AEROFAN
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Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:11 am

I was looking for a fllight in Feb to Barbados on CO. I'm now getting a message that they will no longer be flying to BGI effective 15 Jan 2006. Can anyone shed any light on this? I thought this flight was doing ok?
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:34 am

Too bad. Seems like it would have made more sense to have a mid to late afternoon flight from EWR to BGI and have the a/c overnight in BGI in order to allow European connections in EWR.
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CALMSP
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:47 am

yes we will be ending service to BGI
 
Cory6188
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:51 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 2):
yes we will be ending service to BGI

We've established that already - the question is why.
 
trintocan
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:04 am

Already? CO has not been flying to BGI for very long. With BGI being an important tourist market and also a reasonable O&D market one wonders what went wrong with CO there. Is it that there are too many carriers to the US from BGI (AA, BW, JM, US and CO)? Or some other problems? Maybe someone would shed some light on this matter.

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jetbluefan1
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:20 am

I would expect B6 to pick up this market out of JFK if the A320 can make it. They've been looking to expand their Caribbean presence and with CO out of the picture this may help.

BTW doesn't AA have a non-stop from JFK?

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MAH4546
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:32 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 5):
I would expect B6 to pick up this market out of JFK if the A320 can make it. They've been looking to expand their Caribbean presence and with CO out of the picture this may help.

Don't count on it. This is a heavy VFR market that requires a large aircraft. An A320 has the range, but won't be able to handle the luggage, which was the problem with Santo Domingo. They are still in Santiago, DR because the demographics of the market (Santiago, DR is a wealthy city with a large middle and upper class) doesn't carry as much baggage back home). Look for markets like Aruba and Bermuda, not Bridgetown and Port of Spain.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 5):

BTW doesn't AA have a non-stop from JFK?

Yes. Until recently it was a daily 763, but because of aircraft allocation, they are now using a 757. Until recently they were even using a 763 from MIA, but it was transfered to MIA-POS. BWIA also offers six weekly JFK-BGI flights.

[Edited 2005-12-30 00:33:44]
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Kahala777
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:36 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
This is a heavy VFR market that requires a large aircraft. An A320 has the range, but won't be able to handle the luggage, which was the problem with Santo Domingo. They are still in Santiago, DR because the demographics of the market (Santiago, DR is a wealthy city with a large middle and upper class) doesn't carry as much baggage back home). Look for markets like Aruba and Bermuda, not Bridgetown and Port of Spain.

So you are saying the VFR on Delta Airlines 737-800 BGI-ATL is less?

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Kahala777
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:37 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 5):
I would expect B6 to pick up this market out of JFK if the A320 can make it. They've been looking to expand their Caribbean presence and with CO out of the picture this may help.

Now wouldnt it be ironic if Jet Blue started service from Newark to Bridgetown?  wink 

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2travel2know
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:43 am

Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 1):
Seems like it would have made more sense to have a mid to late afternoon flight from EWR to BGI and have the a/c overnight in BGI in order to allow European connections in EWR

This could have made that flight work. But on the other hand, a late evenning BGI arrival means little or no connecting possibilities to other islands upon arrival.
How about a red-eye EWR departure, would it work too?

[Edited 2005-12-30 02:45:11]
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MAH4546
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:46 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 7):
So you are saying the VFR on Delta Airlines 737-800 BGI-ATL is less?

Yes. Especially considering that the huge majority of that VFR traffic comes from the Miami, DC, and New York City areas.

Bridgetown isn't much of a tourist destination, especially not compared to other Caribbean cities. It is more VFR and business. American Airlines doesn't even consider Bridgetown as part of their Caribbean network in terms of service levels. Bridgetown (and Port of Spain) is considered South America, and gets the same service levels, including meal service, that other South American flights get.
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Kahala777
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:59 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
Bridgetown isn't much of a tourist destination, especially not compared to other Caribbean cities. It is more VFR and business.

You mean from the U.S. right? There are many, many British tourists in Barbados on a daily basis..

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AJMIA
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:05 am

At AA we now have a morning and an afternoon MIA-BGI flight. Both flights have very good loads.

Many tourists on the morning flight, and predominantly VFR on the afternoon. LOTS of bags.

I am seeing more tourists to BB lately. My brother & sister-in-law went to the Almond Beach Club earlier this year and they loved it.

