dispatchers, and stores clerks are also Teamsters. Northwest has ALPA, the ramp,/customer service have the IAM, mechanics are scabs so they don't have a union, and I'm not sure what the flight attendants are. If the FL workgroups approved a merger they would be giving their jobs away, NW has so many employees on furlough right now that they would recall them and bump us out of our jobs, why would we want to do that?


I dont think you will ever see this one happen. A merger between FL and AS, that's a bit more plausible and very realistic, no overlapping routes and soon to be fleet commonality. Oh well we'll see what happens.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
IcelandairMSP
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:28 pm

Goodness. FL is not an airline I would associate with "hip young kids." It's a cheap airline that caters to families wanting to go to Disney World but can't afford a regular legacy airline ticket. That said, I would expect there to be some sort of a merger somewhere in the NW, DL, CO, AS mix seeing as all those airlines seem to have numerous relationships that might foster more of a working relationship for a merger. Besides, true low fare airlines like FL, Southwest, F9, etc. are not particularly interested in mergers. It is always in their best interests to work alone and not have to scratch anyone else's back. That's one small reason SW has done so well for so long. NW is so involved in Skyteam thanks to the long-standing relationship with KL which happened to merge with a founding member of Skyteam. A merger will only happen if necessity arises. NW may be in dire straits, FL is not. FL would do better merging with Frontier, for example. Anyway, I'm rambling. you get my drift.
 
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antoniemey
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 6:15 pm

Quoting NonRevKing (Reply 25):
Delta should sell it's 764's to Air Canada.

- United is unhappy with it's 757's.

- Delta and Northwest are going to merge.

- Delta is getting rid of it's 757's.

...and now this.

You forgot Continental merging with UA and the three-way CO-DL-NW merger.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
bonanzaair
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 6:48 pm

Airtran avoided merging/buyout with ATA because Airtran management didn't want to consolidate work groups between Airtran and ATA. That thought process cost Airtran the 14 gates at MDW and allowed Southwest to bid higher in ATA's bankruptcy proceedings.

Look at the Airtran expansion at IND and MDW and remember it didn't cost Airtran the $90m promised to ATA. Airtran will have 5 gates at MDW. I would never say never with Joe Leonard or Stan Gadek, but I'd bet they would rather pick the bones than merge workgroups.

What I find interesting is that both Midwest and now NWA to some degree have setup virtual airlines with contracted workgroups. Easier to sell the pieces without union workgroups involved.


Airtran is doing just fine ...ready for any bargain (BWI) that comes along.

Bonanza
 
isitsafenow
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:04 pm

WDBRR... You forgot the 11month old TWA hub at ATL just prior to ValueJet.
I used Twa a dozen or so times to FLA and thought it was a great idea until
TWA figured out that they did want to compete with DL and FL so they circled their wagons at STL to ward off a Southwest buildup.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
ORDagent
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:44 pm

Quoting BonanzaAir (Reply 30):
Airtran will have 5 gates at MDW

Is this a done deal? I like FL here at MDW. I haven't been in MDW for almost a year now and don't remember FL having that many gates.
 
quickmover
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:47 pm

"Airtran will have 5 gates at MDW"

I thought it was 4 gates.
 
bonanzaair
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:50 pm

The five Airtran MDW gates will be in place by summer. New service has been announced or already flying for MDW/ DFW, MSP, BOS, EWR. Additonal service is planned for ATL and Florida.

Bonanza
 
DAYflyer
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:56 pm

Right.

The worst rumor merger in 2005. NW neither wants or needs new aircraft types 737/717 thrown into the mix. Airtran is not looking to merge unless they emerge as the dominant airline.
One Nation Under God
 
crash65
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:46 am

Quoting Travatl quoting Mark Tatge of Forbes (Reply 16):
US Airways' poor route structure, grumpy pilots and uncompetitive costs. The new US Airways faces big integration hurdles, but is a test case for airline mergers.

5 years ago I dumped my subscription to Forbes because of ridiculous, crackpot journalists like Tatge. What in the world do grumpy pilots have to do with US Airways abysmal financial performance. Which came first, the inept management or the bad employee attitude? One is definitely the product of the other, and in this age I can think of very few airline executives that cared more about his employees than his stock options.
 
BH
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 33):
"Airtran will have 5 gates at MDW"

I thought it was 4 gates.

In the letter I read it stated that we were getting 4 *More* gates.
 
quickmover
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:14 am

"In the letter I read it stated that we were getting 4 *More* gates."

I didn't catch the "more" part. That's great news.
The last press release I saw had them at 28 or so flights (including the EWR, DFW, etc.. flights) Five gates could handle almost double that amount of flights. Have you heard about anything else on tap at MDW?
 
blackearth
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting WDBRR (Reply 21):
remember reading that after Eastern ceased operations in 1991 (15 years ago next month), Northwest was interested in starting a hub there with the 33 Eastern gates in Concourse "C" there that were available. They decided not to compete with Delta and started their hub in Memphis. Ironically, Valujet/AirTran now uses 1/2 the gates in concourse "C" which NW was interested in.

Northwest's Memphis hub didn't start then. Memphis was a Northwest hub as a result of the Republic merger back in the mid-eighties.
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 5):
And why would NWA, want yet another hub?

I think that it was implicit that Memphis would be shut down if this occured.

Quoting IcelandairMSP (Reply 28):
Goodness. FL is not an airline I would associate with "hip young kids." It's a cheap airline that caters to families wanting to go to Disney World but can't afford a regular legacy airline ticket.

I used to fly them regularly from PHL-ATL for work. Much better experience than flying DL - Nice planes, nice people, and a lot more likely to run on time. There were a lot of other people flying them for business as well.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
IcelandairMSP
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:31 am

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 40):
Quoting IcelandairMSP (Reply 28):
Goodness. FL is not an airline I would associate with "hip young kids." It's a cheap airline that caters to families wanting to go to Disney World but can't afford a regular legacy airline ticket.

I used to fly them regularly from PHL-ATL for work. Much better experience than flying DL - Nice planes, nice people, and a lot more likely to run on time. There were a lot of other people flying them for business as well.

It's true. The image just isn't slick like, say, F9 or what Virgin America is purported to become. All of my experiences with Airtran have been pleasant. Image wise though, NW and Airtran aren't terribly different. One just happens to be older and maybe headed for the funny farm. Who knows.
 
srbmod
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:00 am

Quoting Blackearth (Reply 39):
Northwest's Memphis hub didn't start then. Memphis was a Northwest hub as a result of the Republic merger back in the mid-eighties.

And Republic had killed their ATL hub not too many years after the North Central/Southern merger.
 
BH
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Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2001 7:27 am

RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:06 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 11):
And some who were shown the door at Northwest after failing at their managerial positions. Why would NW want people back in place after failing the company in the first place? For instance, Leonard himself, helped run Eastern into the ground. After he accomplished that, he jumped onboard Northwest. Shortly after, Northwest was eager to show him where the door was and for him to let himself out. After bailing(more like being bailed) from NW, the only other carrier that was willing to touch him was Airtran. I don't think NW is eager to have him back into their ranks.

I'm sure they would love to have Him back. Look at how FL has performed since he and others have been there. Look at all the havoc they have caused DL. Imaging where they (NW) could be now if they had gave him time to do his thing. Now they can just sit back and watch hoping that someone they let go wont come back in bite them in the but.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:08 pm

Quoting BH (Reply 43):
Look at how FL has performed since he and others have been there.

Performed? I don't see much performing going on. I see them realizing they have to change planes because the 717 was a failure, although FL keeps saying how it is a niche-market airplane and fits in perfectly. Riiiiight. And the only thing that is paying for those planes(besides the sweet deal FL got on them) are the subsidies that Airtran only flies for. How much was the RIC up to, $500,000 for any new routes to the airport?

Quoting BH (Reply 43):
Look at all the havoc they have caused DL.

LOL What havoc? Please point out what havoc they have caused DL? I don't see any. DL sits on any unused gates in ATL, so FL isn't going anywhere anytime soon, well, from ATL anyway. And why do you think they went to BWI and started doing more point to point? DL is in bankruptcy, but that is because of the fuel prices and no hedging, not Airtran. And that only helps DL since they have the extra cash to re-arrange the flight schedules. Have you noticed there is no market that FL now serves that DL doesn't serve with its superior schedule and FF program, even though there weren't that many markets that didn't have the competition, now there are none. And you call that havoc?

Quoting BH (Reply 43):
Imaging where they (NW) could be now if they had gave him time to do his thing.

They gave him his time and he ruined it. Do a little research on the fella and take a look at his resume. Its pretty disappointing, to say the least. Otherwise, they would have hired him first, and not Joseph Corr to clean house after the Valujet/Airtran merger.

Quoting BH (Reply 43):
Now they can just sit back and watch hoping that someone they let go wont come back in bite them in the but.

I don't think they are worried. NW isn't known to regret much or play nice to LCC's.




OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
N501US
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 1:51 am

RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:19 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 11):
For instance, Leonard himself, helped run Eastern into the ground. After he accomplished that, he jumped onboard Northwest. Shortly after, Northwest was eager to show him where the door was and for him to let himself out. After bailing(more like being bailed) from NW, the only other carrier that was willing to touch him was Airtran. I don't think NW is eager to have him back into their ranks.