AJMIA
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Speedbird2155
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:09 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
Bridgetown isn't much of a tourist destination, especially not compared to other Caribbean cities. It is more VFR and business.

I'd suggest you check again. Being from BGI, I can tell you it is a significant player in the Caribbean tourism arena. Yes there is a large proportion of VFR and business travel, but that does not mean that the tourist numbers are not significant. The number of airlines on the US-BGI routes wouldn't be there if they were to rely only on the business and VFR markets. Note the number of people who live on BGI and you'd realise that there can only be so many people travelling for VFR each year.
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:58 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
An A320 has the range, but won't be able to handle the luggage

AC handles the trek from YUL/YYZ on 319's and 320's at various points throughout the year, without any apparent problems. Market mix is relatively the same.
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BWIA 772
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
Bridgetown isn't much of a tourist destination, especially not compared to other Caribbean cities. It is more VFR and business. American Airlines doesn't even consider Bridgetown as part of their Caribbean network in terms of service levels. Bridgetown (and Port of Spain) is considered South America, and gets the same service levels, including meal service, that other South American flights get.

As for the AA thing I dont work their so I dont know, however we included in the American Eagle network and how many countries are serviced by Eagle

You need to do some research. BGI have been seeing tourist arrivals in excess of half million for every year except 2002 and this year as the figures aren't out for 2005. Barbados is a more upscale destination than other Caribbean islands and in recent years the number of North American Vistors have been on the rise.


Infact yesterday when I went to Bridgetown it was full with tourist. As Speedbird 2155 pointed out with a population of just 260 000 the VFR market accounts for only so much of the traffic to and from the island. So AA DL and US must have some other pax other than the VFR.
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Canada Mike
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:10 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
This is a heavy VFR market that requires a large aircraft.

VFR?? I know this isn't referring to visual flight rules...so what's that mean, exactly?

Thanks
 
trintocan
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:30 am

BGI is a massive tourist market, especially from the UK and Europe but there has long been a steady tourist flow from the US and Canada. One only needs to visit BGI during the high season (ie now!) and see that the Tarmac is carpeted with UK charter aircraft - when I last visited 5 years ago I counted 5 Britannia 767s on the ramp! It is true that BGI has a relatively large VFR market by Caribbean standards (in the Eastern Caribbean it is second only to POS) and a sizeable business market but it is predominantly a tourist market for overseas airlines. In saying that it is a premium tourist market, hence the tendency for BA, AA, VS etc to put their premium products there (eg 3-class BA 777s with First Class into BGI with 2-class birds used to UVF, TAB etc.).

What is still not clear is why CO pulled out - maybe it is the competition (I forgot that DL also served BGI, they had previously shared code with JM).

ps VFR = visiting friends and relatives, a market that tends to offer little growth but a bedrock of support to any airline that successfully targets it.

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MAH4546
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:04 am

Sorry for not being clear. I'm not saying that American tourists don't go to Barbados, they definitley do, but not in huge numbers.

BGI is far from being the powerhouse that Aruba, Nassau, Punta Cana, Montego Bay, and a handful of others are. It is far more popular with Brits than it is with Americans, as it doesn't offer as much of the attractions and all inclusive resorts that Americans desire on Caribbean vacations.

And, as it has been mentioned, Barbados is indeed a more upscale destination than the others, more along the lines of other smaller resort areas like St. Lucia, and it too expensive for many Americans to visit.

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 15):

Infact yesterday when I went to Bridgetown it was full with tourist. As Speedbird 2155 pointed out with a population of just 260 000 the VFR market accounts for only so much of the traffic to and from the island. So AA DL and US must have some other pax other than the VFR.

Just becaues the island only has 260 000 residents doesn't mean there aren't large foreign populations that constitute VFR traffic. In addition, Bridgetown is one of the most important business centers in the Caribbean. American Airlines sees a very strong amount of business and VFR traffic on BGI routes.

Again, yes, there is indeed some tourist traffic, but it's is not as strong as other Caribbean areas. Just compare the amount of service between Barbados and the US to other Caribbean cities. There are more daily seats between New York City and Santiago, Dominican Republic than between Barbados and the entire mainland US.
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AJMIA
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:15 am

Quoting Canada Mike (Reply 16):
VFR?? I know this isn't referring to visual flight rules...so what's that mean, exactly?