A little bit of background: Joe Leonard was groomed at NW under the Donald Nyrop era and then went to Eastern. He has a long history with NW and I believe he still has property and family in MN.

Honestly, when I first started reading the thread I thought "no way". I'm leaning towards "hmm, interesting concept", now. FL has their J class on flights which equates to a couple of free drinks and snacks while NW offers the same type of service on its shorter (non-international) flights.

And lets look at governmental apporval.....I'd think an NW/FL deal would be much easier to push through than NW with AA or DL or any other legacy carrier.

Ah, but this all speculation. Interesting, though.

Happy New Year!
Fools and thieves are well disguised in the temple and the marketplace.....
 
BH
Posts: 518
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2001 7:27 am

RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 44):
Performed? I don't see much performing going on. I see them realizing they have to change planes because the 717 was a failure, although FL keeps saying how it is a niche-market airplane and fits in perfectly. Riiiiight. And the only thing that is paying for those planes(besides the sweet deal FL got on them) are the subsidies that Airtran only flies for. How much was the RIC up to, $500,000 for any new routes to the airport?

This must be some of your self analysis that is obviously bias. The 717 was/is not a failure for FL, Maybe Boeing but in no way FL.


Who cares if they get subsidies. The government decides that they want new service or additional service so they offer airlines money. FL by far is not the only airline that does this. The bottom line is that the city decides to give the money away so why not take it.

All the things you are saying are the only reasons FL can pay for this or that are what you call good business decisions. Obviously there are other airlines that haven't made the best decisions but we wont say names.

1.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 44):
And the only thing that is paying for those planes(besides the sweet deal FL got on them

Getting a sweet deal instead of bleeding cash. They got an a/c that fit there needs that needed a launch customer, so they jumped on it and got a good deal.Sounds like smart business to me

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 44):
LOL What havoc? Please point out what havoc they have caused DL? I don't see any. DL sits on any unused gates in ATL, so FL isn't going anywhere anytime soon, well, from ATL anyway. And why do you think they went to BWI and started doing more point to point? DL is in bankruptcy, but that is because of the fuel prices and no hedging, not Airtran

No One has said that FL has caused DL to go in to BK all together, But the are definately a contributing factor along with fuel and other variables. Or Maybe its not FL's doing and Its the Wigets own doing by allowing FL to just grow in there own backyard.


Well anyways this is way of the FL/NW subject. Congrats BIG O/P you have successfully hijacked another FL thread and filled it with complete nonsense. I hope you are happy Foooowell.
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:58 am

OttoPylit....Post 44...If the 717 was a failure, why did airTran buy six more WITH the 737 order?

Reading your post,you sound like airTran isn't a factor to DL at ATL.
The way I see it is...all those people boarding airTran at ATL?...those were
Delta customers. Wander down to the C at ATL sometime and notice what's going on there.

Doesn't airTran use fuel for their planes like DL does?

We agree on one thing. NW does NOT play nice to LCC's. They have FL in their sites at FNT. Where FL goes from FNT, so does NW. Both carriers know that the north Detroit area is a $$$ market. Where airTran announces new nonstop service from FNT to wherever, NW matches the announcement and service.

Look at NW vs. ATA at IND and the attempt to take pax from Midwest at MKE. That did not work, only because Midwest has a better product....2 abreast seating in 717 vs. NW RJ's. That's a no brainer on who you want to fly out of MKE.

safe  checkmark 
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
BH
Posts: 518
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2001 7:27 am

RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:52 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 47):
OttoPylit....Post 44...If the 717 was a failure, why did airTran buy six more WITH the 737 order?

Reading your post,you sound like airTran isn't a factor to DL at ATL.
The way I see it is...all those people boarding airTran at ATL?...those were
Delta customers. Wander down to the C at ATL sometime and notice what's going on there.

Doesn't airTran use fuel for their planes like DL does?

We agree on one thing. NW does NOT play nice to LCC's. They have FL in their sites at FNT. Where FL goes from FNT, so does NW. Both carriers know that the north Detroit area is a $$$ market. Where airTran announces new nonstop service from FNT to wherever, NW matches the announcement and service.

Look at NW vs. ATA at IND and the attempt to take pax from Midwest at MKE. That did not work, only because Midwest has a better product....2 abreast seating in 717 vs. NW RJ's. That's a no brainer on who you want to fly out of MKE.

safe

Ditto
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: NWA / Air Tran Merger?

Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:29 am

Quoting N501US (Reply 45):
FL has their J class on flights which equates to a couple of free drinks and snacks while NW offers the same type of service on its shorter (non-international) flights.

Ehh, not so much. On most NW domestic flights, when a $3 snackbox is offered, First Class has a full meal--not potato chips.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!

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