Visiting Friends & Relatives

Islanders traveling to/from Barbados

As opposed to tourists and business passengers


AJMIA

[Edited 2005-12-31 03:24:53]
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md90fan
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:42 am

What aircraft was on the flight?
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globetrekker
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:11 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
BGI is far from being the powerhouse that Aruba, Nassau, Punta Cana, Montego Bay, and a handful of others are. It is far more popular with Brits than it is with Americans, as it doesn't offer as much of the attractions and all inclusive resorts that Americans desire on Caribbean vacations.

And, as it has been mentioned, Barbados is indeed a more upscale destination than the others, more along the lines of other smaller resort areas like St. Lucia, and it too expensive for many Americans to visit.

 checkmark This is 100% correct.
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Max Q
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:28 pm

Upscale is the word, remember the Concorde service they had, can't think of any other Caribbean island's that had that honour.
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Kahala777
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:16 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
Sorry for not being clear. I'm not saying that American tourists don't go to Barbados, they definitley do, but not in huge numbers.

BGI is far from being the powerhouse that Aruba, Nassau, Punta Cana, Montego Bay, and a handful of others are. It is far more popular with Brits than it is with Americans, as it doesn't offer as much of the attractions and all inclusive resorts that Americans desire on Caribbean vacations.

Unfortunately Americans are fed that the only places south of Florida to visit are Jamaica, Aruba, Puerto Rico, D.R., Mexico, and Costa Rica. It doesnt help when you have nickel and dime operators like Apple and Liberty with their $400.00 specials..

From experience Barbados and Antigua are the real deal. The are elegant, sophisticated, and untouristy. The are a true departure from the "Americanized" resorts and destinations that seem to plague the Caribbean so very often.

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captaink
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:27 am

Barbados and other southern islands like St. Lucia, and Grenada are not as popular with american tourist as are islands like DR, Jamaica, the Bahamas and even Aruba. But it is very interesting to see the loads and flights from Europe.

Grenada for example couldn't really sustain a week US A319 flight to PHL, or in the past a daily MIA flight. But for years BA has used 747s and 777s weekly and in peak seasons twice weekly into Grenada. Now they also get served by VS (744), DE(763) and Excel Airways(763) from Europe on a weekly and twice weekly basis. The US VFR market is well handled by JM. Americans don't seem to be very adventurous in visiting out of the ordinary. Or maybe it is as was said, maybe these islands are too expensive.

St Lucia does much better with more services from the US, including US and DL. They also get service from BMI.

Barbados is amazing with their daily European services. I mean you are talking about alot of european widebodies everyday. But they seem to be just fine on the North American front as well. I can't figure out what CO problem was. I guess EWR does not serve very well for the VFR (New York Market) as most live in brooklyn, so they fly AA, BW and JM into JFK. Connections are well served in MIA by AA, US seems to have the North East connections covered. US has daily PHL service and 4 weekly services to CLT.
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wrighbrothers
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:20 pm

Quoting Trintocan (Reply 17):
(eg 3-class BA 777s with First Class into BGI with 2-class birds used to UVF, TAB etc.).

I think you mean 4 class, I think none of the 3 class 777's have F cabins, could be wrong though, and also BA no longer operate 2 class 777's.

This is the BA schedule for the Caribbean area from LGW (using LGW based 777's)

LGW-BGI 9X weekly ( 1X daily plus 2nd flight on Thurs and Sat)
LGW-ANU 1X daily,
LGW-ANU-Grenada 2X weekly (Tues and Fri),
LGW-ANU-Tobago 3X weekly (Mon, Thurs & Sat)
LGW-ANU-St Lucia 2X weekly (Wed and Sun).
LGW-Kingston 3X weekly (Mon,Wed and Fri)

and from LHR (using LHR based long-haul 767's)

LHR-NAS 5X weekly ( Tues,Wed, Fri, Sat and Sun)
LHR-NAS-GCM 4X weekly (Tues,Wed, Fri and Sat
LHR-NAS-PLS 1X weekly ( Sunday)

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JoFMO
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:51 am

If I remember correctly, LHR-BGI was even served by the Concorde sometimes in the past.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:21 am

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 26):
If I remember correctly, LHR-BGI was even served by the Concorde sometimes in the past.

Thats correct, she flew in there many times on charters
 
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mbm3
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:17 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 20):
What aircraft was on the flight?

I believe it was a 73G & they decided to use it on one of the new routes.
I was surprised when I learned that BGI service was ending, but one has to think CO did their math before doing so.

ANU may be next judging on the loads I saw when searching for my annual snowbird flight to escape the cold.
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trintocan
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:33 am

Wrighbrothers, thanks. I stand corrected. I remember seeing that back in 2001 when I flew BA from TAB to LGW - at that time they were doing a charter tie-up which resulted in the two-class, tightly-configured 772s being used to TAB, GND, ANU etc. but not to BGI, which I recall having 3-class 772s. Yes, when they ended that particular arrangement they stopped having 2-class Triple Sevens.

Another thing to consider when thinking about the US travel market is the relative distances of the various Islands from the US. For example, NAS is less than half an hour's flight from MIA, MBJ less than 2 hours away. (I would not consider SJU right now as that is a US territory so a domestic flight and there is a huge VFR market there.) BGI by contrast is 4 hours from MIA (ditto POS, TAB, GND, UVF) and 6 hours from JFK so the cost of getting there is invariably much higher. Unless the said Islands can offer some unique attraction to encourage visitors to pay extra to fly there, they would not be hugely successful in pulling visitors from more northernly Islands.

Insofar as the UK and EU markets are concerned, the greater distance of the entire Caribbean region from Europe means that, relatively speaking, the differences in flight times to MBJ, BGI and HAV, for instance, from LGW are smaller and so airfare costs are broadly similar. EU visitors shopping for a Caribbean holiday would probably not be that greatly concerned by flight times (after all if a short-haul journey were preferred then PMI or TFS may be selected, certainly not the Caribbean!) and so all the Islands would be on a roughly equal footing. The choice then becomes one of whether to go to Barbados, which has a very British feel to it, Antigua for many quiet beaches, Tobago for diving and hiking and so on.

When one considers that fact it becomes easier to see why US visitors tend to visit Islands closer to the US. BGI certainly gets steady US traffic but a lot of it comprises return visitors (it does have high satisfaction and return rates among visitors). AUA may appear to be an exception since it is quite far from the US - as mentioned earlier, it attracts visitors due to its many large casinos, a sort of development that many of the former British islands have been very reluctant to allow.

TrinToCan.
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AEROFAN
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:53 am

But why did CO pull out? Don't tell me they are going to let AA have a monopoly again.
 
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mbm3
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:00 am

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 30):
But why did CO pull out? Don't tell me they are going to let AA have a monopoly again.

I'm sure they pulled out for good reason, perhaps because of low revenue and/or a better opportunity elsewhere in the Carribean. As has been stated earlier, while Barbados is a beautiful place to vacation it is a long way from NYC with a lot of other great sports a lot closer.
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MAH4546
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:07 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 27):

Thats correct, she flew in there many times on charters

They were actually scheduled flights, operating every Saturday.
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captaink
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:24 pm

Years ago, GND was served with 2 class 777, old Club World and WT. But not now, as they are all either 3 o 4 class configured.

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 25):
I think you mean 4 class, I think none of the 3 class 777's have F cabins, could be wrong though, and also BA no longer operate 2 class 777's.

That is correct the 3 class 777 have Club/World Traveller Plus and World Traveller.

I worked with the handling company that handles BA flights into GND, and in my time there, the flights of late were operated with 4 class 777. i.e First/Club/WT+ and WT.
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777gk
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RE: Continental Ending Service To Barbados

Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:41 pm

Bear in mind that the "loads" you see on fare class availability charts and seat maps are not necessarily indicative of the actual booked loads on flights we operate. Generally, the only thing they accurately indicate is whether or not the flight is full. Any other degree from 0-99% cannot be positively represented. One would need access to coair/Shares to see this (proprietary) data.

That said, there has always been the rumor that ANU may get tagged back on to SXM and operate EWR-SXM-ANU-EWR if the route really tanks and we need the lift elsewhere. It has operated independently for some time now to reasonable success, however we still maintain the right to fly SXM-ANU (no local traffic) and would have no problem reverting to this routing if need be.

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